Taking Away The Safeword

[MissTaken]

Actually, jon, there have been a number of threads devoted to your question in more general terms. Delicious debates with many different points of view!

Is the author liable for the impact a story may have on his reader or the reader's activities?

I do not believe any of the threads moved into the realm of BDSM tales, but rather in terms of non consensual stories and incest.

I will look up the links

 

[jon.hayworth]

MissTaken,

Don't bother on my account, I was only responding to the views aired by Arden and Larksparrow.

If people want to pick up on the issue - maybe a new thread should be started.

Great AV
jon

 

[lark sparrow]

No flack here - no debate.

Your post widens the debate Larksparrow.

Time for a reminiscence, not long ago a friend of my partners asked her about fisting. It turned out her guy had really hurt her because they did what they had read in a story, he had not clipped his nails or used gloves, and they did not even know what KY was.

Now maybe that is an extreme case - I hope so - and yes the couple are dumb, but even so it does remind us, we do influence people.

I would suggest that if your story contains really unsafe practices then it does not detract to put in an author's note at the end or the begining.

On the otherhand if the story is way out of what people can relate to, in time, or setting, and characters, then there is less chance that some dumbo will believe they are reading the BDSM Kama Sutra.


OK I am waiting for the flak

jon

That's life, Jon. The willfully or intentionally ignorant have to learn somehow or die trying. I'm not their momma.

If we have to take everything down to it's lowest common denominator for the most blatantly ignorant person we can imagine or the severely mentally incapacitated, who cannot distinguish fantasy from reality in any way shape or form... well, count me out. Live and learn... or well, don't - it's all out there and available to any adult with even moderate mental capabilities who gives a half-hearted effort to learn.

 

[JoseIsWild]

It really depends on the girl. I never even think of using a safeword and most of the girls don't seem to mind me tormenting them until I get tired. I'm a little chicken so when she starts complaining alot, I release her. I've gone out with a few that refused to be tied up, and of course I respect her wishes.

 

[fallon2]

Safe and consensual

The reason a safeword is needed is due to the fact that it is just that: a safe word. To not have a safeword goes against everything that is safe and consensual. The person who is given a safe word knows that is their key to ending an activity that may be going too far.
In long term relationships when two people have known each other for a long time then it may be acceptable to use the other person's name.

 

[Arden]

In fictional BDSM stories a safeword must be included? Is this a morality tale?

If Chicklet decides she wants her writing to be the shining example of all that is right, good and socially acceptable in BDSM, then more power. But we are talking about a fictional piece of writing. I don't think she need be concerned about safewords in her written expression of fantasy unless she wants to be.

Hi lark sparrow...

I didn't mean to ignite any fires, I was only trying to cover some thought that wasn't addressed yet regarding the story. We are all free to write our stories any way that we wish. She did ask for opinions, and if we all gave the "do anything you want to" opinion, there wouldn't be much to discuss, other than if we use safewords or not. It was just another angle.

In all honesty, I too believe she should write the story any way that makes her happy. Her own satisfaction with the story is all that counts in the end.

 

[lark sparrow]

Hi lark sparrow...

I didn't mean to ignite any fires, I was only trying to cover some thought that wasn't addressed yet regarding the story. We are all free to write our stories any way that we wish. She did ask for opinions, and if we all gave the "do anything you want to" opinion, there wouldn't be much to discuss, other than if we use safewords or not. It was just another angle.

In all honesty, I too believe she should write the story any way that makes her happy. Her own satisfaction with the story is all that counts in the end.

Hello Arden... absolutely agreed on all of the above. There's room for all of it here. Chicklet doesn't seem to be lacking her own ideas or the ability to search out other's opinions and consider new options. I think it's great that she brought out the topic to discuss in wanting some input on how the community here views the use of safewords. I assume she'll do whatever she wants to do. There's no harm in disclaimers either, as Jon pointed out, if it makes the writer feel more at ease in sharing their fantasies openly.

The writer still has absolutely no control over how their story is interpreted, and what the reader will do when they are done reading the story. If they can't handle that lack of control, then the best thing might be not sharing stories publically - screen all possible readers, guard it like family jewels - decide what people can read and handle, or conversely what you, the writer, feel comfortable and confident in sharing with the general public.

I simply feel trying to make everything written about BDSM, fictional or not, conform to a standard that everyone here can't even agree on is kind of silly. When one sets out to research a topic, diversity is good!! - reading the same lines over and over no matter where one looks is hardly a thorough investigation.

 

[Ebonyfire]

As for fiction, hey, it's just fiction. I think incorporating safewords into a fantasy situation would detract from the overall story, unless the safewords played a major role in the story itself. Too much "realism" can sometimes utterly destroy what would be a terrific story otherwise.

I agree. I do not think that it is the job of the artist to be totally realistic all the time. The term artistic license means something. We do not use safewords in our dreams, where sometimes our imagination and fantasies take advantage of our good sense. I think that rational adults can figure out whether a situation is meant to be taken seriously or not. If not, they are in big trouble, and not just from BDSM.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Hi JG5

.. One branch of feminism ran amok, I'm afraid, in trying to criminalize grey areas of sexual harassment, 'date rape' 'domestic abuse' and standard consensual SM.

Best,
J.

??? are you saying that date rape, domestic abuse and sexual harasment are grey areas or that they HAVE grey areas? and why do you have date rape and domestic abuse in quotes?

 

[sweetnpetite]

I think not

If writers of BDSM are required to write in a safeword to every story, are non-consent writers required to attach a disclaimer to ever single story that says: woman don' t really like to be raped. It is illegal. This story is pure fantasy.

should incest writers always clearly state:
Its not really ok to fuck your mother! Even if she begs you.

In fantasy should we also disclaim:
Elves and trolls don't really exist. but if they did, it would not be advisable to enter into sexual relations with them.

You get the picture. People who read fiction and then immediatly look to imitate it without any sort of education or common sence will hurt themselves sooner or later. Mother nature doesn't put warning lables on the trees:
When climbing please consider that falls from a high place can cause sever injury including broken bones.

How did we ever servive(sp) before industrialization?

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: No flack here - no debate.

That's life, Jon. The willfully or intentionally ignorant have to learn somehow or die trying. I'm not their momma.

If we have to take everything down to it's lowest common denominator for the most blatantly ignorant person we can imagine or the severely mentally incapacitated, who cannot distinguish fantasy from reality in any way shape or form... well, count me out. Live and learn... or well, don't - it's all out there and available to any adult with even moderate mental capabilities who gives a half-hearted effort to learn.

LS, my momma called it root little piggy or die.

Eb

 

[Pure]

S & P


??? are you saying that date rape, domestic abuse and sexual harasment are grey areas or that they HAVE grey areas?

Yes, I am, honey chile; mainly the latter. On the domestic abuse--what the law might consider to be such--have a look at this thread, jon h's posting, 3-11, 1:23 pm and a few other threads of late.

best,
j.

 

[James G 5]

Couple of comments
First, I feel about safe-wording every D/s story about like I feel about condomns in my porn
Boring & detracting from the fantasy
People who can't tell fantasy from reality won't respect things like safewords ANYHOW
I gave a nod to this in my story by posting a disclaimer about safety but DAMN it'd be a boring story if I put in a bunch of hash about safe calls & such
I think you have to draw some lines & give your readers some credit

In a perfect world of perfect people (which is what we create in our fiction), would we NEED safewords? Hell no!
Do we live in such a word? HELL no! So safewords are a must.

One comment on the legal issues....In massachusets it is IMPOSSIBLE under state law for someone to consent to being "abused". This law has been used to shut down D/s clubs and prosecute people playing there. Sad.

 

[FungiUg]

Safety & Stories

My most recent "evyl twin" story features a discussion about safety and use of condoms... the first time I've put either of those into a story, I think.

Kind of makes a difference to the tone of the story - well, I felt it did when I was writing, anyway. Like it was more "gritty".

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

S & P


??? are you saying that date rape, domestic abuse and sexual harasment are grey areas or that they HAVE grey areas?

<Yes, I am, honey chile; mainly the latter. On the domestic abuse--what the law might consider to be such--have a look at this thread, jon h's posting, 3-11, 1:23 pm and a few other threads of late.

best,
j.>

You referred the person that posed this question back to a post that laments the posibility of being busted for overly agressive fisting that 'might' land a partner in the emergency room as an explanation for 'grey areas' that might cause concern in the world of BDSM.

Am I the only one here that sees something wrong with this picture? I don't mean to offend you, but some of us are intelligent, honest people that realize when a trip to the hospital is warranted. Should we NOT seek medical treatment just to protect a partner that went a bit too far? If your submissive were to die as a result of untreated complications, would you wipe your brow and exclaim "Whew, I'm glad she didn't say I was involved!"

My apologies to everyone for my ranting, but it does reflect back to the necessity for safewords, and the importance of taking one seriously when used. IMHO, if there is physical damage being done, someone is pushing too hard, too fast. There is no grey area at that point. A submissive may no longer be able to vocalize the need to safe out if they are too far into subspace. If one insists on pushing the limits to a dangerous point, they need to be ready to take responsibility for their actions. If they can't, or won't, well shame on them. They have no right posing as a respectable Dominant if they are not.

 

[lark sparrow]

Re: Re: No flack here - no debate.

LS, my momma called it root little piggy or die.

Eb

LOL I like that, Ebony! Might be an interesting phrase in a humiliation scene as well.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: No flack here - no debate.

LOL I like that, Ebony! Might be an interesting phrase in a humiliation scene as well.

Hm, got any suggestions?

 

[jon.hayworth]

Emmeline,

Iwas not suggesting that someone who got hurt due to an overly enthusiastic act, fisting, whipping or anything else should not seek medical attention.

The point I was trying to make was that due to recent changes in United Kingdom laws and directives, people in the UK should be extra aware of their need to be careful. IMHO under these constraints that have made some practices clearly unlawful and have moved others into a "gray" area, sceneing without safewords is clearly reckless.

I would never advocate deliberately pushing the bounds to a point that risked injury, but the truth is many of our practices are inherently unsafe. Therefore in my opinion and experience taking the safe word away is increasing those risks.

jon