Submissive's Purpose

[Pure]

LS

The list is fine for those who use it, and apparently those who don't are doing fine without it. The topic isn't doing much for me... feel free to continue.

It's fine to discuss activities and bare mechanics of Domination and submission, though it doesn't take into account the larger relationship, Pure.

This whole characterization isn't particularly fair, LS. I didn't bring up the list, nor do I focus on specifics except to show what's on the list others are endorsing. Lists, to me, are anal fetish talk, largely irrelevant to either the guts of relationship or actual disposition of power.

My main interest is in the psychology of domination/submission, not the width of whips, translucency of garments and other items of that totally anal obsessive "new bdsm checklist." The emphasis on 'technique' in sex and bdsm, the mass marketing of manuals, makes it all a technology of social control, as Foucault has pointed out.

That's pretty much where I stand.

Otherwise, you know I enjoy your posts, sweet lambkin.

 

[MissTaken]

I've used the lists, really I have. As an ice breaker. Maybe you're right, Pure, and people take them more seriously. I can't imagine anyone taking them all that seriously, but I'm not one to find a lack of D/s in my world problematic. I'm perfectly fine pigging out on pistachio ice cream together, as it were, and I'm not about to pierce someone precisely because they don't want me to and I like to, I'm more inclined to find me a piercee who loves it. Not because I don't want to impose or impinge, but because it's more fun for me when it's fun.

It was a useful way to see where the other person clocked in, remind myself of a few things I forgot were as nice as they are...(spreader bars....hmmm, have to do that more) and get a sense of what kind of a sick fuck I'm trying to seduce here anyway.

Oh my!

Somebody gets it!

The list thing was an example of how many kinks there are and that using such a thing to determine the ability to connect can be overdone. It is, a topic for conversation. In some established relationships, it can be a meter to gauge experience etc.

And yes!!!! Fun is fun, however any one of us chose to define it?

Now....can we stop nit picking? I am going to tell you how many things are really on that damn list!

 

[MissTaken]

Scenario

It is 4:40 pm on a Friday. She has just driven through rush hour traffic in a major city and is 40 minutes late. She worked all day, is exhausted, hungry and needing a hug and some TLC.

She knocks on the door and no one answers. She notices the door is unlocked and enters. She finds a note. It tells her to take care of her things, undress, get on all fours, apply nipple clips that are on the floor, put on a collar and leash, that is also waiting. The note tells her to go the playroom and pick up something she finds on the floor in her mouth and when in the room, assume the respect position. The something is a riding crop.

Does she roll her eyes and go take a shower? No. She follows the direction. Of course, once in the room, she is disciplined for not giving herself enough time to be prompt. Does she say, "Listen up! I have had a rough day?" No. She accepts the "punishment" in the form of corporal punishment. Yes, she enjoys paddles, belts and floggers and soon is floating.

Over the course of the next couple of ours, they engage in other activities, none of which she expects as she doesn't ever know what the "agenda" is and at no point, does she use a safe word or ask for a break.

So, Pure, as these are all activities she enjoys, is this simply pistachio ice cream on a full tummy?

 

[lark sparrow]

This whole characterization isn't particularly fair, LS. I didn't bring up the list, nor do I focus on specifics except to show what's on the list others are endorsing. Lists, to me, are anal fetish talk, largely irrelevant to either the guts of relationship or actual disposition of power.

My main interest is in the psychology of domination/submission, not the width of whips, translucency of garments and other items of that totally anal obsessive "new bdsm checklist." The emphasis on 'technique' in sex and bdsm, the mass marketing of manuals, makes it all a technology of social control, as Foucault has pointed out.

That's pretty much where I stand.

Otherwise, you know I enjoy your posts, sweet lambkin.

I wasn't following the list conversation in any detail. I was addressing things like this: "Fair enough, but, at the other end of the spectrum, if the sub likes--comes to-- light caning of the front of the thighs and thin lashes applied to the shaven genitals, and the alleged dom/me, too finds this the height of erotism, and having agreed on that, they get together and do it, is anyone dominating the other? Has anyone 'surrendered' or 'given-up or transferred power' to the other'? My answer is 'no' and 'no'; they're simply enacting a common kink, not unlike the two pigging out on much-beloved pistachio ice cream."

This seems to be about activities and seems to ignore the rest of the relationship, and seems to indictate only when a submissive is forced to do something they do not enjoy are they in fact being dominated. I understand the line of thinking, but personally find it short-sighted from the perspective of someone who is in a D/s relationship.

I don't know any Dominants who consistently get off on forcing submissives to do things they absolutely do not enjoy - they may find pleasure in seducing them into new things they will enjoy but resist, they may insist that a certain set of rules and behaviors are followed, but if there is no joy, I think many Dominants will begin to get bored at the very least. If a submissive says s/he has x,y and z as hard limits but chooses a Dominant who's favorites are x, y and z, personally I don't buy that s/he picks that Dom/me simply to be "truly" dominated, but because s/he on some level does want to do x, y and z. As you said, we are not talking about a real slave market here - we are talking about consensual BDSM relationships. Your "surrender" may be about being "forced" to all the nasties you could never do on your own, but in my mind that is no more D/s than the example you gave above - there's just more denial, and points to your kink being degradation, IMO.

 

[Pure]

Hi LS,

you said,
I wasn't following the list conversation in any detail. I was addressing things like this:


"Fair enough, but, at the other end of the spectrum, if the sub likes--comes to-- light caning of the front of the thighs [...] is anyone dominating the other? Has anyone 'surrendered' or 'given-up or transferred power' to the other'? My answer is 'no' and 'no'; they're simply enacting a common kink, not unlike the two pigging out on much-beloved pistachio ice cream."


This seems to be about activities and seems to ignore the rest of the relationship, and seems to indictate only when a submissive is forced to do something they do not enjoy are they in fact being dominated.

I've certainly talked of activities on the bdsm checklist, after it was proposed. From this discussion I see a couple plausible conclusions:

1)While S and M can be defined in terms of acts, as can the other 'perversions', maybe DS cannot.

2)We can say--based on acts-- there is urolagnia, or bestiality, or pain infliction., but for acts on the list, none is necessarily an indicator of dominance.

Example: Whipping of B by A, *might* be A's showing dominance; but maybe not; maybe it's B's dominance [B has ordered A to whip him], or maybe it's neutral. Just a fun thing like skipping rope together.

3)One conclusion this leads to is the well known one that dominance might occur in a relationship in the absence of sex activity. [The dom/me might find none of the sex acts on the list appealing.]

4)More striking, however, is the conclusion that ordinary looking 'vanilla' sex, straight flat-back missionary style might be the prime sexual activity of a dominant and a submissive person.
(Something like what the old fashioned patriarch do--fuck their wives whenever they feel like it.)

5)If these conclusions are valid--what do you think?-- then the makers of 'lists' of 'bdsm' acts, are entirely wrong headed about D and S. Or to put it differently, the 'bdsm list' is not different from any other 'fetish' list; what weird things turn you on.

But to find out these things for a given person would in the least let you know if they, for instance, are 'submissive' or 'surrendering'. Further, from such a list, two folks could agree to the staging of any number of items, without there being any 'dominance.'

6) This might seem odd for some of the scenes, say, of school girls and prostitutes. But it's not. Those things are just like plays. If you play the role of schoolgirl, the 'role' figure does submit to the principal-figure, but the role-player is not necssarily submissive in the least. (Just as an actor who plays a coward, is not necessarily a coward.)

Thanks for stimulating some thoughts, Lark S.



PS: the question 'what sorts of things--events, episodes-- show 'dominance' or true service by a submitting person, then remains open, though in general I believe one can say that you serve me, if you do things I want done, in the ways I want them--esp. in the cases where there is lack of agreement.

I want an hot breakfast before going out to the fields to work; you don't really want to get up at 5am to cook it, but that's the function you have assumed. You want to 'do it right' and will be pleased to have 'served if I leave the house satisfied and appreciative. (I'm not asking for breakfast just to assign you something unpleasant for you, but simply because I want to start the workday with a good meal. Your pleasure or not is irrelevant, except in the broad sense of 'pleasure'/satisfaction in service.)

 

[Pure]

Hi Miss T

you said,


She follows the direction. Of course, once in the room, she is disciplined for not giving herself enough time to be prompt. Does she say, "Listen up! I have had a rough day?" No. She accepts the "punishment" in the form of corporal punishment. Yes, she enjoys paddles, belts and floggers and soon is floating.

Over the course of the next couple of ours, they engage in other activities, none of which she expects as she doesn't ever know what the "agenda" is and at no point, does she use a safe word or ask for a break.

So, Pure, as these are all activities she enjoys, is this simply pistachio ice cream on a full tummy?

If my conclusions in the previous post are valid (no specified, sexual act is intrinsically one of submission), we cannot tell anything about what's happened in respect of dominance; we know she's been whipped and 'disciplined' and got off on it. She is perhaps masochistic.

Yes, the 'hot' activities for her are not dissimilar to her being given a bit of a new kind of ice cream, which she discovers she really enjoys.

Best,
J.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Another bump

for the sheer perversity.

 

[Pet4you]

my version

To the world, being submissive lets everyone else play first..

in my world, being a submissive, is making sure my mate, my family is okay before me.. Putting them before my needs.
Sexually, i perfer my mate to have fun, before i do...

so i see my submissive purpose is to take care of what i have,
and see them smile.
Collaberate my ideas with them, and let them see what i see..
Being submissive can be a sterotype,
for example: i told my one friend im submissive, and he assumed i like rape play.. I dont.. detest it.
Just the word itself, cause people to think the bad things..

i hate having to try to get them to understand me.. the only i know how to.. is
use a military example: you say jump... i ask how high..
you say go clean the latrien, i ask how clean do you want it.

if you want an example of sex.. well its more like.. heres my hands, please tie it up.
please dont let me try and climb away, when your pleasuring me..

this word, submissive, its double edge sword to people.. because if you dont understand it, you have to explain it, and then get the feeling of " well that didnt go out well"

you know what i mean?

 

[Richard49]

bumped

 

[slut_4daddy]

To me, being a submissive is about opening up and exploring new things, being willing to le the other person lead. But more than that (becuase often, I take the lead in sugesting things) it's just this need to let go and to explore a side of yourself that maybe doesn't have too many opportunties to be expressed.

Submission is a mystery. Submisson is a willingness. Submission is a desire that I can't explain.

A submissive's purpose is nothing to a submissive. that is to say, a submissive chooses a dom/domme to suit his/her purpose and a dom/domme choses a submissive to serve his/her purpose. So a submissive's purpose depends on the Dom/domme's requirements. A submissive has no 'purpose' to his or herself.

I don't know if that made sence exacly. I'll try again when I have more sleep.

 

[YinandYang]

The purpose that *A* submissive has that fits for Me is...
To desire and need to complete the circle of Domination and submission...the desire and need to give up the amount of control and responsibility that the Dominant desires and needs to take.
To serve the Dominant in ways that enhances the lifestyle of both within the structure of pride and self respect.
To be the reflection of the training of the One who holds them in safety and in strength.
Their purpose is to give and to take...honestly...openly and without guilt or deception.

I all the replies I have to quote Shadowdreams, because its the one I most resonate with. I feel that the two halves do complete the circle, each one giving and each one taking in an equal way. To someone who doesn't understand the feelings and needs associated with submitting, I guess it would seem one sided. I see it as equality, he likes to control, and I like to be controlled. So we are both winners in a wonderful consentional way. The actual purpose of a submissive is as big as the spectrum of different people out there, I don't think there can be an overall description.

 

[jdmct]

sub's purpose

Having the strength to surrender

 

[Deadly Guardian]

My souls purpose is to make my happy be it being whipped flogged cut or anything my mind comes up with. she lives for my happiness and I enjoy her pleasure in doing so

 

[Richard49]

bumped