Taking Away The Safeword

[Chicklet]

thanks everyone for your answers. I for one would never, EVER play without a safeword, but, then, I've never been in a 24/7 serious D/s relationship. it's hard for me to imagine.

Could you link the story so that we may be better able to address the issue at hand?

as long as you keep in mind I'm an amatuer, and that this isn't my best work ever, check it out.

Hope

 

[white_mage_goddess]

We don't have any official safewords either. "Wait (please)" or "break, please" is just as easy as "yellow", as is "stop (please)" as short as "red". It wouldn't work in "forced" play, but neither of us are into pretending resistance so feel comfortable with saying exactly what is meant.
<snip>
.

This is basically what me and my b/f have decided on...rather than having an actual specific word, we just communicate. He knows the difference between "Oh master, stop spanking me" and "<insert real name>! Stop, that hurts WAY too bad!"

 

[Pure]

Hi Chicklet,

I find myself in the minority here, being close in position only to Lark S. There are two concepts possible, at least:
1) A signal to stop
2) A signal of, for instance, excruciating pain.

The first is a direction. The second is furnishing a piece of information.

"Red" as I've heard it, is usually a direction to stop. Yellow, a direction to ease off or slow down.

Information, however, is simply to be furnished so that a sane dom can decide what to do, if anything.

My position is that the one who's 'dominant' ('topping' to some usages) is doing the directing and controlling. If an alleged 'sub' has a bunch of directing signals (i.e., 1) ) and uses them, then clearly that 'sub' is directing, hence dominating the situation.

If your story purports to be of a 'mainstream' 'approved' bdsm safe sane consensual relationship, I'd expect there to be safewords. And, as I said, a good author would also indicate who's really controlling things, regardless of whose hand holds the whip.


But if genuine and thorough domination is occurring, and the encounter has a bit of novelty, I don't think you'd depict safewords in the directive sense.

This simple point can deal with the usual objections about bad backs, arthritic conditions, low blood sugar, etc. There should be no directives if the 'sub' is submitting (instead of covertly running the show), but she should furnish information about those conditions.

But it might be objected: Surely with a stranger you need 'directives'. Giving information is not enough protection.
Answer: you need to protect yourself against strangers in isolated circumstances; you need 'backups' for your safety, esp. if you are a woman. If the stranger is sane, information will be enough for a rational decision.

If you hypothesize that the stranger is a psycho killer (who's been judged safe) then clearly setting up a 'directive' (when I say Red, you must stop, agreed?) is rather pointless. It will be ignored. So the 'Red' set up is simply for peace of mind, even where there should not be any!

 

[Tiestheknots]

Good Thread!

First off, I have always used (20 years) the "yellow light" or "red light" concept to help the sub understand that there is safety in what we do. A Dom can't plug themselves into the thoughts and feelings of the sub (Oh, if we could!) and understand where they are. The safe word helps develop trust, without which the relationship will go downhill, and fast.

The flip side is that the safe word can empower the sub. I have always stopped at the use of the safe word, but there have been times when we talked about why it was used. If the sub used it because she got scared and "chickened out", then it soon became apparent that the lifestyle was not what she really wanted and we went our separate ways. If the sub used the safe word over something that really hurt, that I coudn't see, then we talked about that and I was always careful in the future.

So, all the subbies out there, take note. Use the safe word when you have to, but be aware that crying "Wolf" can come back to haunt you.

I have a helpful hint for those that like to use the ball gag. Use the wrestlers' "tapout" signal. Give three taps with the finger tips or three grunts in a row.


Hope this helps. I coudn't imagine a D/s relationship without safe words.

Take care,

Tiestheknots

 

[James G 5]

i had to say stop the other day. we were having a day-long marathon fuck session. He'd already cum several times, but still wanted more. i, on the other hand, was very sore (this particular fuck-fest was after about a week of wild sex) and i just couldn't take it.

See, that would've been the time to try anal


(Just kidding Bunny, I couldn't resist!)

 

[bunny bondage]

See, that would've been the time to try anal


(Just kidding Bunny, I couldn't resist!)

*subtly puts you in an kneebar*

 

[Ebonyfire]

I insist on safewords, and would never have a submissive who did not understand the significance and importance of them.

YMMV.

 

[Ebonyfire]

More...

I look at consent as something that has to be re-asserted repeatedly.

That being the case, the use of safe words can be looked at as a simple way of gauging consent, during D/s activities.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Safewords are NOT just for the the safety of the submissive they are also an extra assistance to a Dominant who may be in a mood to push a limit a little harder than usual. It gives Her or Him a freedom to be able to move forward knowing that if it is just beyond bearable the sub has a *no guilt* *no fault* *respectful* way to end the scene.
The colors are standardly understood but they are not the only way to safeword out..a long term relationship will over time fall into its own way if the colors do not feel necessary to be understood.
My slave has only had to safeword once in 3 years...he simply said..*please Mistressssss* in a way that I recognize as his being on the brink of tears. I will never allow him to be without a safeword even though he feels that he trusts Me 100% at all times.

I think this is a really good point. I am in a relationship where we do a lot of bdsm play but its not formal. we did it for a long-time before we ever heard of safewords. So we still don't have one, however on the spir of the moment I called out "safeword" once so that's our unofficial safeword. Our roleplaying is pretty light compared to some, he usually chickens out (for lack of a better word) before me. I'll be like 'hit me again' and he'll be more like 'um, your pretty red back here' or he'll ask me if I'm ok if I sound in the least bit uncomfortable. I think we should have a safe word just so we don't have to interupt play with questions like "is it that hard?" or whatever. I think with a safeword, you can play rougher!

As far as the story goes, I've had people say that aspects of my story are unrealistic as well. To which I respond that it is fantasy. A girl being raped will not enjoy the experience. She won' t beg her rapist to fuck her. I think its fair to say that not every BDSM story should be required to include a safe word, some do not use it, wheather that is "good" or "bad" or "safe" or not, some just don't for whatever reason. ANd even if they do have a safeword is it going to come up during every session? What about people who just start *doing* it, they don't know there are rules, they just think it would be fun. They don't know anything about safe rules, never even heard the phrase. They don't even know that other people enjoy this type of thing. They think that they are the only ones with these crazy fetishes. Or maybe they don't think there the only ones, but they don't know anybody else who is and they wouldn't make any attempt to meet them or talk to them about there interest. Would they have a safeword? I think not.

I think you get the picture.

 

[jon.hayworth]

I think my SO and I know each other pretty well after 21 years together. Hell we got divorced and decided we still needed a relationship.

However we still need a safe word, as WillowPuss and Bunny Bondage said there are situations when the sub needs to be able to call desist.

For many people the sub's protests are a part of the role play. Some subs find a release that allows them to endure more pain by shouting "NO" or "STOP".

As an experiment we tried a no Safe Word session, and I found I was more inhibitted by knowing I would not know if I was pushing her too far. We both agreed afterwards it was never again - because she felt dissatisfied that I had not taken her anywhere near to her own limits.

jon

 

[James G 5]

For many people the sub's protests are a part of the role play. Some subs find a release that allows them to endure more pain by shouting "NO" or "STOP".

As I've said before, I'm in to both "force" scenarios and heavy play, and I often play at clubs or conventions with virtual strangers, so I feel safewords are a must. Even with someone I've been with long term I would want one..........sometimes if someone is FAR out in space and I'm not sure they COULD respond if needed I can say "What's your safeword?" and if s/he can't respond I can back off a bit.
The play session I mentioned before that I had last year with the Pro-Domme the club resulted at one point in her yelling "You FUCKER, that HURTS, STOP IT!"
I actually stopped & asked if she was OK
She said "Well YEAH, I didn't say yellow or red, that's how I deal with the pain"
That's in direct contrast to Pure's comments about "what a sane person would do"...I stopped and she didn't WANT me to
Additionally, D/s to me is a power exchange that's about the sub willingly GIVING control to the Dom
I've rarely had anyone safeword on me, and certainly never as a method of control
Someone who was routinely safewording to assert control would, I think, find play coming to an end fairly quickly

My 2 cents for now

 

[Pure]

Hi Jon
Those are interesting comments.

For many people the sub's protests are a part of the role play. Some subs find a release that allows them to endure more pain by shouting "NO" or "STOP".

As an experiment we tried a no Safe Word session, and I found I was more inhibitted by knowing I would not know if I was pushing her too far. We both agreed afterwards it was never again - because she felt dissatisfied that I had not taken her anywhere near to her own limits.

For her and you, the safeword allowed a closer approach to her limits, through making you less hesitant to go near them.

I do understand the point that certain obvious words NOT count, such as "no" and "stop" or even "please please stop". That's a simple pre-arrangement

Jon, I wonder if this person didn't merely not use a safeword in this session but maybe she didn't say much at all? That wouldn't be what I had in mind; instead, there be a signal for intense pain, and for unbearable pain. An informational signal not a direction.

Here's an analogy: You know how a mom can hear an ordinary cry of a baby waking; and she can distinguish that from a cry of pain, if for instance the baby is stuck with a safety pin.

Similarly it seems to me that a seasoned dom/me can listen to screams and tell, "Is this hurt, or is it out-of-her-mind excruciating" And act accordingly. ( I realize gags present a problem, but perhaps you can see my point, or how it might be adapted.)

Best,

Pure

 

[cellis]

Today I panicked.

I have had my safeword from Himself since the day I met Him. He chose and gave it to me. I have never used it, but come close to it on several occassions.

My safety is of the most importance to Himself.

Today I panicked and could not use the safeword.. I couldn't remember "yellow" or "red". I panicked. Then I called His name. I never do that when we play. He stopped immediately to check on me.

It was the oddest thing. The oddest sensation. I have never done that before, panicked like that I mean.

But He knew. Himself knew when I called His name that something was wrong.

I would never play with anyone without a safeword, and today was a prime example of why I need one and I need to remember to use it.

 

[James G 5]

Hi Jon
Here's an analogy: You know how a mom can hear an ordinary cry of a baby waking; and she can distinguish that from a cry of pain, if for instance the baby is stuck with a safety pin.

Similarly it seems to me that a seasoned dom/me can listen to screams and tell, "Is this hurt, or is it out-of-her-mind excruciating" And act accordingly.

Please see my comments above about a play session where I ran afoul of this

 

[Justina123]

Originally posted by jon.hayworth
For many people the sub's protests are a part of the role play. Some subs find a release that allows them to endure more pain by shouting "NO" or "STOP".


THANK YOU for posting this! This is something I do in play/pain sessions... and every time I tell myself "I will NOT say 'no', etc. next time." But next time comes and it happens again. Sir knows me quite well now and he knows that this does not REALLY mean 'no' or 'stop' and he does not let it phase him. We long ago agreed on the red and yellow words, though I have never had to use them, but he also reads me very well now and sometimes just seems to know when to ease up.

But anyway, it's very nice to hear that I'm not the only one who does this, and maybe I'll quit worrying about it, esp. since my Dominant doesn't mind it. (It's just kinda embarassing, esp. in public play, sometimes I'm worrying in the back of my head that someone will think its nonconsensual or something when he ignores my "no".)

-justina

 

[jon.hayworth]

Thank you Justinia and James for your comments.

Over here in the UK I think the situation is getting increasingly worrying. In the latest Sexual Offences Bill the government introduced the notion of "positive consent".

I understand that this was introduced with the best of motives, to prevent rapists fielding a defence based upon misunderstanding the woman.

However for those of us into heavy BDSM it could cause problems. Under other legislation Emergency Dept Doctors now have a duty to call the police if they suspect Domestic Violence etc. So if anything goes really wrong this could lead to a very uncomfortable time with the police.

This is compounded by the fact that they will now prosecute even if the victim does not want to press charges etc.

Maybe this sounds paranoid - or the fruits of my writer's imagination working overtime but ... -

My partner and I are into heavy fisting scenes, and breast torments amongst other things. Deep fisting always cerries a degree of risk. I cannot imagine under our paternalistic regime being able to convince the forces of law and order that the injuries were not the result of a sexual assault or domestic violence.

jon

 

[Ebonyfire]

Thank you Justinia and James for your comments.

Over here in the UK I think the situation is getting increasingly worrying. In the latest Sexual Offences Bill the government introduced the notion of "positive consent".

I understand that this was introduced with the best of motives, to prevent rapists fielding a defence based upon misunderstanding the woman.

However for those of us into heavy BDSM it could cause problems. Under other legislation Emergency Dept Doctors now have a duty to call the police if they suspect Domestic Violence etc. So if anything goes really wrong this could lead to a very uncomfortable time with the police.

This is compounded by the fact that they will now prosecute even if the victim does not want to press charges etc.

Maybe this sounds paranoid - or the fruits of my writer's imagination working overtime but ... -

My partner and I are into heavy fisting scenes, and breast torments amongst other things. Deep fisting always cerries a degree of risk. I cannot imagine under our paternalistic regime being able to convince the forces of law and order that the injuries were not the result of a sexual assault or domestic violence.

jon

I think you are right. It is almost getting that bad in some of the states here.

 

[Pure]

Hi JG5

you said,
//Please see my comments above about a play session where I ran afoul of this //

I believe I addressed this. Parties may agree that the usual protests and 'stop' are not to matter. That's all you 'ran afoul' of, as far as I can see (lacking such an agreement). In any case, you stopped before her limit, so it's not unlike the situation Jon H described, of perhaps overcaution in the absence of good information.

Hi Jon, and regarding your comments, below,

I agree that sort of development is disquieting. If consent is in force whenever the judge says, and this isn't linked to someone saying "I consent" or "Go ahead with X." we're in trouble.

I posted a US article from a law journal a while back dealing with the problem, How do we have laws to enable abuse prosecution in the absence of one person's complaint, and despite the 'victim's' statements of 'consent' and at the same time protect the SM folks who play 'heavy' but do have prior agreements and arrangements, iow honor their 'subs' statements of consent. It is a tricky issue. One branch of feminism ran amok, I'm afraid, in trying to criminalize grey areas of sexual harassment, 'date rape' 'domestic abuse' and standard consensual SM.

Best,
J.

Thank you Justinia and James for your comments.

Over here in the UK I think the situation is getting increasingly worrying. In the latest Sexual Offences Bill the government introduced the notion of "positive consent".

I understand that this was introduced with the best of motives, to prevent rapists fielding a defence based upon misunderstanding the woman.

However for those of us into heavy BDSM it could cause problems. Under other legislation Emergency Dept Doctors now have a duty to call the police if they suspect Domestic Violence etc. So if anything goes really wrong this could lead to a very uncomfortable time with the police.

This is compounded by the fact that they will now prosecute even if the victim does not want to press charges etc.

Maybe this sounds paranoid - or the fruits of my writer's imagination working overtime but ... -

My partner and I are into heavy fisting scenes, and breast torments amongst other things. Deep fisting always cerries a degree of risk. I cannot imagine under our paternalistic regime being able to convince the forces of law and order that the injuries were not the result of a sexual assault or domestic violence.

jon

 

[SexyChele]

With the first Dominant I had, we didn't even know what safewords were, so needless to say, we didn't use them. He learned to read me, and when we tried something new, he demanded constant communication about what I was feeling and where I was at. I know there were a number of times that things went too far, but somehow he knew it and would stop and then we would talk about it. Maybe he was just very intuitive. I don't know.

I've played since then, and have had a safeword system. I've never used them, but I haven't really played all that much, either. I do have to say that things are different now in my 40s than in my 20s. Things have started to fall apart, unfortunately, and there are different conditions that I have that need to be considered. When you are 21 and healthy, you don't think anything bad will happen. When you are 42 and subject to dizzy spells, it's a "hell no" you aren't going to suspend me upside down from the ceiling! I don't think I would feel totally comfortable playing now without some sort of system in place to stop if needed. Hopefully, we would come to know each other well enough not to have to use it, but you never know.

As for fiction, hey, it's just fiction. I think incorporating safewords into a fantasy situation would detract from the overall story, unless the safewords played a major role in the story itself. Too much "realism" can sometimes utterly destroy what would be a terrific story otherwise. People who are in the lifestyle, who live it, know what safewords and use them accordingly. It doesn't necessarily mean they want to read about them in a story designed, ultimately, to get them off.

I wouldn't worry about this one person's comment, Chicklet.

 

[Arden]

One branch of feminism ran amok, I'm afraid, in trying to criminalize grey areas of sexual harassment, 'date rape' 'domestic abuse' and standard consensual SM.

Best,
J.

I don't think that this has anything to do with feminism run amok. In many of those situations, especially rape or domestic abuse, the victims are too terrified of retribution to press charges. Domestic abuse victims are also, many times, constantly degraded and made to feel worthless to the point that they fear being alone more than living with the abuser. It's a sick form of dependency that renders them unable to "tell on" the one doing the abuse.

Standard, consensual bdsm play, however, should be a very small number of complaints filed, even under the new rulings. I would also assume that there would be a hearing, at least, to allow explanation before any justice is meted out.

Chicklet, regarding your story, my own thoughts are this. Because there will be many new people just entering the lifestyle that will read your story, wouldn't it be better to include the use of safewords? I think that I visualize Dom wanna-be's thinking "cool, I can do anything I want!"

 

[Richard49]

thanks everyone for your answers. I for one would never, EVER play without a safeword, but, then, I've never been in a 24/7 serious D/s relationship. it's hard for me to imagine.



as long as you keep in mind I'm an amatuer, and that this isn't my best work ever, check it out.

Hope

I checked it out
I liked it
it was as you said at the begiing of it
a conversation between a Dom and Sub
I do not see/understand why someone thinks
you should have burdened your stroy with a safe word

and I believe in safe words

 

[Richard49]

I have ben in this lifestyle long enough that
1) that was no internet
2) no matter what you could get arrested for "scening" even if it was in your own bedroom

I have been through a divorce where the now Ex wife
(not my resent Ex SO)
claimed battered wife syndrome

I'll stop before I really rant and rave

The point is ... that we do not have many freedoms
that we think we have

 

[lark sparrow]

In fictional BDSM stories a safeword must be included? Is this a morality tale?

If Chicklet decides she wants her writing to be the shining example of all that is right, good and socially acceptable in BDSM, then more power. But we are talking about a fictional piece of writing. I don't think she need be concerned about safewords in her written expression of fantasy unless she wants to be.

Regarding safewords, in this thread I think we have seen many great examples of how to utilize the concept of safewords and also that none of the ways were/are absolutely fail-safe, and each scene and/or player has differing and changing needs/desires. There is no one size fits all, overwhelmingly right way to communicate and ensure that each player is as safe as possible in scene or in life. One standard is red, yellow (and sometimes green) - if you don't like that, figure out what truly works for you and your partner. Clear communication between and physical/psychological safety of all parties involved cannot be ignored (without bad results) IRL.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Piggybacking

In fictional BDSM stories a safeword must be included? Is this a morality tale?

If Chicklet decides she wants her writing to be the shining example of all that is right, good and socially acceptable in BDSM, then more power. But we are talking about a fictional piece of writing. I don't think she need be concerned about safewords in her written expression of fantasy unless she wants to be.

Regarding safewords, in this thread I think we have seen many great examples of how to utilize the concept of safewords and also that none of the ways were/are absolutely fail-safe, and each scene and/or player has differing and changing needs/desires. There is no one size fits all, overwhelmingly right way to communicate and ensure that each player is as safe as possible in scene or in life. One standard is red, yellow (and sometimes green) - if you don't like that, figure out what truly works for you and your partner. Clear communication between and physical/psychological safety of all parties involved cannot be ignored (without bad results) IRL.

And the responsibility lies equally between both parties, to be safe because both dominant and submissives are supposed to be consenting adults. Being a submissive does not mean checking your brain at the spanking bench, and being a Dom/me does not make you a mind reader.

 

[jon.hayworth]

In fictional BDSM stories a safeword must be included? Is this a morality tale?

If Chicklet decides she wants her writing to be the shining example of all that is right, good and socially acceptable in BDSM, then more power. But we are talking about a fictional piece of writing. I don't think she need be concerned about safewords in her written expression of fantasy unless she wants to be. IRL.

Your post widens the debate Larksparrow.

Basically the question posed is. -

Are writers of BDSM fiction, mere creators of fiction, and do our readers treat our work as being no more than the products of an imaginative mind?
or Do we also have some duty to educate? Are we overestimating our own importance, and belittling our readers by believing they cannot tell fact from phantasy?

I would suggest that it depends upon the story setting. If the story is set in an everyday situation, an ordinary house (with no Gothic / Baroque torture chambers) and the protagonists are ordinary people - who the reader can relate to because they are like the neighbours. Then maybe we should assume that people who are not on the scene will believe this is how it is done.

Time for a reminiscence, not long ago a friend of my partners asked her about fisting. It turned out her guy had really hurt her because they did what they had read in a story, he had not clipped his nails or used gloves, and they did not even know what KY was.

Now maybe that is an extreme case - I hope so - and yes the couple are dumb, but even so it does remind us, we do influence people.

I would suggest that if your story contains really unsafe practices then it does not detract to put in an author's note at the end or the begining.

On the otherhand if the story is way out of what people can relate to, in time, or setting, and characters, then there is less chance that some dumbo will believe they are reading the BDSM Kama Sutra.


OK I am waiting for the flak

jon