The abject: disgusting and demeaning and sex

[Pure]

trying to relate 'abject' to this forum, it obviously relates to some fetishes as well as degradation (insofar at that's anything the bottom undergoes).

but here are a couple points, often made by roscoe and others: these areas of SM are not in the newly polished image of "it's all healthy' and 'let's all love our bodies' and 'we deeply respect one another.' further the issue of motives, comes up; some of these are not 'nice', e.g. the motive to hurt, to degrade,etc.

secondly a powerful part of the concept is its biological roots; we're wired so that some things are repellant, e.g. the universal taboos around dead bodies. so it's not a matter of reaching some sublime or jaded level where one says, yes i ate my partner's shit yesterday and it was no big deal.

as Kristeva says, the 'retching' reaction marks our encounters with some things.*

that's heavy play if one partner is made or induced to swallow something --like a quart of warm, salty piss--to the point of retching. at that point the partner can be as jaded and debonair as they like, hunched over the toilet or a pan on the floor, but they have become an abject figure. and they know that, despite the bravado.

some of this may affect the issue of 'avant garde.' artists try to push the limits, and in the last fifty years come up some powerful stuff, like bodies[replicas] on meat hooks. so in one sense, one may not be able to go further with abjection to the level of meat, then shit. Sobibor may not be surpassed; maybe one never 'surpasses' the abjected person's going up the smokestack. but the psychology of these topics, is not, and perhaps never is exhausted.

---
*it's true that people like morticians, routinely deal with dead bodies. but my guess is that that 'professionalism' is a kind of role play, distancing, automatism, etc. were that calm guy to wake up to a rotting corpse next to him, he'd freak as much as anyone else.

 

[Netzach]

Sobibor may not be surpassed; maybe one never 'surpasses' the abjected person's going up the smokestack. but the psychology of these topics, is not, and perhaps never is exhausted.

Uh this is a good thing. Albeit untrue, we're always working up to some more obscenities politically.

I once hurled into a box in the kitchen at a house party my freshman year. That was probably the most embarrassing moment of my life, and nothing sexually has come close to touching it. The Iggy Pop thing to do is lick it up, but I'm not THAT much of a stud. Just really insanely drunk, never to be that drunk again. (Well maybe a few vomiting episodes, but sans cardboard box and audience)

 

[BiBunny]

Kristeva--shades of Literary Theory class.

I'm about to go to Subway, so I don't have time to really think about this and type all my thoughts out, but the abject is beautiful to me in a deep, twisted way.

 

[Life_Noir]

Kristeva--shades of Literary Theory class.

I'm about to go to Subway, so I don't have time to really think about this and type all my thoughts out, but the abject is beautiful to me in a deep, twisted way.

Indeed...And thats why we love you so......

 

[Pure]

hi netz,

good to see you.

I once hurled into a box in the kitchen at a house party my freshman year. That was probably the most embarrassing moment of my life, and nothing sexually has come close to touching it.

but doesn't this suggest possibilities to you? invite some friends over for dinner--to serve as audience. afterwards, administer a tablespoon full of just the right substance to your SO. arrange for the bathroom to be occupied, but a box near the door.

when our body can't help but react to something--e.g., the right amt of castor oil--, we become controlled by the reptilian brain, the autonomic nervous system, and pride is out the door.

and, as i suggested in my earlier post, it's hard for the subjected one to be cool and jaded about these sorts of event. the smart assed one is much less so with vomit dripping off her chin.

the orgasm too, causes abjection in the proper circumstances--it just takes a bit of arranging so that the moment is guaranteed to insure the subjected one's embarrassment, shame, humiliation, whatever.

 

[Netzach]

good to see you.

I once hurled into a box in the kitchen at a house party my freshman year. That was probably the most embarrassing moment of my life, and nothing sexually has come close to touching it.

but doesn't this suggest possibilities to you? invite some friends over for dinner--to serve as audience. afterwards, administer a tablespoon full of just the right substance to your SO. arrange for the bathroom to be occupied, but a box near the door.

when our body can't help but react to something--e.g., the right amt of castor oil--, we become controlled by the reptilian brain, the autonomic nervous system, and pride is out the door.

and, as i suggested in my earlier post, it's hard for the subjected one to be cool and jaded about these sorts of event. the smart assed one is much less so with vomit dripping off her chin.

the orgasm too, causes abjection in the proper circumstances--it just takes a bit of arranging so that the moment is guaranteed to insure the subjected one's embarrassment, shame, humiliation, whatever.

You know, I must be calming in my dotage, but this just doesn't trip my wires.

 

[Pure]

well, i can only quote what you said about the memorable embarrassment of the occasion.

since your bloodlust is down this eve, how about the well known scene, wherein a person is denied access to a restroom until they pee themselves.

if memory serves, you once limned the following: have the unfortunate (or fortunate) male subject jerk off onto the floor and lick it up. or am i hallucinating.

 

[Netzach]

well, i can only quote what you said about the memorable embarrassment of the occasion.

since your bloodlust is down this eve, how about the well known scene, wherein a person is denied access to a restroom until they pee themselves.

if memory serves, you once limned the following: have the unfortunate (or fortunate) male subject jerk off onto the floor and lick it up. or am i hallucinating.

LOL ok, ok, I'm with you on the other two.

I don't know why vomit crosses the line of the eroticizeable to me. I can get my brain eround vomiting ON someone as gesture of contempt, sort of. I did get almost coaxed out of pro retirement because someone wanted to eat my snot tissues and I thought to myself, well at least this one's outside the box!

 

[Pure]

I don't know why vomit crosses the line of the eroticizeable to me. I can get my brain eround vomiting ON someone as gesture of contempt, sort of. I did get almost coaxed out of pro retirement because someone wanted to eat my snot tissues and I thought to myself, well at least this one's outside the box!

hey, vomitus is yekkky stuff, disgusting; hardly much above bird poop (to use your example), and to be treated as such. but in fact, it's clean and won't harm the bottom.

after all, it's a part of him or her. since it's from the bottom, deserves to go right back in. after a couple mins to let the stomach settle; . i'd suggest something like a big scoop to deal with the yekkky stuff. then use a funnel in his or her mouth, while pouring it back; feeding this one just like you do a goose. if he or she gags, tant pis.

the abjection is in his or her inability to 'keep it down,' initially, in being 'fed' like a goose, and (if it happens) in the gagging.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I think that examples like those discussed, while distasteful, are about extremes of a voluntary power exchange. If someone were to consent to those things, they would only have themselves to blame and villify. If pracitces like feeding someone their own vomit were forced on someone who had categorically withdrawn consent they would be as repellant to me as any other form of degrading sexually motivated attack. While I wouldn't practice vomit play myself, surely consent is consent, no matter what for?

 

[Pure]

thanks velvet,
actually i believe i posted a famous poem about a corpse early on in this thread, by the French author Baudelaire, who knew about what's repellent.

i'm not sure i know how SM as practiced legally, has anything today to do with corpses, but as Netzach mentioned we're all right next door to being bird food. anything that underlines for the bottom, his or her nearness to that, perhaps fits the thread topic. personally i'm not that interested in putting anyone in physical danger of dying, e.g. cutting off their air for more than a few seconds. the example of waterboarding comes to mind; a cloth over someone's face that is dowsed with water gives sensations that call up the fear of drowning, even though that's not actually a danger.

preferable, however, might be the pure mindfucks, or minor physical measures (perfectly safe), that have that reminder [of mortality] function. anyone have any ideas.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

thanks velvet,
actually i believe i posted a famous poem about a corpse early on in this thread, by the French author Baudelaire, who knew about what's repellent.

Yeah, it was a really good poem and what prompted me to post I guess. I think that the baseness of sex, the primative, organic messiness of it, reminds us what it truly means to be a living, breathing creature unfettered by modern life. People who have been recently bereaved or who have come close to death often report what feels like an inappropriate increase of libido. It's the subconscious mind saying 'dammit you might be dead tomorrow, get out there and procreate!'

preferable, however, might be the pure mindfucks, or minor physical measures (perfectly safe), that have that reminder [of mortality] function. anyone have any ideas.

I know there are ways that people have performed mindfucks on their pyls. I did a quick and unsuccsessful thread search but I've read about people who have faked things like cutting, branding and needleplay. Also Evil Geoff wrote about someone who mummified a sub who thought she was breathing through a tube. Next thing she's taken outside and thrown into a swimming pool by a group of guys. She's actually breathing through a long vacuum cleaner hose and being closely supervised, is in minimal danger.

Sensory deprivation and prolonged total bondage can also mindfuck a pyl.

Is this the kind of thing you're after?

 

[Pure]

hi velvet,
good ideas there. i use 'mindfuck' in a generic sense for the top's toying with, upsetting, or generally affecting the subject's mind in unexpected ways, using methods which are primarily psychological, more than physical.

so not every mindfuck is about abjection, or related to it. it's an ordinary mindfuck to tell a blindfolded, restrained bottom, after a 'stranger fuck,' that she [he] has, in fact, just fucked her [his] best friend's husband [wife].

i think all the 'disgusting' substances mentioned can be props in a bringing a subject to 'touch' the feelings associated with this area. or perhaps it's sufficient to imagine drowning in bathtub of one's own piss to invoke thoughts and feelings concerning one's mortality and 'earthy'/material constitution.

---
incidentally, i think your earlier points about consent are generally relevant. if you don't have at least implicit or implied consent, then you're Leonard Lake or Heydrich, antisocial persons *actually* turning fellow human beings into dust. incidentally, this is the distinction between Sade the person, and the deadlier characters in his novels, e.g., Juliette.

 

[Pure]

a suggestion for those trying to get a handle on the topic

these are cross posted from the AH thread.

they are suggestions only.

easily recognizable indicators that suggest 'abject sex' or the experience of abjection:

a) being brought 'low';
b) having 'self' or 'worth' undercut;
c) being brought close to the experience or imagination of extinction; or
d) being faced with one's materiality and its inevitability