Taken In Hand

[stirbird]

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirbird
Two things:

1. TIH has no religious spin to "justify" or make acceptable the sort of relationship the enthusiasts like.

2. Unlike most Christain bdsm'ers and Goreans, TIH people for the most part--there are exceptions in every group, of course--don't press a misogynistic or male superiority (as in all men are dominant, all women are sub) agenda. I like Live and Let Live-ers--people who do what they like but do not claim the whole world should be (or really are, in secret) exactly as they are.

Occasionally, though, this does mask stuff like autism and schizophrenia and paranoia.

Teasing out the threads of habit and addiction and pathology from choice can be difficult.

The more virulent the response, the more difficult the discussion.

It's like asking someone to stop smoking. Yes, sometimes it does take giving it up for a day to make the point.

Though sometimes you have no right to ask someone to give up something for a day and that's also a fact.

------------------------------


But everyone should be able to ask themselves...what would you not be able to give up for a day, and why?

I'm sorry. I didn't get plastered last night but I'm still not following you. What's the connection between not having a male-superior philosophy or angenda and masking "autism and schizophrenia and paranoia?"

 

[Recidiva]

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirbird
Two things:

1. TIH has no religious spin to "justify" or make acceptable the sort of relationship the enthusiasts like.

2. Unlike most Christain bdsm'ers and Goreans, TIH people for the most part--there are exceptions in every group, of course--don't press a misogynistic or male superiority (as in all men are dominant, all women are sub) agenda. I like Live and Let Live-ers--people who do what they like but do not claim the whole world should be (or really are, in secret) exactly as they are.

I'm sorry. I didn't get plastered last night but I'm still not following you. What's the connection between not having a male-superior philosophy or angenda and masking "autism and schizophrenia and paranoia?"

That's a good question, do people choose to explore or escape their fears, do they enter to follow a path or to blaze a path?

The answers are different for lots of people, I'd like to believe that those who are practicing do so because they're honoring the urge to make connections and bonds to other people, to help each other along.

But there are those who only want to make themselves right and other people wrong, and unfortunately when you build intimacy it is a very difficult thing to tell one from the other.

I've met my share of people who thought they were masters who were in fact addicted or sick. So thinking you're a master or convincing other people you're a master, does not make it so.

If that were the case, methamphetamine would be the only True God.

 

[stirbird]

All right, lol, I give up. My best guess is either that you've got some sort of unusual axe to grind that you understand perfectly but that would not necessarily be obvious to an outsider or (b) your're practicing to be the new Terry Practchett. If the axe is it, it's so enormous that I can't seen the grindstone, because the shine is blotting out my vision. This is not meant as a criticism. I just was curious about what in the world your point meant (I honestly thought the first one was a mis-post--I did that the other day: posted the wrong pics to the wrong thread) and even more curious about the fact that despite requesting clarification, I cannot grasp what you are referring to. Serves me right for posting in a bdsm thread... I guess.

 

[Recidiva]

All right, lol, I give up. My best guess is either that you've got some sort of unusual axe to grind that you understand perfectly but that would not necessarily be obvious to an outsider or (b) your're practicing to be the new Terry Practchett. If the axe is it, it's so enormous that I can't seen the grindstone, because the shine is blotting out my vision. This is not meant as a criticism. I just was curious about what in the world your point meant (I honestly thought the first one was a mis-post--I did that the other day: posted the wrong pics to the wrong thread) and even more curious about the fact that despite requesting clarification, I cannot grasp what you are referring to. Serves me right for posting in a bdsm thread... I guess.

I'll go for being the next Terry Pratchett! Oooh! Oooh!

 

[Pure]

hi stirbird

Stir,

True the main TIH folks do not say "God wants it thus, " but that's a secondary issue. They do say that religious rationales don't bother them. What is the TIH rationale IYO.?

The evangelicals marriage manuals do say the man is in charge, but of course he treats his wife as 'one flesh' with him. As husband is to wife, Christ is to the Church; that's leadership, not simple superiority.

What strikes me as the same is the insistence that the resulting 'white hot sex' for both is one of the main reasons for the two to set up this male-dominant arrangement.

---
for roscoe,

i could swear i've heard you disavow interest in 'white hot sex' for the other [your partner], and generally disinterest in 'pleasuring' the other.

 

[stirbird]

Stir,

True the main TIH folks do not say "God wants it thus, " but that's a secondary issue. They do say that religious rationales don't bother them. What is the TIH rationale IYO.?

The evangelicals marriage manuals do say the man is in charge, but of course he treats his wife as 'one flesh' with him. As husband is to wife, Christ is to the Church; that's leadership, not simple superiority.

What strikes me as the same is the insistence that the resulting 'white hot sex' for both is one of the main reasons for the two to set up this male-dominant arrangement.

---
for roscoe,

i could swear i've heard you disavow interest in 'white hot sex' for the other [your partner], and generally disinterest in 'pleasuring' the other.

I don't think Taken in Hand is organized enough to have an official rationale. It's just one woman. I've been in contact with her on and off for years (she wanted me to write for their site but that was at a time when they were getting a lot of feminist riff-raff in and I didn't want to become the target of their ire at that time--I become the target of ire all too easily on my own, thank you!) and she just likes Mdom-Fsub sex. Her spin on power relationships is cool in that it attracts people who would be put off or intimidated by bdsm and all its fetishitic and poloymorphously perverse trappings. But the thought of doing something traditional is not intimidating at all, and so a lot of people not comfortable with leather garb and dungeons and latex like it. It's a kind of low key S&M that many hundreds of people otherwise would never enjoyed because they would have thought themselves weird or sick if they did one of the other versions.

I admit, there isn't much there for Msubs or Fdoms, let alone gay kinkers, but there's not meant to be. After all, you don't feature flower arrangeing at a crawdad cooking class just to be politically correct or you'll drive all the crawfish cooks away. So the site attracts a crowd with limited sexual interests (hetero, with mdom-fsub emphasis) that is very enthusiastic and curious about what it likes.

I personally like the site because the attitudes and ideas there are often "freshly minted" and not bogged down with various bdsm philosophies about right or wrong things to do, say, or think and there's a feeling of new discovery there that you don't find on many similar sites these days.

 

[stirbird]

I'll go for being the next Terry Pratchett! Oooh! Oooh!

We are going to need one soon. The original is getting very old!

 

[Pure]

Hi Stir,

You said in part,

//I admit, there isn't much there for Msubs or Fdoms, let alone gay kinkers, but there's not meant to be. After all, you don't feature flower arrangeing at a crawdad cooking class just to be politically correct or you'll drive all the crawfish cooks away. So the site attracts a crowd with limited sexual interests (hetero, with mdom-fsub emphasis) that is very enthusiastic and curious about what it likes.

I personally like the site because the attitudes and ideas there are often "freshly minted" and not bogged down with various bdsm philosophies about right or wrong things to do, say, or think and there's a feeling of new discovery there that you don't find on many similar sites these days.//

----

I generally agree with your analysis. By using the phrase 'taken in hand', she avoided some bdsm pitfalls (e.g. 'what is a 'dom'?'). So in some ways she is mild bdsm without the fetish. On a couple scores, like planned rape, she is left or more radical than many bdsm folk, though she's scarcely the inventor of 'consensual non consent' (episodic nonconsent; or lack of explicit consent, but in a consensual context).

She apparently refers the switchers femdom/msub to other sites and in fact very few are around. Since there is no rationale offered [for mdom] except choice, it's hard to argue. By affinity she's closest to those claiming mdom arrangements are 'natural.' In her words, they 'feel right,' etc.

I agree the site is fresh (I like that), and no doubt that is attractive to those put off by bdsm formulas, people like roscoe. The site [SP] is literate and tolerant and encourages people to talk.

Of her several rationales, the 'relationship' one, with ultimate reference to hot sex seems to be central.

Sarah said That said, let me explain how I see Taken In Hand.
A good relationship is a harmonious one. It is one in which the spouses can talk to each other and feel accepted. It is one in which problems are solved and there is a lot of love and kindness and joy. It is one in which the spouses feel appreciated and cared for.

It is one in which the spouses feel happy and vibrantly alive as opposed to flat and bored. It is a connected, deeply engaged, intimate relationship, as opposed to a disconnected, distant relationship lacking intimacy. It is one that is dynamic and evolving, as opposed to static and stereotypical. It is one in which important needs are met. It is one that facilitates improvement at the individual level, at the level of the relationship, and more widely.

I strongly believe that for a marriage to be good in the sense I have just described, a good sexual connection is essential. When the sexual connection goes awry, a marriage is in danger. When people feel sexually unfulfilled and bored with each other, they feel flat and lack energy, or they get their excitement elsewhere. When everything is going well in the sexual relationship, it makes people feel happy and alive. It makes them feel good about the other person. It dramatically increases the amount of positive feeling in the relationship.

So for me, Taken In Hand is at least partly about creating the sort of relationships that instead of sliding into stale, sexless, platonic friendships (if they are friendly at all!), stay vibrant, exciting, passionate, and white hot in the long term.

There is no recipe for how to create an exciting long-term sexual connection, and what will work for one couple will not work for another. What will work for one couple at one time may not work for the same couple a year later. Individuals have different preferences, and their preferences evolve and change over time. How you relate best with one person may not be the same as how you relate best with another. But if you don't have a sexual connection, what you have is a platonic friendship, and that is not enough for a good marriage.

On Taken In Hand, we are, amongst other things, exploring the power of consensual control, dominance, and ‘coercion’ to foster an exciting sexual connection.

This line of thought is fairly common in the bdsm community and this forum. In inverted form it's similar to Netzach, but of course they're not interested in the Netzach's. As you say, the site--diplomatically, of course--avoids 'kink'. By that, by calling for monogamy, and by going only mdom, they link with many traditional Christians (a plus or minus, depending on your pov).

In terms of US and England, her approach is somehow betraying of roots, since the SM mvt started among gay persons, the 'leather' folks. It's ironic that now Sarah says, in effect, 'we've got our het/mdom thing here, and maybe you'd be happier elsewhere--nothing personal, you understand.'

Another thought, in leaving: Can one empty SM of 'kink'? Just have good clean vanilla Christian spankings?

 

[Red Sonja]

Another thought, in leaving: Can one empty SM of 'kink'? Just have good clean vanilla Christian spankings?

Check out the blog, loving domestic discipline or Loving DD at blogspot, for claims that you can have spankings without any sexual overtones...

In my opinion, yeah right sure...

 

[rosco rathbone]

I keep re-visiting this site and it keeps getting better and better.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I keep re-visiting this site and it keeps getting better and better.

This Article, for instance. Outstanding.

 

[stirbird]

This Article, for instance. Outstanding.

You're right, that's an excellent article. The writer got a certain relationship dynamic common in all sorts of strong power-exchange relationships exactly right. Although once in a while the sub woman is right and the man just isn't interested in or able to control her, you can't decide that very quickly, as in the space of a few months. You've got to give the process considerable time and patience before the actual dynamic becomes apparant.

 

[JupitersGirl]

Is it just my computer for some reason, or has www.takeninhand.com been taken down?

 

[LunarKitten]

Is it just my computer for some reason, or has www.takeninhand.com been taken down?

Latest message is they are having server problems

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Not to worry there are other places to be taken in hand.

Latest message is they are having server problems

 

[raven2]

Not to worry there are other places to be taken in hand.

And just where would they be?

 

[Blushing Bottom]

How about over the knee of some yummy Dom who really knows how to swing a paddle?

And just where would they be?

 

[shy slave]

How about over the knee of some yummy Dom who really knows how to swing a paddle?

You have the best of ideas

 

[raven2]

You have the best of ideas

I would have to go along with that.

 

[Hisbabydoll26]

This Article, for instance. Outstanding.

*have to give you a hug* Have been struggling to help him understand what I want. Saw your original post..so visited the site. So much there ....it's hard to stay focused. Anyway..then saw this....post from you...and viola..yeah...I'm not helping him here and this article is sooooooooo what is happening. I'm so frustrated *pout*

 

[Mr. Mann]

Dear Group:

I am only recently registered, and this is my first post.

However, I am moved to reply on this topic.

I and my wife have only recently discovered each other's interest in certain aspects of BDSM and TIH. It has been, and looks as if it will continue to be, a very fascinating and exciting adventure.

The beginning is very difficult. Getting "kinky" is one thing. Changes are, or at least may be, limited to certain times and places. A little "tie me up", a little "nipple clamping", a "little spank me hard"... all fun and games to put in heavy rotation. Certainly, some folks do live BDSM (or elements of it) as a 24/7 lifestyle... but it seems that most folks tend to compartmentalize it to a large extent.

However, getting in to TIH and certain aspects of spanking as a "lifestyle" (more than the occasional purely kinky spank) force you to deal with all sorts of issues: role expectations, power and control issues, domination and submission issues, emotional issues, etc. - but in many ways, perhaps, without the trappings and dressings of more "formalized" aspects of BDSM. In some wyas this can be both good, and bad. Some folks don't relate to much of what falls under the label of BDSM", and yet the path is one where folks could use some structure to guide them until they figure what they want to take or leave.

The hand smacking that beautiful upturned bottom is only the surface. There are often more fundamental deeper issues at play. The sum is greater than the parts.

Personally speaking, my wife has had to "come out"... which is a process.

She's had to admit to herself that "this" wasn't just an idle, not-so-latent, fantasy. It was sort of "A BIG THING" for her. She had to come to grips with the whole "what does this mean about me?" question.

THEN, once she got her own head around it, she had to start testing the waters with me. (Huge risk!) I picked up on some of this, but as she downplayed things in testing the waters, I failed to recognize the significance and magnitude of what was in her heart and her head.

Holding someone down and spanking them until they cry and acting mad at them as if they are "in trouble" while they squirm and protest and resist is something that I am not going to try in a cavilier manner. I *need* her express permission and consent. Otherwise, it is something else other than a "good thing".

My wife also needs to know that I am doing this because she wants it. If I had just hauled off one day, yelled at and lectured her, and spanked her wonderful bottom while she fought and squirmed and then made her stand in the corner.... all on my own with no inkling that she would appreciate such a thing... prior to her telling me she wanted me to..... then in her head she's thinking "What?!?! That SOB just did that not knowing I really like it! - so I didn't like it! What an a-hole!"

So... all this to say that it is a weird transition. And it requires dealing with all sorts of issues that aren't easy to articulate.

At the beginning, she pretty much has to "top from the bottom" (if you'll allow a new guy the use of that term of art). She has to give express permission and consent.. so that I know what is okay and desired... AND so that she knows that I know...

....but at some point, I have to take things and run with it, because it doesn't work if she has to lead me by the hand, and I will get frustrated in trying to take the lead if she keeps interrupting me.

Anyway... I don't know how well I've managed to articulate things here. However, I wanted to offer some help and insight for others. I've been dong tons of reading all over the place and have benefited greatly from others sharing their personal stories and observations. (This forum especially as well as TIH.) I just wanted to come in with the same spirit.


Spankingly yours,
Mr. Mann

 

[Mr. Mann]

Hee hee.

I notice that I am a virgin again!

Does that mean I have to sit on the back row?

 

[FurryFury]

Dear Group:

I am only recently registered, and this is my first post.

However, I am moved to reply on this topic.

I and my wife have only recently discovered each other's interest in certain aspects of BDSM and TIH. It has been, and looks as if it will continue to be, a very fascinating and exciting adventure.

The beginning is very difficult. Getting "kinky" is one thing. Changes are, or at least may be, limited to certain times and places. A little "tie me up", a little "nipple clamping", a "little spank me hard"... all fun and games to put in heavy rotation. Certainly, some folks do live BDSM (or elements of it) as a 24/7 lifestyle... but it seems that most folks tend to compartmentalize it to a large extent.

However, getting in to TIH and certain aspects of spanking as a "lifestyle" (more than the occasional purely kinky spank) force you to deal with all sorts of issues: role expectations, power and control issues, domination and submission issues, emotional issues, etc. - but in many ways, perhaps, without the trappings and dressings of more "formalized" aspects of BDSM. In some wyas this can be both good, and bad. Some folks don't relate to much of what falls under the label of BDSM", and yet the path is one where folks could use some structure to guide them until they figure what they want to take or leave.

The hand smacking that beautiful upturned bottom is only the surface. There are often more fundamental deeper issues at play. The sum is greater than the parts.

Personally speaking, my wife has had to "come out"... which is a process.

She's had to admit to herself that "this" wasn't just an idle, not-so-latent, fantasy. It was sort of "A BIG THING" for her. She had to come to grips with the whole "what does this mean about me?" question.

THEN, once she got her own head around it, she had to start testing the waters with me. (Huge risk!) I picked up on some of this, but as she downplayed things in testing the waters, I failed to recognize the significance and magnitude of what was in her heart and her head.

Holding someone down and spanking them until they cry and acting mad at them as if they are "in trouble" while they squirm and protest and resist is something that I am not going to try in a cavilier manner. I *need* her express permission and consent. Otherwise, it is something else other than a "good thing".

My wife also needs to know that I am doing this because she wants it. If I had just hauled off one day, yelled at and lectured her, and spanked her wonderful bottom while she fought and squirmed and then made her stand in the corner.... all on my own with no inkling that she would appreciate such a thing... prior to her telling me she wanted me to..... then in her head she's thinking "What?!?! That SOB just did that not knowing I really like it! - so I didn't like it! What an a-hole!"

So... all this to say that it is a weird transition. And it requires dealing with all sorts of issues that aren't easy to articulate.

At the beginning, she pretty much has to "top from the bottom" (if you'll allow a new guy the use of that term of art). She has to give express permission and consent.. so that I know what is okay and desired... AND so that she knows that I know...

....but at some point, I have to take things and run with it, because it doesn't work if she has to lead me by the hand, and I will get frustrated in trying to take the lead if she keeps interrupting me.

Anyway... I don't know how well I've managed to articulate things here. However, I wanted to offer some help and insight for others. I've been dong tons of reading all over the place and have benefited greatly from others sharing their personal stories and observations. (This forum especially as well as TIH.) I just wanted to come in with the same spirit.


Spankingly yours,
Mr. Mann

I raise my glass in your honor Mr. Mann!

Few men with women who suddenly discover what they want and need bother to research and study the issues involved.

Good for you both!

Fury

 

[raven2]

Hee hee.

I notice that I am a virgin again!

Does that mean I have to sit on the back row?

Not for very long if you keep practicing.

 

[babiesmiles]

Not for very long if you keep practicing.

Virginity is like perfection ... soon or later one have to lose it