Tense

[Shwenn]

I'll tell you this much, if I get a book by a truly accomplished writer and I see that it is written in first person, I become very wary.

I pay much closer attention.

I always think they chose first person for a big reason. It is usually because they are writing suspicious narrative or because they intend to pull a twist on you and they need a severely limited POV in order to keep you clueless.

 

[sr71plt]

On thing I've always had trouble with is sticking to one tense in a story when it wasn't necessary to switch. I don't feel like I'm a crappy writer because of it, I just feel like that is the one area (next to grammar) that I need to pay extra attention to. I feel we as writers all have 'one or two things' that we're like oops! about.



I remember reading a few helpful threads here before even considering posting my work. One of the things I disagreed with was that writing in first person is harder. I was kind of shocked by this because frankly I find first person to be the easiest thing in the world. Whenever I've made personalities and histories on RP sites and they ask for 'first person' it's like I can hear the heavens opening up! It takes me all of fifteen minutes to punch out four or five paragraphs where as the norm is to do it in third person past tense and that usually takes me forever and I drag my feet.

I feel like in first person its just easier on the simple fact that you can make it that much more personal. It's like make-believe in a sense that you're taking on your character and running with it. Does that mean when you write in third person your not connected? Absolutely not I actually feel more connected to my stories because I'm connected to every character, it's a challenge to give life to multiple people and not just your narrator.

I do understand why most erotica is written in first person because it seems more personal, my story and future ones, are in third person I've always just favored that obviously. I might dabble in first person when I'm done with this series.

Now I'm not knocking narratives at all so please don't get that idea, I'm just kind of curious as what you all think. As in which is easier first or third.

I've written in all three (and a mix as well--I just checked my latest story here and it did, as I surmised, have an internal change of tense--purposely), and somehow my mind has already worked out which one I'll be writing in when I sit down to write. I think often the nature of the story dictates the tense and automatically trying to force it into another tense will make it awkward--unless you're really, really good at manipulating the words/moods.

As I've noted, I also find the first person the easiest to fall into. But that's just me.

I find your "I do understand why most erotica is written in first person" comment very interesting, as more than one of our self-appointed writing gurus habitually says "most erotica is written in the third person--and should be." I have no idea what the truth of that is--and think it's really sort of irrelevant to how a specific story should best be approached by a specific writer

 

[sr71plt]

I'll tell you this much, if I get a book by a truly accomplished writer and I see that it is written in first person, I become very wary.

I pay much closer attention.

I always think they chose first person for a big reason. It is usually because they are writing suspicious narrative or because they intend to pull a twist on you and they need a severely limited POV in order to keep you clueless.

In many cases, one of their main themes is showing that the inner protagonist stands in stark contrast in some way to their public persona and that this adds dimension and revelation to the storyline as a whole.

 

[nicole_quinn26]

I've written in all three (and a mix as well--I just checked my latest story here and it did, as I surmised, have an internal change of tense--purposely), and somehow my mind has already worked out which one I'll be writing in when I sit down to write. I think often the nature of the story dictates the tense and automatically trying to force it into another tense will make it awkward--unless you're really, really good at manipulating the words/moods.

As I've noted, I also find the first person the easiest to fall into. But that's just me.

I find your "I do understand why most erotica is written in first person" comment very interesting, as more than one of our self-appointed writing gurus habitually says "most erotica is written in the third person--and should be." I have no idea what the truth of that is--and think it's really sort of irrelevant to how a specific story should best be approached by a specific writer

I feel like in first person you can make the story about you instead of some distant character you can't relate to. Like this person is touching you the reader and not a character because it's written in first person so in some ways I feel like it makes it more approachable?

Ex: I began to shiver as his hands made the slow path down my stomach towards my throbbing pussy...
vs
Colette began to shiver as Reginalds hands began to slowly make there way down her stomach towards her throbbing pussy...

First person seems more personal I suppose?

I'm actually half tempted to put my series on hold and do a first person just to see if there's a different response. Seeing as you've written different styles have you noticed a bigger response to one versus the other?

 

[Shwenn]

In many cases, one of their main themes is showing that the inner protagonist stands in stark contrast in some way to their public persona and that this adds dimension and revelation to the storyline as a whole.

I don't understand.

I'm using that in my story Impact Event and found third person omniscient lends itself especially well to it. I had two chapters from two different povs before the third which is his pov.

I wanted you to see this guy through two sets of eyes before you got inside his head.

 

[Saucy_Sage]

On thing I've always had trouble with is sticking to one tense in a story when it wasn't necessary to switch. I don't feel like I'm a crappy writer because of it, I just feel like that is the one area (next to grammar) that I need to pay extra attention to. I feel we as writers all have 'one or two things' that we're like oops! about.



I remember reading a few helpful threads here before even considering posting my work. One of the things I disagreed with was that writing in first person is harder. I was kind of shocked by this because frankly I find first person to be the easiest thing in the world. Whenever I've made personalities and histories on RP sites and they ask for 'first person' it's like I can hear the heavens opening up! It takes me all of fifteen minutes to punch out four or five paragraphs where as the norm is to do it in third person past tense and that usually takes me forever and I drag my feet.

I feel like in first person its just easier on the simple fact that you can make it that much more personal. It's like make-believe in a sense that you're taking on your character and running with it. Does that mean when you write in third person your not connected? Absolutely not I actually feel more connected to my stories because I'm connected to every character, it's a challenge to give life to multiple people and not just your narrator.

I do understand why most erotica is written in first person because it seems more personal, my story and future ones, are in third person I've always just favored that obviously. I might dabble in first person when I'm done with this series.

Now I'm not knocking narratives at all so please don't get that idea, I'm just kind of curious as what you all think. As in which is easier first or third.

Personally, I find it much harder to write in third person. If I think I'm getting better at first person, lol, I'll eventually feel compelled to try third person just to better myself as a writer. I've only written in past tense so far, as well, although present tense intrigues me. Maybe later - much, much later - I might be tempted to try all of them in the same story. In the meantime, though, I'll have to work to make sure I don't do it accidentally, which is really the problem that the original poster identified, I think.

 

[sr71plt]

Seeing as you've written different styles have you noticed a bigger response to one versus the other?

Second person doesn't seem to go over too well. Nor am I often motivated to try writing in it.

I get the most (and most visceral) response from first-person stories.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't understand.

I'm using that in my story Impact Event and found third person omniscient lends itself especially well to it. I had two chapters from two different povs before the third which is his pov.

I wanted you to see this guy through two sets of eyes before you got inside his head.

That, of course, is a doable way to handle it.

I think when you do it in first person, letting the reader (slowly, often) discern for him/herself the disconnect between what the protagonist says/does and who they really are inside, you can keep the reader more intimately engaged (and will have a certain kind of reader more appreciative in the end--they feel actively involved in untangling the issues).

You can certainly maintain control by using omnisicence. Readers who don't want to work too hard, who like to have it laid out for them, like this approach best. British readers still like it; Americans, not so much. There are times when I have so much going on in other aspects of my life and I've turned to reading precisely to be entertained without working my brain hard that I prefer a read like this too.

The problem with a story/book is that whether or not it succeeds with an individual reader doesn't entirely depend on what the writer does; it depends to a certain extent on where the reader is in what she/he is looking for when she reads it--and this moves along a mutlidimensional scale that not only depends on the tastes of the individual reader overall but also on the reader's circumstance of the moment.

 

[Shwenn]

I think when you do it in first person, letting the reader (slowly, often) discern for him/herself the disconnect between what the protagonist says/does and who they really are inside, you can keep the reader more intimately engaged (and will have a certain kind of reader more appreciative in the end--they feel actively involved in untangling the issues).

I really just consider it a device, a pretty obvious, uninteresting one at that. When I make my readers work for something, it's going to be something worth working for.



I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. I'm just trying to be as pompous and condescending to you as you're being to me.

Mine was tighter than yours.

 

[sr71plt]

I really just consider it a device, a pretty obvious, uninteresting one at that. When I make my readers work for something, it's going to be something worth working for.



I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. I'm just trying to be as pompous and condescending to you as you're being to me.

Mine was tighter than yours.

Oh? Pompous and condescending? How so? Where did that come from? Everything you said you preferred doing, I said was a fine way to approach it, if you liked.


I had no idea you were just baiting me. My bad.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Dull and anal-retentive writing advice leads to dull, run-of-the-mill stories. Suggest those looking for writing advice read up on those giving the advice to help them determine for themselves where success lies in their own writing.

This is cheap and a complete non-sequitur.

Affected and 'look-at-me' writing makes the reader put the book down, however good the plot. The whole point of most writers here is to tell a good story. The nuances of good writing come much later.

Although I think it is possible to write fiction in the present tense, it is pretty universally felt this is difficult to read and interferes with the seamlessness of the story. To advise writers to avoid this is merely to echo the majority of university creative writing professors. The problems with temporal displacement and restrictions on the timeframe of the plot are best avoided for a long while.

Even John Updike, whose 'Rabbit,Run' was, IMO, one of the few present tense successes, said he was trying to write a screenplay. He could see the credits rolling in front of the images of his first chapter.

To quote Elizabeth Crook,

Watch Out for First Person.

"I put down three books recently because I was annoyed with the first person viewpoint, which came across as self-absorbed. Unless you’re writing in the form of letters or journals, make sure any first-person character has a good reason to be telling his story. People tend not to like people who notice themselves too much or describe themselves or seem overly aware of how others perceive them. Anyone relating a story about himself -- what he said, what he was wearing, what inflection he had in his voice or what gesture he made as he spoke some pronouncement -- we dismiss as annoying and self-important. We feel the same about characters. There are many beautiful books written in first person, but know the challenge of this before you start out, and be sure to give a credible reason why your character needs to tell his story and why he deserves an audience."

Here, so many first person stories fall into the trap of becoming a report, "Let me tell you about myself". I see no problem in advising new writers to avoid the pitfall of confusing storyteller and roleplayer by staying with third party.

Despite what you think, there is no need to 'push the envelope' to create good writing. A manuscript in present tense or first person is less likely to avoid the agents' and publishers' slushpiles than third person, past tense.

Most authors who have gone from Lit to be published have a skill in narration and plot that you would describe as anally-retentive. It may be populist, but I, and their readers, consider it consummate ability. (I'm just envious).

Lay off, we're in the business here of writing 3-act stories that the readers like. For that, the tried and trusted weapons of a good story, in third party, in the past tense, with no narrator interjections with characters that can be loved or hated earn the plaudits.

 

[sr71plt]

Lay off, we're in the business here of writing 3-act stories that the readers like. For that, the tried and trusted weapons of a good story, in third party, in the past tense, with no narrator interjections with characters that can be loved or hated earn the plaudits.

Ah, that must be part of your problem (other than trying to get everyone to ascribe to your own personal preferences). You think we are in some sort of business here--and that it's YOUR business.

I think the writers here can write whatever they damn well like writing--in the tenses and voices they'd like trying to write it in. If I comment on what they've done, it will be in the context of what they were trying to do--not my own cookie cutter preferences for what they do. Obviously you're going to continue to do it your way from your limited horizons.

Just as long as the writer checks out the advice they are given, you probably can't do them too much harm.

 

[tickledkitty]

I've come to the conclusion, sr, that people are going to disagree with you no matter what you say. You could say the sky is blue, and ten people will crawl out of the woodwork and tell you you're wrong. I also think anybody who's been around a while knows this, even though they're afraid to jump off the sr71plt-haters bandwagon long enough to admit it.

A number of writers here use first person for most of their stories. Many of these are on the favorites lists and have been awarded big fat W's and E's and, certainly H's. Now, tell me, folks that those letters don't mean anything to you, and I'll say you're full of shit. Self-indulgent, perhaps. But it works for erotica, as is proven here over and over again.

Yes, present tense is difficult, and I don't like it either, but I don't think it's fair to tell people unequivocally not to use it. I also don't think it's fair to assume that you speak for the group, elfin, when you talk about your "tried and trusted weapons of a good story." I don't notice you setting the world on fire with your writing, and my personal "tried and trusted weapons" are different from yours.

 

[Shwenn]

Oh? Pompous and condescending? How so? Where did that come from? Everything you said you preferred doing, I said was a fine way to approach it, if you liked.


I had no idea you were just baiting me. My bad.

I wasn't baiting you until that last post. And even that wasn't really baiting you because I told you it was baiting you.

This is how so:
"You can certainly maintain control by using omnisicence. Readers who don't want to work too hard, who like to have it laid out for them, like this approach best."

If you can't see how pompous and condescending that is, I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you. Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about anymore at this point. I read your post and didn't even think we were having the same conversation anymore.

This:
"I think when you do it in first person, letting the reader (slowly, often) discern for him/herself the disconnect between what the protagonist says/does and who they really are inside"

Made me realize you are actually talking about a suspicious narrative. But that was the first thing I mentioned really great writers will do with first person. So, why would you add that? Maybe that isn't what you meant?

But I didn't really care what you meant. This was just so awesomely pompous and condescending, I had to poke it:

"You can certainly maintain control by using omnisicence. Readers who don't want to work too hard, who like to have it laid out for them, like this approach best."

I don't think my readers are lazy at all. I don't think I lay everything out there for them. If anything, it is obvious from my emails that my readers are very intelligent and/or college educated. My fans use big words, some of which are new to me. And they tell me how happy they are to see something so literary in internet porn. They can tell that my background is in literature. My fans are pretty sharp.

Thanks for telling my it is fine for me to write obvious literature for a lazy audience, though.

Let me return the favor by telling you it is perfectly fine for you to be a pompous, bombastic blowhard. A lot of people enjoy those kinds of personalities. See, I'm not insulting you, either.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Ah, that must be part of your problem (other than trying to get everyone to ascribe to your own personal preferences). You think we are in some sort of business here--and that it's YOUR business.

I think the writers here can write whatever they damn well like writing--in the tenses and voices they'd like trying to write it in. If I comment on what they've done, it will be in the context of what they were trying to do--not my own cookie cutter preferences for what they do. Obviously you're going to continue to do it your way from your limited horizons.

Just as long as the writer checks out the advice they are given, you probably can't do them too much harm.

I think, as many others have told you here, that the false horizons and inability to empathize that are characteristic of your comments, and reflect unfairly on aspiring writers here.

If you believe what you say, why hang around this part of the board. You're clearly too esoteric and erudite for us poor mortals. The only person - other than you - who has been disparaging has been Scouries. Now I realise you are blood brothers. I have realistic horizons - unlike you, apparently - from feedback, whatever the value of my comments, lack of empathy is not what I have been accused of.

Can you claim the same? I think not from what I've read.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I've come to the conclusion, sr, that people are going to disagree with you no matter what you say. You could say the sky is blue, and ten people will crawl out of the woodwork and tell you you're wrong. I also think anybody who's been around a while knows this, even though they're afraid to jump off the sr71plt-haters bandwagon long enough to admit it.

A number of writers here use first person for most of their stories. Many of these are on the favorites lists and have been awarded big fat W's and E's and, certainly H's. Now, tell me, folks that those letters don't mean anything to you, and I'll say you're full of shit. Self-indulgent, perhaps. But it works for erotica, as is proven here over and over again.

Yes, present tense is difficult, and I don't like it either, but I don't think it's fair to tell people unequivocally not to use it. I also don't think it's fair to assume that you speak for the group, elfin, when you talk about your "tried and trusted weapons of a good story." I don't notice you setting the world on fire with your writing, and my personal "tried and trusted weapons" are different from yours.

Fair comment.

On this forum the general request is 'how can I get readers to read me and vote?'. To start turning lit into the ERWA is silly.

I speak for myself and not for any group, but I am saddened that good writers, writers I respect, are trying to ambush a forum that, by its very nature, helps the neophytes that are the lifeblood of Lit.

Guys like you and sr can play with first person - most writers can't.

I don't think you're playing fair.

 

[4glory6]

Let me return the favor by telling you it is perfectly fine for you to be a pompous, bombastic blowhard. A lot of people enjoy those kinds of personalities.

Good, guess you can stay then.

 

[4glory6]

Fair comment.

On this forum the general request is 'how can I get readers to read me and vote?'. To start turning lit into the ERWA is silly.

I speak for myself and not for any group, but I am saddened that good writers, writers I respect, are trying to ambush a forum that, by its very nature, helps the neophytes that are the lifeblood of Lit.

Guys like you and sr can play with first person - most writers can't.

I don't think you're playing fair.

I'll freely admit that SR71 is my favorite author on this site, although I've read very good other writers too. At least in my book, if he can write them that way, he certainly knows how to do it. I'm just a reader myself, but the forum is one area in which I read, and I've seen him be nothing but supportive to other writers on this forum.

 

[Shwenn]

Good, guess you can stay then.

Why am I picturing sock puppets in my head right now?

 

[4glory6]

Why am I picturing sock puppets in my head right now?

As I said, I freely admit SR71 is my favorite author here. Maybe you'll have some favorite reader come along and give you a kiss now too.

 

[tickledkitty]

Why am I picturing sock puppets in my head right now?

I don't know. Why are you?

 

[tickledkitty]

Fair comment.

On this forum the general request is 'how can I get readers to read me and vote?'. To start turning lit into the ERWA is silly.

I speak for myself and not for any group, but I am saddened that good writers, writers I respect, are trying to ambush a forum that, by its very nature, helps the neophytes that are the lifeblood of Lit.

Guys like you and sr can play with first person - most writers can't.

I don't think you're playing fair.

Thank you.

I think the general request here is really "How can I improve my writing?" I don't think anyone is trying to turn Lit into the ERWA, but what's wrong with trying to aspire to a certain level?

I don't think sr and I are the only ones who can play with first person. Yes, there is a challenge in getting it to sound like a story and not like a shopping list of "I did this, and he did that," but that's part of the fun in it, being able to meet that challenge. There are challenges for me too in writing third person. First is so much easier for me, and I believe it probably is for others too. Third is easier for you. Good.

I don't know what you mean by "not playing fair." I'm not trying to force anyone into using first person or anything else that works for me. I make suggestions based on what works for me, and that is all they are. Suggestions.

 

[_Lynn_]

Thank you.

I think the general request here is really "How can I improve my writing?" I don't think anyone is trying to turn Lit into the ERWA, but what's wrong with trying to aspire to a certain level?

I don't think sr and I are the only ones who can play with first person. Yes, there is a challenge in getting it to sound like a story and not like a shopping list of "I did this, and he did that," but that's part of the fun in it, being able to meet that challenge. There are challenges for me too in writing third person. First is so much easier for me, and I believe it probably is for others too. Third is easier for you. Good.

I don't know what you mean by "not playing fair." I'm not trying to force anyone into using first person or anything else that works for me. I make suggestions based on what works for me, and that is all they are. Suggestions.

That's a very good point TK. Offering suggestions lets people choose whether they want to follow them or not. Learning something from each story they write will help them get a feel for their own style.

Just my opinion.

 

[tickledkitty]

That's a very good point TK. Offering suggestions lets people choose whether they want to follow them or not. Learning something from each story they write will help them get a feel for their own style.

Just my opinion.

Yeah, I agree. This place has changed a great deal over the past year, or so it seems to me. I put my first story up here as I was writing my second one, and I got a lot of really good advice. Granted, I didn't follow all of it. I just don't remember people arguing and poking at each other this way. Maybe I was just too much of a noob to understand what was going on. I don't know. I actually found this forum very helpful though, and it's a shame we aren't still providing that for others.

 

[_Lynn_]

Yeah, I agree. This place has changed a great deal over the past year, or so it seems to me. I put my first story up here as I was writing my second one, and I got a lot of really good advice. Granted, I didn't follow all of it. I just don't remember people arguing and poking at each other this way. Maybe I was just too much of a noob to understand what was going on. I don't know. I actually found this forum very helpful though, and it's a shame we aren't still providing that for others.

Same here. I had a few authors I met that helped me with tips and suggestions from the beginning. There are a lot of newbies around that want help along with a few that know it all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but all the rest is getting so old. A 'friendly' debate is one thing if it's just that.

I've always believed that I've gone through challenges in life for a reason. That is to pass the knowledge I've learned on to others. This forum is full of talented authors. It's too bad more can't take a few minutes away from the arguing and offer a hand to a new writer. It's a great feeling to share and know you've helped. Believe me, I know.