Switching for Service

[catalina_francisco]

Originally Posted by catalina_francisco:

LOL, well unfortunately in my world, deciding my Dominant is wrong to ask something of me 'I' do not consider submissive

first, i'd never think my Master "wrong" to demand (my Master does not "ask" me to do anything) anything of me, and no where did i say or imply this. unnatural, strange, confusing, completely opposed to who HE is and what HE belives, yes. but wrong? no. second, as i tried to explain above, my Master defines for me what is and is not submissive. if i say something is NOT submissive, that is because by my Master's definition and beliefs, it is not.

and thus within my right to refuse

you know tha i am a slave, and as such have no rights. also, probably one of the very few things your Master and mine have in common, would be their reactions should we ever refuse them. that "no" or "i don't think so" would be the last words to come from this body.

or claim I can't do because I am 'too submissive',

nor would i say "i can't" in response to any demand he made of me. and again, no where did i say or imply this. i stated quite clearly, that it would simply be impossible for me to obey. physically, i could not do it, no more than i could lift 500 lbs if ordered to do so. perhaps for you this is hard to believe, but maybe that is because you are having a difficult time thinking of a slave so unlike yourself. i am a submissive, which, in the world my Master and i inhabit, does not mean "i do what i'm told no matter what", it means my natural instinct is to submit, always. to submit and to obey a command to perform any random action are two different things. not simply according to me, as you continuously assert, but according to the One who owns me.

and consider asking release over,

this appears to be the only statement of mine you did not misinterpret or twist into something beyond all recognition. yes, i would seriously consider begging release over something like this, although as i said that would bring me no relief. either way i will have lost the Master i knew and loved. this is something HE himself would wish me to beg release over.

just isn't going to wash or be seen as being a submissive slave in a no liimits relationship as we agreed to.

and that is how it goes in your relationship, understood. in mine, if i had the ability to top, much less actually carried it out, i would not be a submissive in his eyes and therefore not the slave he desired.

If he commands, and I do as commanded, I am submitting to him and his will....

my Master believes there is a difference between the act of submitting (which anyone can do), and the state of BEING submissive. my Master does not wish me to simply submit...He needs me to also be submissive to the core.

if I tell him I am too submissive to do it,

again, where did i say or imply i would dare tell my Master i am too submissive to do anything?

he is going to find a nasty way to remind me what the exact meaning of submission and submitting is, and who decides what is and isn't submission in this relationship, and what is required to demonstrate that submissiveness I am craving to claim. I know which alternative I prefer.

to repeat, just as your Master decides what is and isn't submission in YOUR relationship, my Master decides what is and is not submission in ours. obeying, or being able to obey, a command to top anyone could not be further from what HE has clearly defined as submission.


so Catalina, what exactly is in "black and white"?? where did i say or imply the things you seem to believe i said?

i never claimed perfection or anything close to it, although i do disagree that the various states of Dominance, submission, slavery, etc., cannot be "instant." however, that does not mean there is not MUCH room for growth. you seem to have this idea that i think myself better or more "slavelike" than you, and then take the offensive by continuously disrespecting my Master, myself, and our ways, in thread after thread. i hate to put all of this out in Etoile's thread, but these things need to be said, and i respect your Master's wish for me not to contact you privately.
slaves, true slaves, are few and far between in this lifestyle, as you probably know. so when i first began posting here, i gained comfort from your presence. it seemed that while our Masters had different ways, we still had much in common and (i thought) much we could learn from one another. but while up until recently i had nothing but respect for you, and admired you and your slavery in many ways, you otoh had no such high regard for me and more and more seem determined to put me down at every turn. disagreement, even constant disagreement, is one thing, slander and disrespect are something else altogether. i wish you no ill will Catalina, i just ask that you show me the common courtesy of not twisting the meaning of my words, and of not disrespecting my Master (yes, implying a Master is not concerned for his slave's welfare, or lacks intelligence, qualifies as disrespect), as i would not disrespect yours no matter how different his ways. it's really not that difficult for us all to stay positive.

my apologies to Etoile.

Let's just agree to disagree where the line of submission begins and ends for us personally....you say you go by your Master's limits and orders and have no limits or rights as a slave in that context and yet if he would ask something of you which didn't fit your thoughts on his dominance or your submission you could refuse him and be fully justified and within your right to do so....that to me is exercising and having rights to decide what is and isn't acceptable. To clarify, so there is no misunderstanding on where I see and live the difference is I knowingly surrendered my rights and limits to him'listened to his warnings that it then meant he had all say over what happened and still gave them up, and if he says he expects something of me, it is not for me to judgfe whether that is a justified order in terms of dominance or submission because as he is the Dominant, if it is his desire it is dominant for him to order it and submissive for me to fulfil it, or at least accept his request without judgement on him as a Dominant, and try to find a way to obey.

I might not always succeed, maybe it takes a long process of working toward, and perhaps I will fail over and over, but my submission means I accept his right as a Dominant to decide what is desired and do not delegate it into the 'Dominant' and 'not dominant' list and act accordingly. I really don't have anything more to say on it as it is clear we come from different POV on the definition of submission, and the mental aspects required, as well in accepting for the submissive slave in TPE there is no choice or right according to my POV of what constitutes dominant orders and activities, only his. What is right for you is good as is what is right for us...that is the beauty of difference and discussion of such. As you have said though, your Master can and may change his mind about some things at a future date and you try and keep that in mind....he may one day change about his view of whether this was a dominant request or not?

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

oh gosh you have nothing to apologize for Etoile. this is a great topic...forces us to imagine the unimagineable. that is why after thinking about it, then talking to my Master, then thinking about it some more...

Thank you, osg, that's what I was going for. Making ourselves think about the hardest things we can. Finding those fears that we have and putting them under a microscope. That it even sparked discussion in RL for you is awesome.

And I'm able to see both osg's and Catalina's points of view, as well as my own. I was with Daddy this past weekend (yum) and I mentioned this thread to em, as well as my own thoughts on the matter. Sure enough, my thoughts are in line with eirs. So each couple has their own perspective, and they are each valid for each other. Debating them can be fun too, as a way to explore different paths.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Catalina...remember that whole putting words into my mouth thing i mentioned? yet again you seem to have completely ignored my words, and instead jumped to (false) conclusions based on your inability to understand our (Daddy and i) ways. repeatedly i have explained, my ideas/definitions of Dominance and submission, come from HIM. from all he has instilled in me and taught me. i am sure your Master has done the same with you, defining for you clearly just what is and what is not submission, just what is and what is not Dominance.

also repeatedly, i have stated that i would/could never refuse my Master anything. beyond the fact that i have no right to do so, beyond the fact that such refusal goes against my natural instinct, i am just not that crazy. Daddy would string me from the nearest tree and whip me unconscious if i ever refused him anything. it would drive him into a rage. so why you insist on repeatedly stating that i would refuse him, baffles and frustrates me. refusing a command, and being physically unable to obey a command, are two different things. despite the fact that a command from him for me to top in any fashion would horrify me and break my heart (and yes sometime afterwards i'd likely beg release), i would try my best to obey, but try is all i could do. i just would not be able to do it. if i WERE able to top anyone, my Master never would have claimed me as his slave.

as to him changing his mind about what is Dominance (or what is submission), this is something neither he nor i can forsee happening. this would not be a case evolving tastes, or interests, or even morals, as is the case with his personal limits. when it comes to Dominance and submission (and many other things for that matter), my Master's beliefs are very much set in stone. and as his slave, his lifestyle beliefs have become my gospel truth.

To clarify, so there is no misunderstanding on where I see and live the difference is I knowingly surrendered my rights and limits to him'listened to his warnings that it then meant he had all say over what happened and still gave them up,

there is no difference between us here.

and if he says he expects something of me, it is not for me to judge whether that is a justified order in terms of dominance or submission because as he is the Dominant, if it is his desire it is dominant for him to order it and submissive for me to fulfil it, or at least accept his request without judgement on him as a Dominant, and try to find a way to obey.

here we disagree, because i have taken on the beliefs of my Master, as you have taken on the beliefs of yours. my Master believes that one's desires are part of what makes one Dominant, or not. so if a person desires certain things that go against his idea of Dominance, they are not Dominant in his view. likewise, if a person has certain desires or abilities (like the ability to top) they are not submissive in his view. so for me to be able to obey a command to top would not be submissive, it would be anti-submissive according to Daddy and therefore according to me. for you, Catalina, to be able to obey a command to top would be submissive because that is how your Master defines submission. neither of us is wrong or misguided, neither is more or less slave than the other, we have both simply embraced the beliefs and ways of our respective Masters. that is how it should be. my only wish is that such differences could be discussed in an honest, respectful way.