Taken In Hand

[rosco rathbone]

"“patriarchy is a tyrannical but nearly invisible social order based on an oppressive paradigm of dominance and submission fetishizing class and status. Patriarchy’s benefits are accrued according to a rigid hierarchy at the top of which are rich honky males and at the bottom of which are poor women of color.”

I honestly don’t think any person here cares at all that you personally enjoy being a submissive. I think most of us can grasp and even empathize with why some women do embrace such a sexual role. What we ARE saying is that your “choice” to be on the receiving end of a can of sexual whoop-ass is part of the system of oppression outlined above. It’s a “choice” that is indicative of all women’s subordinate status within the Patriarchy and it’s a “choice” that ultimately affects more than just you - especially when your submissive compadres start singing the praise of sexualized violence all over the internet.

As far as the revolution goes, I’ve always found that to be a revolutionary, you have to be willing to think about more than just your own personal liberty. Revolution is about the common good. It’s about fighting for something bigger than your orgasm, for instance. "

 

[evesdream]

"..is part of the system of oppression outlined above" lol

One hallmark of this person's type of revolution is that the time for personal freedom never ever comes.

 

[alice_underneath]

Here's an interesting discussion of the taken in hand article "when rape is a gift" at a left-feminist blog: http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/02/23/when-rape-is-a-gift/

Ohhhhhhhhh my god, Mr. Rathbone. I'll have to spend at least twice my usual time on the treadmill today after visiting that link.

I graduated from high school at the end of the decade of Women's Liberation, and those are the voices of my life.

East Coast liberal intelligentsia. My teachers, fellow students, co-workers, peers.

The Great Feminist Lie: "It's all about choice."

The liberal feminist message should be all about choice. But it's not. It's about demanding respect for the feminist view of appropriate male and female roles, and denigrating everyone else's.

Response #35 at that link:

"The hue and cry over sexual freedom is disingenuous at best, and often taken up with slavering jaws by the very lowest and most evil of male sexual predators, such as child molesters and serial killers. I wouldn’t want to align myself with their kind. How can there be this talk of sexual ‘freedom’ in a society where women can write and say out loud that they know they fucking belong to their fucking husbands, as if they were pieces of real estate with vaginas?

I have an insight for those who are afraid of losing their sexual freedom: You’ve already relinquished it if you think you are a submissive, and thus must allow those of us who don’t buy into it to feel free to condemn or criticize the sick and twisted society that presented this lifestyle to you as a legitimate choice, rather than what it is, which is something more along the lines of an obsession or a fetish rather than healthy desire. Not that I think it should be against the law. I just think you should be a little more self-critical.

Strong and self-destructive sexual excitement is not some god-given right, it’s something you learned thatt ignited your desire for whatever reasons. The sick and horrible state of sex today is not some utopia of freedom and love, but is motivated and managed by male adolescent fantasies come horribly to life, fantasies that have their shallow and obvious roots in male desire to control and hurt you."

This is exactly what RJMasters was talking about on the Dom Training thread, in discussing the impact of feminism on American society.

********
Therefore the gay men, lesbians, FemDoms, and very SM oriented and perverse M/f couples were forced into a subculture.
********

Nods in agreement. What I am saying today is...you can start adding in D/s oriented M/f to that list more and more, because today they are also being forced into the subculture. The attachment of "male shovenist pig" to domiant masculinity and the attachment of "weak & pathetic" to the submissive woman in the attitude of most in today's society has generated so much negativism and shame. I merely suggesting that this is why D/s resonates with so many people. I am also suggesting that it may explain why there are so many seemingly vanilla types seeking to be part of the subculture, because they see a chance for acceptance and expression of who they are.

I am not suggesting that the persecution that forced gay men, lesbians, FemDoms, and very SM oriented and perverse M/f couples because of their sexuality is the same type of persecution that is forcing D/s oriented M/f.

But I can see a connection as to why so many are coming in droves. I can also see how this creates such a huge chasm mentally, as many of these (vanilla dominants/submissives) do not have alot in common with why others may have been forced into the subculture.

If you stop and think about it...it kinda of explains alot. Think of the ramifications and the consequences of vanilla men and women who have a desire to be masculine or submissive, but are considered outcast and look on in a negative light. They then get a wiff of D/s. Not a D/s which came out of a leather community, but a D/s that allows them to identify with their own dominant or submissive nature respectively.

What you get is a bunch of vanilla people, who have no understanding or "context" of how the subculture came to be. All they know is, they identify with the D/s and seek after it. Not for just acceptance, but because they finally see a chance being who they are and a chance to find their opposite like minded SO.

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=16409168&postcount=64

 

[alice_underneath]

"As far as the revolution goes, I’ve always found that to be a revolutionary, you have to be willing to think about more than just your own personal liberty. Revolution is about the common good. It’s about fighting for something bigger than your orgasm, for instance. "

The Chairman has apparently been reborn in drag.

And the new Five Black Categories are: patriarchal men, dominant men, paternalistic men, sexual predators, and sadists.

* tying the red scarf around my neck *



Alice

 

[Mr. Mann]

femifascists!!

RANT WARNING (my first here - woo hoo) !!

It IS supposed to be about CHOICE.... but femifascists are about nothing but choosing for women and it makes me angrier than a rabid beaver!!

She-woman, man-hating clubs! - The same folks who look down their noses at my wife because she CHOOSES to put her career to the side for a time in favor of being a mother. Isn't that HER choice? Isn't that OUR choice as parents? Yet the world isn't short of these brainwashed femifascists who get all snotty and act like women who choose to place family before profesion are somehow "less of a woman"!

WTF!?!?

I went out with a few ladies who happened to work as exotic dancers many years ago. I recall how some of these femifascists would picket the clubs, would infiltrate the clubs and generate embellished (or outright fabricate) code violations and vice complaints, basically do anything they could, to deny these women THEIR INFORMED CHOICE to engage in a lawful occupation!!!

WTF?!?!?

I hate to rant, but as I get older, I find my tolerence for unadulterated BS to get lower and lower.

If so many of these vitriolic, venomous femifascists want to shirk the stereotype of nasty, bitchy, hysterical females... then they should quit acting like one.

If they truly beleived that women were strong intelligent people, then they wouldn't be trying to make choices for them.

Give it some practice ladies. Repeat after me. "While I may not choose such a personal relationship, and may not agree that such relationship is healthy, I respect a woman's right to choose whatever consentual personal relationship she chooses." There..... was THAT so hard?

Their actions betray the truth. So many so-called femists DON'T beleive that women are strong wonderful intelligent people.. otherwise they wouldn't go around trying to tell women how they should think or act or generally trying to make choices for other women.

Thankfully, most women I know ARE intelligent, self-aware, creative, wonderful people who are perfectly capable of making up their own minds, who are perfectly capable of making their own choices, who are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves and who also see femifascism for exactly what it is.

Femifascism isn't about equality and choice. It is about anti-male female superiority.


RANT OFF

Thank you for letting me vent! :blush:

 

[MayhemLass]

I think a lot of the repsonses here tell me that a lot of men (and some women) believe that the dynamics espoused as "correct' before the 1960s was the "correct" one. Of course, I think that is all BS - and think taht a lot of the rantings I read here are not from doms but from misogynists - big difference between the two.

I see no problem with being a feminist AND submissive but in real terms that does NOT mean that some guy can call himself a dom then expect to arbitrarily "punish" a woman for real or imagined transgressions ... as well as expecting them to do all the crap work in teh home like all the cooking, cleaning, running around (and let's face it, most women work fulltime these days too).

Respect is not about brute force.

It is about character and justice and trust.

 

[Kajira Callista]

femifascists!!

RANT WARNING (my first here - woo hoo) !!

It IS supposed to be about CHOICE.... but femifascists are about nothing but choosing for women and it makes me angrier than a rabid beaver!!

She-woman, man-hating clubs! - The same folks who look down their noses at my wife because she CHOOSES to put her career to the side for a time in favor of being a mother. Isn't that HER choice? Isn't that OUR choice as parents? Yet the world isn't short of these brainwashed femifascists who get all snotty and act like women who choose to place family before profesion are somehow "less of a woman"!

WTF!?!?

I went out with a few ladies who happened to work as exotic dancers many years ago. I recall how some of these femifascists would picket the clubs, would infiltrate the clubs and generate embellished (or outright fabricate) code violations and vice complaints, basically do anything they could, to deny these women THEIR INFORMED CHOICE to engage in a lawful occupation!!!

WTF?!?!?

I hate to rant, but as I get older, I find my tolerence for unadulterated BS to get lower and lower.

If so many of these vitriolic, venomous femifascists want to shirk the stereotype of nasty, bitchy, hysterical females... then they should quit acting like one.

If they truly beleived that women were strong intelligent people, then they wouldn't be trying to make choices for them.

Give it some practice ladies. Repeat after me. "While I may not choose such a personal relationship, and may not agree that such relationship is healthy, I respect a woman's right to choose whatever consentual personal relationship she chooses." There..... was THAT so hard?

Their actions betray the truth. So many so-called femists DON'T beleive that women are strong wonderful intelligent people.. otherwise they wouldn't go around trying to tell women how they should think or act or generally trying to make choices for other women.

Thankfully, most women I know ARE intelligent, self-aware, creative, wonderful people who are perfectly capable of making up their own minds, who are perfectly capable of making their own choices, who are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves and who also see femifascism for exactly what it is.

Femifascism isn't about equality and choice. It is about anti-male female superiority.


RANT OFF

Thank you for letting me vent! :blush:

Bravo

 

[rosco rathbone]

The Chairman has apparently been reborn in drag.

And the new Five Black Categories are: patriarchal men, dominant men, paternalistic men, sexual predators, and sadists.

* tying the red scarf around my neck *



Alice

I've been calling that shit Maoist forever.

"Don't agree with us? Of course not--you are insane".

 

[alice_underneath]

I think a lot of the repsonses here tell me that a lot of men (and some women) believe that the dynamics espoused as "correct' before the 1960s was the "correct" one. Of course, I think that is all BS -

The dynamic that is 'correct' is the one that works for the individuals involved in a particular relationship.

and think taht a lot of the rantings I read here are not from doms but from misogynists - big difference between the two.

Misogyny is a serious accusation. Please identify the posts that you believe reflect misogynistic tendencies.

I see no problem with being a feminist AND submissive

Oh, good. I'm glad to hear it.

You, presumably, will be glad to hear that I see no problem with you being a feminist AND whatever the heck you are in your personal relationships either.

but in real terms that does NOT mean that some guy can call himself a dom then expect to..... <snip>

Please remember, MayhemLass. We are talking about consenting adults here.

Are you saying that a relationship is not 'correct' unless it meets your personal standards for the roles involved?

Alice

 

[alice_underneath]

Bravo

Ditto from me.

 

[rosco rathbone]

femifascists!!

RANT WARNING (my first here - woo hoo) !!


RANT OFF

Thank you for letting me vent! :blush:

Well said! I think you ought to post that dressing-down in the thread at iblamethepatriarchy.com. (Link above).

 

[alice_underneath]

I've been calling that shit Maoist forever.

"Don't agree with us? Of course not--you are insane".

Those of you who openly embrace the Four Olds will be incarcerated. The rest of you will be forced underground.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I think a lot of the repsonses here tell me that a lot of men (and some women) believe that the dynamics espoused as "correct' before the 1960s was the "correct" one. Of course, I think that is all BS - and think taht a lot of the rantings I read here are not from doms but from misogynists - big difference between the two.

I see no problem with being a feminist AND submissive but in real terms that does NOT mean that some guy can call himself a dom then expect to arbitrarily "punish" a woman for real or imagined transgressions ... as well as expecting them to do all the crap work in teh home like all the cooking, cleaning, running around (and let's face it, most women work fulltime these days too).

Respect is not about brute force.

It is about character and justice and trust.

I see the distinction you are making; but it's a distinction completely invisible to Them. (The evil feminazis!).

Full disclosure--I love those people. My psychosexuality needs them just as Michael Moore needs Rush Limbaugh.

 

[MayhemLass]

sigh, alice, the few times I post I seem to get your knickers in a twist ...

I'm not going through the entire 6 pages and picking out the bits I find misogynist - I think a quick perusal quite clearly indicates which are.

I did not comment on any particular relationship here - how could I- I am not familiar with them!

And you're right - I think the myths perpetuated about the "old time values" are just that myths and absolute bullshit - the concept of a woman puttering in her happy home with her timesaving devices, not pushed to use her little mind while the patriarchal father figure brings home the bacon and lays down the law is just that - a myth!

I find it ironic that people try to emulate what never existed in reality in the first place, that's all.

If you or anyone else chooses to live what never existed and it works for you, well, hey, more power to you

my opinion (and yes, that is my PERSONAL opinion) and I woudl be hard pressed to know of ONE relationship, on a 24/7 basis that could exist based on a life pattern that was created by Disney to begin with!

 

[alice_underneath]

sigh, alice, the few times I post I seem to get your knickers in a twist ...

Really? My apologies, but I don't recognize you!

I'm not going through the entire 6 pages and picking out the bits I find misogynist - I think a quick perusal quite clearly indicates which are.

That is a cop-out that I do not respect.

If you are going to hurl insulting and inflammatory accusations against members of this Board, such as - "a lot of the rantings I read here are not from doms but from misogynists" - then, in my opinion, you should have the decency to back them up.

I did not comment on any particular relationship here - how could I- I am not familiar with them!

And you're right - I think the myths perpetuated about the "old time values" are just that myths and absolute bullshit - the concept of a woman puttering in her happy home with her timesaving devices, not pushed to use her little mind while the patriarchal father figure brings home the bacon and lays down the law is just that - a myth!

I find it ironic that people try to emulate what never existed in reality in the first place, that's all.

If you or anyone else chooses to live what never existed and it works for you, well, hey, more power to you

my opinion (and yes, that is my PERSONAL opinion) and I woudl be hard pressed to know of ONE relationship, on a 24/7 basis that could exist based on a life pattern that was created by Disney to begin with!

LOL, MayhemLass. Your first comment in this extract says it all!

You are not familiar with the details of my relationship, or anyone else's here. In other words...... you have no idea what you are talking about!

Sincere thanks for the giggles,

Alice

 

[MayhemLass]

glad I amused you ...

but people's word tell a lot about their characters - yours for instance!

 

[alice_underneath]

glad I amused you ...

but people's word tell a lot about their characters - yours for instance!

My apologies, MayhemLass. I don't really do catfights, and am therefore unwilling to continue in this vein.

Even though it probably would amuse Mr. Rathbone....

 

[Marquis]

There's a lot going on these days.

I wish I had time to play.

 

[graceanne]

I don't know why everyone lets themselves get upset about the feminist bullshit. No matter what you do their will always be someone telling you that it's wrong, that you shouldn't, that you're a bad person . . . etc. That's life. What do you care, as long as you know that you're fine?

You could get on there and argue till you're blue in the face, and still not convince them of anything. Know why? Cause to make them change their mind would force them to totally change their way of thinking, and then she might *gasp* find out she really likes BDSM. Frankly, the whole thing stinks of denial to me. Someone wants her butt beat, and doesn't want anyone else to know.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Frankly, the whole thing stinks of denial to me. Someone wants her butt beat, and doesn't want anyone else to know.

I think you ought to go over there and tell them that, he he he.

 

[graceanne]

I think you ought to go over there and tell them that, he he he.

Yeah, I don't think so. I want to live to see tomorrow. You do it! You're the big brave dom, and all. I'll watch from over -------------------------------------
------------------------------------> here. *waves*

 

[alice_underneath]

I find it ironic that people try to emulate what never existed in reality in the first place, that's all.

If you or anyone else chooses to live what never existed and it works for you, well, hey, more power to you

my opinion (and yes, that is my PERSONAL opinion) and I woudl be hard pressed to know of ONE relationship, on a 24/7 basis that could exist based on a life pattern that was created by Disney to begin with!

MayhemLass,

I sincerely apologize for being flippant in my earlier response to you. Feminism is an extremely important topic, and one that has had a profound impact on my life in many different ways.

I am not sure why you have the impression that my relationship (or anyone else's on this thread) is modeled after the 1950's or fairy tales, or based on the "brute force" of the guy involved, instead of "character and justice and trust." I can't speak for anyone else here, but I can assure you that - in my case - your assumptions are incorrect.

As for my opinion on feminism, I can't really summarize it any better than I did in a post last December. So I'll just copy that post below, in an effort to help you understand where I'm coming from.

Respectfully,
Alice

Six months ago, I walked out of Victoria's Secret with a bag of goodies and faced a group of women protesters. One of them asked me directly: "Are you proud of the way you look in those clothes?"

I looked her right in the eyes and said, "Hell yes, I'm proud. Do you think I starve myself and hop on the treadmill every day for nothing?"

Her mouth dropped open, and she asked me, "WHY do you do that?" I leaned over and whispered, "Because my husband is more fun rock hard than limp. Duh!" Then I smiled sweetly and walked away.

Now, normally I am neither this obnoxious nor this crass. But it really pisses me off that someone would take a simple and obvious concept such as - women should be given the skills and opportunity to take care of themselves - and pervert it into the ridiculous notion that I should be ashamed for wearing lingerie. SHEESH!

No, I'm not a fan of radical feminism. But the feminist movement does contain concepts that are profoundly beneficial to women. And one of them is this: Life is not a fairytale. Prince Charming does not exist. The notion that some man will treasure and care for you always is not just idiotic, it is downright dangerous.

Is the problem that men are all assholes? Of course not. They are human, god help them. Just like us. We all have genetic wiring, and parents, and prior experiences, and - well, we are all just a big psychological mess! Every one of us.

You asked earlier why the concept of women as whores is offensive when men state it. It is not the idea itself that is offensive - it is the attempt to attach a pejorative connotation to it that I consider unacceptable.

Ladies, don't you see? If you let yourself be offended by the notion that you are a whore, you are buying into a ridiculous romantic ideal that has oppressed women for millennia.

Yes, I am a whore. But I am not really interested in a financial exchange, because I have the education and work experience to take care of myself. (Mr. Schmoe is incorrect. Men don't have all the money and sandwiches anymore.... and we can thank feminism for that too.)

I'm not just a whore, I'm proud of it. As I said before, there is nothing immoral in that statement. It is just plain common sense.

Alice

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=15285260&postcount=227

 

[graceanne]

MayhemLass,

I sincerely apologize for being flippant in my earlier response to you. Feminism is an extremely important topic, and one that has had a profound impact on my life in many different ways.

I am not sure why you have the impression that my relationship (or anyone else's on this thread) is modeled after the 1950's or fairy tales, or based on the "brute force" of the guy involved, instead of "character and justice and trust." I can't speak for anyone else here, but I can assure you that - in my case - your assumptions are incorrect.

As for my opinion on feminism, I can't really summarize it any better than I did in a post last December. So I'll just copy that post below, in an effort to help you understand where I'm coming from.

Respectfully,
Alice


https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=15285260&postcount=227

LOL - I was trying to remember where I'd read that, cause this thread made me think of it. hehe

 

[alice_underneath]

LOL - I was trying to remember where I'd read that, cause this thread made me think of it. hehe

 

[rosco rathbone]

Yeah, I don't think so. I want to live to see tomorrow. You do it! You're the big brave dom, and all. I'll watch from over -------------------------------------
------------------------------------> here. *waves*

I've already fallen on my sword for the greater glory of domination-just prior to being banned from the Ms.com boards; back when you were just a twinkle in your daddy's eye.

It was an interesting experience, to say the least.