The blank check of consent

[the captians wench]

Yup, there is a definite hotness factor...it almost makes me want to be pouty about something to see if he will do it..almost being the key word there. I feel sure I'd end up getting way more than I bargained for, and not in a good way. He's a very laid back man, but he doesn't put up with any crap from me either.

This reminds me of something that very well could fit into this topic.

So last night we got to playing, and playing hard. i wanted a good cry and baby I got it. So I'm comming down and we get to teasing and joking and just a light hearted mood. He said something to me and I can't remember now, but in the spirit of the presant mood I stuck my tongue out at him.

I was then informed that I would be doing another 5 sit ups* for the tongue thing. I could have very well said "fuck you we were joking" or something simular, but I didn't. i got up and I did them and then we wen't back to joking and teasing again.

The sit ups is something that I agreed to do anytime it pleased him to see me do them and it pleased him for me to do them in that moment. It didn't even cross my mind that this could be a violation of my concent, but I think it paralells the example given by RJ.

*for those who don't know these aren't normal sit ups. These are a totally different creation involving a board with thumb tacks glued to it being placed on a chair, then me as the voluntere, bending over the bed, standing up streight with my hands on my head, sitting on said tack chair, putting my feet up on the bed, touching my toes, sitting back up, standing, and then returning to first position. They are a bitch!

 

[ownedsubgal]

i don't think that because a 'submissive' doesn't obey a command in the midst of an argument means she is 'nilla' or not a true submissive, i think it means she is human and angry and wants to work out whatever the issue is before doing anything sexual. yes, i said in the midst of an argument if i was ordered to give HIm oral, i would do it, but i would also be angry, probably very angry that He thought little enough of my feelings in the argument to stand and work it out instead He felt He needed oral right then and there, that would say alot, to me, about my feelings and what they mean to Him. He knows He could order it, but luckily for me, He's all about talking and resolving issues at the time they are brought up, rather than ordering me around when i'm upset. i think there is a time, when you can step outside of the D/s dynamic to discuss things as equals..ask for a time out or whatever, but i don't think that simply because i am submissive that i don't have a right to be upset and angry and i also don't think i have to agree with Him on everything He says or does....

well, i do not believe in the "time out" thing, as he is always Master, i am always slave, and it does not turn off and on like a light switch. if it did, that wouldn't be our idea of a M/s relationship, but rather a M/s roleplay game, a temporary escape from real life. but anywho, that's a whole other topic...

i never said or implied anywhere that a submissive does not have a right to be upset or angry, or must always be in agreement with their Dominant. we're all human, we experience human emotions. my Master and i do not technically argue, however if he all of a sudden ordered me to suck his cock in a very heated/upset moment, of course i would be upset, and most likely sad that he was being so callous. but i would not hesitate to immediately stop whatever else i was doing and suck his cock, even if tears were falling from my eyes while doing it. and, knowing him, that'd probably feed his sadistic drive and only arouse him that much more.

 

[Netzach]

Alright RJ, you know I love you and I hope you can keep that in mind while I proceed to disagree with you on this, a topic that isn't exactly virgin ground for us.

I admire that you're searching for answers here, because I do feel that the ideas you've expressed on consent in the past are somewhat simplistic, probably due to a lack of experience.

To answer your specific question, consent is not physical, it's mental. That is to say, it isn't defined by the action, but by the state of mind.

Here are a few examples:

1. I promise to come home by 5pm so we can go to some event. I end up going out with some friends and don't come home until after midnight. My sub says "where have you been? I've been trying to call you all day!" I say "fuck you bitch, I do what I want." She slaps me in the face. I grab her by the hair, wrestle her to the ground and fuck her while she protests, physically and verbally.

With every appearance of being nonconsensual, this sort of action would not only be acceptable but quite likely appreciated by the kind of perverse females I fuck with. It's not something I would pull every day, but transcending the immediate argument there is a more important understanding, that she is my woman and I'm allowed to take control.

In a healthy D/s relationship, consent isn't a by-law, it's more like the constitution.

2. My sub tells me we need to speak. She's very unhappy about some serious things in our relationship and demands we address these issues or she's ready to walk. I tell her she's not going anywhere and force sex on her.

In the spectrum of consent, this is far closer to an actual violation of the consent constitution. Being able to have serious discussions where she will be taken seriously is a requirement for the relationship, if I condescend that right, I forfeit my rights as her dominant.

3. My sub breaks up with me, tells me we're done and she doesn't want to see me anymore. Two weeks later I stalk her and rape her in an alley.

This is way, way, on the nonconsensual side of the spectrum. I may still feel like I have some claim to her, but she doesn't share those feelings and she has made that clear. This is completely nonconsensual.


I'm using sexual examples because you used one, but any of these could just as likely be non-sexual issues. Just because I can assume consent to fuck her doesn't mean I can assume consent to open her mail. Just because I have consent to open her mail, doesn't mean I have consent to sell her possessions on ebay.

It's just not that black and white RJ.

Really nicely put. I don't have anything to add really.

OK I lied. I do.

Being a D in this kind of scenario is all about cost-benefit analysis. There are certain arguments that can be halted with a dick to the mouth and the benefit is immense. There are other arguments which can't be halted that way without deeply affecting the relationship and the dynamic, for better OR for worse, but which will invoke measures of attention and "damage control" which may not be worth the display of power position in the first place.

 

[Marquis]

Being a D in this kind of scenario is all about cost-benefit analysis. There are certain arguments that can be halted with a dick to the mouth and the benefit is immense. There are other arguments which can't be halted that way without deeply affecting the relationship and the dynamic, for better OR for worse, but which will invoke measures of attention and "damage control" which may not be worth the display of power position in the first place.

This is so fucking true.

I've got to write something on the principles of economics as related to domination some day.

 

[Netzach]

This is so fucking true.

I've got to write something on the principles of economics as related to domination some day.

Neat, I'd love to read it.

But there are some universals to all the "management" training out there.

Better fucking through Captialism. Who'd thunk?

 

[myinnerslut]

[hijack]

This is so fucking true.

I've got to write something on the principles of economics as related to domination some day.

that so beats the economics course im currently taking.... at least id get a good grade in Prof. Marquis' class since its a topic i have some experience with already

[/hijack]

 

[Marquis]

[hijack]


that so beats the economics course im currently taking.... at least id get a good grade in Prof. Marquis' class since its a topic i have some experience with already

[/hijack]

Alright, pop quiz.

Is the demand for blowjobs elastic or inelastic?

 

[myinnerslut]

request more information on the question sir, in a 24/7 relationship or one that is not? in most cases i would say inelastic with a few exeptions due to circumstance

 

[Marquis]

request more information on the question sir, in a 24/7 relationship or one that is not? in most cases i would say inelastic with a few exeptions due to circumstance

Work with the facts in the question.

Assume other orifices are acceptable substitutes.

 

[myinnerslut]

i would have to say that it was not my place to answer that question but rather to accept my dominants answer of the question, and to allow him access to my body as he saw fit

*note, my honest response to the OP's post is found in post 14*

 

[liberatedslave]

For Sir and I I'd say elastic but also that he would expect me not to abuse that. I could refuse if I had a good reason for doing so and part of our trust is based on the fact that if I flat refuse something and safeword he'll respct it. On the other hand, he would expect my reason to be a good one.

 

[liberatedslave]

well, i do not believe in the "time out" thing, as he is always Master, i am always slave, and it does not turn off and on like a light switch. if it did, that wouldn't be our idea of a M/s relationship, but rather a M/s roleplay game, a temporary escape from real life. but anywho, that's a whole other topic...

I can understand your point of view on this and my relationship with Sir is by no means 24/7 so there are gradations to my submission and his dominance which vary according how we feel and whatever else is going on around us. That's very vague but I can't think of a better way to explain it.

For us, it works. I value very much the opportunity I have to sit down and discuss things and know that I can speak freely before my Sir. The respect is always there but he values my input on important things and wants to hear about it if I'm not happy with something. Our D/s is not a roleplay by any means. Sir has the final say. I know that if I couldn't share my knowledge with him, respectfully give my opinion and disagree with him on occasion I'd become dissatisfied and maybe even manipulative in the long term. That may be a weakness on my part but we both feel that unless I retain my own will there is nothing for him to have dominion over; to push against as it were.

It may simply be a rose by another name as no 24/7 dom/me can afford to be heedless of his/her sub but we don't feel that we're a 24/7 couple. Neither is it a playsuit we put on occasionally when we're in the mood.

 

[JMohegan]

Actually, I agree with everything you're saying here, I was just broadening the perspective of RJ's question.

Fair enough.

If I were to broaden the perspective of RJ's question, my hypotheticals would differ markedly from yours, primarily because I do not respond to provocation with force in a personal relationship. That is to say, the more angry or provoked I am, the *less* likely I would be to shove a cock down a partner's throat or wrestle her to the ground. In such a situation, mine would be a cold and quiet anger, not one that lends itself to forced sex of any kind.

Nevertheless, I absolutely agree with your comments that "consent is not physical, it's mental" and that "it isn't defined by the action, but by the state of mind." By definition therefore, consent is indistinct. And it becomes more so as one moves past the elementary level in any given relationship.

 

[JMohegan]

Does the blank check of consent apply here?

I have been thinking about this metaphor, and decided that it is actually a reasonably good way to describe the concept of consent in my flavor of D/s relationships.

The value of a blank check is limited by the funds in the bank account. Write a check for an amount in excess of the funds at hand, and it will bounce. There's a penalty for bounced checks in the form of a fee, and if you bounce too many times you lose the account.

Sounds about right to me.

Very different from the concept of carte blanche (à la Richelieu), which clearly would not apply to a relationship with me.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I would like to hear your thoughts on this...

There are many things that would be considered to be normal consented to activities within a D/s or M/s relationship. For an example, requesting or demanding a blowjob might be something that would fall normally under the relationship's consent, and most of the time would be something eagerly done.

But suppose that a bit of a spat breaks out, and in the midst of the arguement the dominant/master says....somthing to the effect of....

"I don't want to hear another word come out of that mouth, get over here right now! Get down and open your mouth."

Then they shove their cock into their mouth and tell them to suck on it.

My question is, this would be something normally considered consentual, but given the circumstances due to the argument, consent would not be present at that moment on the part of the submissive.

What are your thoughts concerning this? Does the blank check of consent apply here? The actviity is certainly within limits.

I am not stating a pro or con position, I just want to start a discussion to see what others have to say about something like this.

Personally I find the situation has some rather hot aspects to it. I think what might even be hotter is to allow the argument to continue but only as long as she has my cock in her mouth while she continues to talk. I don't know why hearing the words, "fucking bastard" being mumbled at from lips wrapped around my cock, I just do But aside from the issue of whether its hot or not, I would still like to hear what you think about how this falls within the normal parameters of consent in the relationship, but in the moment consent is not really there.

If someone belongs to you i don't think consent is ever not present.
You worry way too much. Prolly how you were raised though...to be nice to girls and stuff... but some girls dont like "nice" the way momma taught ya.

 

[Marquis]

i would have to say that it was not my place to answer that question but rather to accept my dominants answer of the question, and to allow him access to my body as he saw fit

*note, my honest response to the OP's post is found in post 14*

Keep studying babe.

 

[jnubbs]

Looking for a master Male or Female

Looking for a maser Male or Female. I have so much to offer!!

 

[myinnerslut]

Keep studying babe.

i'd rather do some hands on learning
mabye i need a little one on one tutoring... after all, economics isnt my strong suit

 

[Etoile]

In non-D/s relationships, the woman gives blowjobs when she's in the mood to do so. In my flavor of D/s, the woman gives blowjobs when I tell her to, unless she has a damn good reason for refusal.

Irritation over a petty quarrel is not something that I consider to be an adequate reason for refusal. If that were the standard, the relationship might as well be non-D/s because you'd basically be back to: whenever she's in the mood.

This is how it is for me, too. My relationship is TPE. Does that mean I can't whine, complain, be "not in the mood," or act snarky when something is asked of me? No, I can do all of those things. However, I will probably have to do the thing anyway. (Sex, striptease, washing dishes, whatever.) And if I DO get nasty in my grumbling, I will probably have to atone for that at some point.

Being a submissive or a slave doesn't take away your right to think a certain way. Except in certain cases, no human being can fully control the thoughts of another human being. You can think whatever the hell you want. It's what you do and how you act that matter. If you've given blanket consent, then you are expected to do what you've been told, or submit to whatever you've got coming.

And as JMohegan said, non-D/s relationships simply don't work that way. It's a power game, a negotiation, a "how nice do I feel like being right now" sort of thing. Am I in the mood to make my partner happy? Or am I grouchy, and I feel like being a bitch? What will the consequences be of what I decide to do?

 

[BeachGurl2]

Really nicely put. I don't have anything to add really.

OK I lied. I do.

Being a D in this kind of scenario is all about cost-benefit analysis. There are certain arguments that can be halted with a dick to the mouth and the benefit is immense. There are other arguments which can't be halted that way without deeply affecting the relationship and the dynamic, for better OR for worse, but which will invoke measures of attention and "damage control" which may not be worth the display of power position in the first place.

I love it when you bring things right down to the nitty gritty, Netz. As a sub, this is exactly the way I would hope that my Dom would approach the situation. If it's a spat over the toilet seat being left up and I plopped my ass in the bowl in the dark, I'm not going to feel like I'm being treated like trash if that were to happen. In fact, it might be a pretty good response, a way to lighten the mood, and turn things around. If it's an issue that holds any importance to me whatsoever, a little bit of trust and respect were just lost. Would it be enough for me to walk away? (Because in my mind, if I refuse, then I'm either going to be punished or asked to leave.) It would depend on a lot of things, thus the gray area that Marquis and JM talked about. What's the history involved? Have I been disrespected one too many times?

For me, when I give that blank check of consent, to use your words RJ, it's because we've determined - as Seri pointed out - that we have common limits, common expectations. We view things like trust and respect in similar ways, and I trust that I am not going to be treated disrespectly as a human being. I would never have the kind of relationships that Marquis has and he would never have the kind of relationships that I have because we view things very differently. Geoff and Cat disagree on the definition of TPE in their relationships, but it's still TPE to each of them. If JM was in this situation and was refused, he would be asking his sub to leave - however, I have a hard time imagining that he would be in that situation if it were under circumstances that his sub would refuse his order. Because that's the kind of people they are in the relationships they have.

Each relationship is defined by the dynamic between those involved. They come together because they find they have common goals, whatever those goals may be. So ultimately, if doing something like that is part of the dynamic of your relationship, then yes, it would fall under the blank check of consent. If it is not part of the dynamic, then no, it might not. For me, TPE is a blank check of consent. However, I disagree with Cat's view and agree more with Geoff's in that I am still a human being with the right to walk - But my little disclaimer on that is this: I believe that if I have chosen well to whom I submit to that degree, then the chances of anything ever happening within the relationship that would ultimately break that consent (i.e., the trust and respect required to have that level of consent) would have to be almost nil.

 

[Etoile]

Looking for a maser Male or Female. I have so much to offer!!

Down the hall, to the left.

 

[Etoile]

OSG, Cat and I all use the term 'slave' but we all use it differently. However we have PYL's who have the same understanding as 'slave' as we do.

Although I liked your post and Seri's before it, I still get nervous every time I say my D/s relationship is a TPE relationship. I think that some people on this board, when I say that, think "how can that be, she is poly and it's a long-distance relationship, how can that be TPE?" The reason I get nervous is because I don't have an answer for them. I don't know how to make our version of TPE make sense to other people. I sometimes wonder if I'm deluding myself, and it's not really TPE, but what is "really" TPE? I don't know. Maybe this is for another thread.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Although I liked your post and Seri's before it, I still get nervous every time I say my D/s relationship is a TPE relationship. I think that some people on this board, when I say that, think "how can that be, she is poly and it's a long-distance relationship, how can that be TPE?" The reason I get nervous is because I don't have an answer for them. I don't know how to make our version of TPE make sense to other people. I sometimes wonder if I'm deluding myself, and it's not really TPE, but what is "really" TPE? I don't know. Maybe this is for another thread.

Yes, you should start one. It would be a good topic.

 

[Etoile]

Yes, you should start one. It would be a good topic.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not - hasn't "what is TPE" been done to death? I figured it was my own confusion that still has me questioning the issue.

 

[Netzach]

If someone belongs to you i don't think consent is ever not present.
You worry way too much. Prolly how you were raised though...to be nice to girls and stuff... but some girls dont like "nice" the way momma taught ya.

I can do anything in regard to H.

There are a million things I choose not to do, because they're a really crappy idea when you get down to it.

And there are a million more he'd rather I didn't but they're a good idea and he can deal, so I do.