Ten Comandments - Practise

[PatCarrington]

Objection- leading the witness.
IOW saying, show don't tell? Obviously you are going to colour it, so that they see it, the way you want them to, wouldn't be much art now, would it Pat? "Guernica" with expressionless faces?

sustained, counselor.

what we're going for in this thread, i thought, if it's even possible, are general rules ( the word 'commandments' probably was not a good starting point ) to go by. none of which would have no exceptions, of course.

"coloring" is one thing. out-and-out judgement is another, i think.

i just prefer the reader figure out what to feel by themselves when i write, rather than being an arrogant writer and telling them how to feel.

i think it is a standard error novice poets make, writing anti-war or protest poetry, or making judgement on an issue they feel strongly about, assuming their position is gospel and unassailable and dissenting views are the ideas of idiots. it always feels condescending to me, even if i agree with their point-of-view.

i feel strongly about eliminating preaching, judgement, and sentimentality from my poetry. i think about it all the time, even while writing.

 

[The_Fool]

sustained, counselor.

what we're going for in this thread, i thought, if it's even possible, are general rules ( the word 'commandments' probably was not a good starting point ) to go by. none of which would have no exceptions, of course.

"coloring" is one thing. out-and-out judgement is another, i think.

i just prefer the reader figure out what to feel by themselves when i write, rather than being an arrogant writer and telling them how to feel.

i think it is a standard error novice poets make, writing anti-war or protest poetry, or making judgement on an issue they feel strongly about, assuming their position is gospel and unassailable and dissenting views are the ideas of idiots. it always feels condescending to me, even if i agree with their point-of-view.

i feel strongly about eliminating preaching, judgement, and sentimentality from my poetry. i think about it all the time, even while writing.

Paint the border, paint the outline, let the reader fill in the rest.

 

[flyguy69]

sustained, counselor.

what we're going for in this thread, i thought, if it's even possible, are general rules ( the word 'commandments' probably was not a good starting point ) to go by. none of which would have no exceptions, of course.

"coloring" is one thing. out-and-out judgement is another, i think.

i just prefer the reader figure out what to feel by themselves when i write, rather than being an arrogant writer and telling them how to feel.

i think it is a standard error novice poets make, writing anti-war or protest poetry, or making judgement on an issue they feel strongly about, assuming their position is gospel and unassailable and dissenting views are the ideas of idiots. it always feels condescending to me, even if i agree with their point-of-view.

i feel strongly about eliminating preaching, judgement, and sentimentality from my poetry. i think about it all the time, even while writing.

I know that this was a weakness in my early writing (and continues to be a struggle), and it is not simply an issue of excessively descriptive writing. At least, not entirely. My, like many new writer's, poetry provided more than a description of events or settings-- it also included language about how a reader ought to feel.

Phrases like "a beautiful girl" are less helpful than "a redhead with freckles across the bridge of her nose" despite the greater details, because I have told the reader how to feel about her rather than let the reader simply experience her.

 

[PatCarrington]

Can you have a look through my poetry and pick one out that you can comment on that uses judgemental writing? At this point, I'm thinking perhaps the War Wages one is what you're meaning.

War Wages
by wildsweetone ©

There is an anger to this land,
A destructive resonance in the air.
There is a raging rape of life,
A pillaging of land once beautiful
Now desolate with the ruins of war.
A steady rain of rapid gunfire,
And a sniper targeting those who will die.

There is an anger to this land,
A rumbling building disharmony of molten lava.
A wave of red hot anger
Spewing through villages and lives,
Destroying life.
A building anger of greed and frustration
Burning and killing
That which stands in its way.


WSO,


i see very little judgemental language in this poem of yours. i think you did a very good job keeping judgement out of it, showing instead of telling, and letting the reader "fill in the rest" as Fool says above.

i do not like your use of the word "greed" in the third from last line, for the very reasons we are discussing. and i think the last three lines are the weakest grouping of the poem by far, for the same reason ( and mostly because of that one word ). they judge. in my opinion, they should be rewritten.

in contrast, i think the double-used line "there is an anger to this land" is just wonderful.

this is NOT the poetry of a novice at all. nor is it the poetry of someone who thinks they know something the reader does not and is trying to enlighten them.

i think it's good, and NOT an example of the weak, preaching poetry i have been talking about.

 

[twelveoone]

War Wages
by wildsweetone ©

There is an anger to this land,
A destructive resonance in the air.
There is a raging rape of life,
A pillaging of land once beautiful
Now desolate with the ruins of war.
A steady rain of rapid gunfire,
And a sniper targeting those who will die.

There is an anger to this land,
A rumbling building disharmony of molten lava.
A wave of red hot anger
Spewing through villages and lives,
Destroying life.
A building anger of greed and frustration
Burning and killing
That which stands in its way.


WSO,


i see very little judgemental language in this poem of yours. i think you did a very good job keeping judgement out of it, showing instead of telling, and letting the reader "fill in the rest" as Fool says above.

i do not like your use of the word "greed" in the third from last line, for the very reasons we are discussing. and i think the last three lines are the weakest grouping of the poem by far, for the same reason ( and mostly because of that one word ). they judge. in my opinion, they should be rewritten.

in contrast, i think the double-used line "there is an anger to this land" is just wonderful.

this is NOT the poetry of a novice at all. nor is it the poetry of someone who thinks they know something the reader does not and is trying to enlighten them.

i think it's good, and NOT an example of the weak, preaching poetry i have been talking about.

Excellent, Pat.
Of course you can always sneak in "greed" if you feel the need.
as in "the greedy rain of gunfire" solves also the "steady rain" stock.
What say, Pat? Judgemental here?

 

[PatCarrington]

Excellent, Pat.
Of course you can always sneak in "greed" if you feel the need.
as in "the greedy rain of gunfire" solves also the "steady rain" stock.
What say, Pat? Judgemental here?

greedy rain of gunfire is far better than steady rain of gunfire, i agree.

"steady rain" is too stock. very ordinary, even cliche (an entirely different problem than we are talking about -- and one which should be worked into any rules ones sets for oneself when writing poetry ).

to me, 'greedy' is NOT judgemental when used that way, as it is in the original usage.

that is something that has been discussed on other threads. the word itself is not the problem, the usage is.

 

[wildsweetone]

Good grief. Okay thank you for taking the time to look at War Wages Pat. I appreciate the way you've commented

Can you explain to me how 'greed' is a judgemental word whereas 'rape', or perhaps that should be 'raging' in the first verse, is not?

Is there a fine line or is it something that's staring me in the face and I'm not quite seeing it clear yet?

(going to see if I can find the 'useage' threads)

 

[twelveoone]

Good grief. Okay thank you for taking the time to look at War Wages Pat. I appreciate the way you've commented

Can you explain to me how 'greed' is a judgemental word whereas 'rape', or perhaps that should be 'raging' in the first verse, is not?

Is there a fine line or is it something that's staring me in the face and I'm not quite seeing it clear yet?

(going to see if I can find the 'useage' threads)

cutting in- greed is an attribute, rape is an act.
Back in September, or October of last year, Pat had did a thread "Interact (3?) where he did a line by line explanation of one of his poems, about word choice and placement. I was going to bring it back up, but I wanted to ask for his permission, and didn't get a chance.
You can go look for it, it is worth it.

 

[PatCarrington]

Good grief. Okay thank you for taking the time to look at War Wages Pat. I appreciate the way you've commented

Can you explain to me how 'greed' is a judgemental word whereas 'rape', or perhaps that should be 'raging' in the first verse, is not?

Is there a fine line or is it something that's staring me in the face and I'm not quite seeing it clear yet?

(going to see if I can find the 'useage' threads)

There is an anger to this land,
A destructive resonance in the air.
There is a raging rape of life,


i think 1201 has a point, saying that "greed is an attribute, rape is an act." to me, there is more to it than that. it is the way those words are presented in your poem.

your use of rape in the first stanza is done with 'separation', a subtle distance between author and event. you are presenting the picture without emotion, without the slightest hint of fault or blame.....


A building anger of greed and frustration
Burning and killing
That which stands in its way.


.....whereas in the end of the poem you have taken sides. you place blame for the ravages on the attributes, and also on the people (whoever they may be), and there is no longer that separation between you and the poem. now, you are instructing the reader in the proper way to feel about the situation, making a judgement that there is blame to place, that someone is heartless and wrong. so, to me, i lose the experience of what you are writing about and am turned off by the righteous chanting.

that's the way i read it, anyhow.

 

[wildsweetone]

War Wages
by wildsweetone ©

There is an anger to this land,
A destructive resonance in the air.
There is a raging rape of life,
A pillaging of land once beautiful
Now desolate with the ruins of war.
A steady rain of rapid gunfire,
And a sniper targeting those who will die.

There is an anger to this land,
A rumbling building disharmony of molten lava.
A wave of red hot anger
Spewing through villages and lives,
Destroying life.
A building anger of greed and frustration
Burning and killing
That which stands in its way.

Just fiddling out loud for a few moments to see if I understand what you're saying...

#

There is an anger to this land,
A rumbling building disharmony of molten lava.
A wave of red hot anger
Spewing through villages and lives,
Destroying life.
A building anger of frustration
To burn and kill
That which stands in its way.


#
There is an anger to this land,
A rumbling building disharmony of molten lava.
A wave of red hot anger
Spewing through villages and lives,
Destroying life.
A building anger burning and killing
That which stands in its way.

#
There is an anger to this land,
A rumbling building disharmony of molten lava.
A wave of red hot anger
Spewing through villages and lives,
Destroying life.
A building anger
burning barricades.

#

There is an anger to this land,
a rumbling building disharmony
of molten lava, a wave of red hot
anger, spewing through villages and lives,
destroying life.
A building anger
burning barricades.

#

There is an anger to this land,
a rumbling building disharmony
of molten lava, a wave of red hot
anger, spewing through villages
lives destroying life.
A building anger
burning barricades.


I'll stop there, I think I could play forever just with this one verse and obviously I should have played more before posting. Knowing when to stop is a learning curve for me.

I think I've got it to the point of having 'no personal opinion'. I think I've kept the metaphor in tact and I think the rewording has strengthened the verse as a whole.



...Thanks for the thread title 1201. I'll look.

 

[PatCarrington]

Just fiddling out loud for a few moments to see if I understand what you're saying...

#

There is an anger to this land,
A rumbling building disharmony of molten lava.
A wave of red hot anger
Spewing through villages and lives,
Destroying life.
A building anger of frustration
To burn and kill
That which stands in its way...............

#

There is an anger to this land,
a rumbling building disharmony
of molten lava, a wave of red hot
anger, spewing through villages
lives destroying life.
A building anger
burning barricades.



I think I've got it to the point of having 'no personal opinion'. I think I've kept the metaphor in tact and I think the rewording has strengthened the verse as a whole.

wso,

from the standpoint of removing "judgmental" language, i agree.

whether the phrasing needs improvement or the triple repeat of "anger" is effective are entirely different questions, but you have indeed provided more separation between poet and event.

 

[PatCarrington]

.....