The blank check of consent

[Etoile]

actually, my point really is that my Master CAN abuse me, at times does abuse me, that abuse DOES have a place in our relationship and therefore in the D/s M/s lifestyle. i think in the other thread i define what abuse is to me, and under that definition, abuse is a part of my relationship.

I think this is just you and I defining abuse differently. I just posted a big long ramble in the other thread that explains my definition of abuse. So I guess what I meant is that "I do not see anything that happens in osg's relationship as abusive, because she has consented to all of it." I don't view abuse as any particular physical act, but rather something the victim has not agreed to. In the other thread, you said abuse is the intent to cause harm. So we're just approaching it from different perspectives because we have different definitions of abuse.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I think this is just you and I defining abuse differently. I just posted a big long ramble in the other thread that explains my definition of abuse. So I guess what I meant is that "I do not see anything that happens in osg's relationship as abusive, because she has consented to all of it." I don't view abuse as any particular physical act, but rather something the victim has not agreed to.

i hear ya loud and clear. many define abuse by consent, and i can understand that perspective, we just define it a bit more literally/stereotypically perhaps: "to use so as to harm or injure," with the caveat of intent.

 

[h_i_s]

ok first of all i was not speaking of anyone's relationship in particular. .......................... i'm not saying what is right or wrong in someone else's relationship, i would never do that.

i just read your post that was directed at another in particular in which you went on to determine and tell them exactly which rights their dominant has or does not have, and then go on to tell that person exactly what it was that they consented to allow that dominant to do ...

i'm certain that if you read over your previous post which i directed my comments at, you'll realize that you did speak of another's and did attempt to say what is right and what is wrong. Unless you accidentally hit the quote button under their post. Shit happens & crazier things have happended on these boards. No biggy. Not the end of the world...

Although it would suck if some newb happened across the post and walked away from it with the same interpretation, and was as a result more than a bit misinformed... and then returned here only to leave the rest of us with the burden of having to reprogram their crazy ideas and knock the sense back into them, and then having to spend months of evenings in a yahoo messenger private chat window mentoring them back to some sane resemblance of a 'better than doormat quality' perspective slave material that some respectable nonabusive domly dom can mold into something at least half worthwhile when we have finished...

But.

i'm sure you'd agree that, you, like the rest of us, can have no idea of exactly what was agreed to between those in the relationship, and just do not know the details of exactly what that PYL took as their right over that pyl.

So, just like you, i am only trying to exercise a little bit of what is my own method of understanding. .. and having fun while doing so...

 

[lil_slave_rose]

i just read your post that was directed at another in particular in which you went on to determine and tell them exactly which rights their dominant has or does not have, and then go on to tell that person exactly what it was that they consented to allow that dominant to do ...

i'm certain that if you read over your previous post which i directed my comments at, you'll realize that you did speak of another's and did attempt to say what is right and what is wrong. Unless you accidentally hit the quote button under their post. Shit happens & crazier things have happended on these boards. No biggy. Not the end of the world...

Although it would suck if some newb happened across the post and walked away from it with the same interpretation, and was as a result more than a bit misinformed... and then returned here only to leave the rest of us with the burden of having to reprogram their crazy ideas and knock the sense back into them, and then having to spend months of evenings in a yahoo messenger private chat window mentoring them back to some sane resemblance of a 'better than doormat quality' perspective slave material that some respectable nonabusive domly dom can mold into something at least half worthwhile when we have finished...

But.

i'm sure you'd agree that, you, like the rest of us, can have no idea of exactly what was agreed to between those in the relationship, and just do not know the details of exactly what that PYL took as their right over that pyl.

So, just like you, i am only trying to exercise a little bit of what is my own method of understanding. .. and having fun while doing so...

ok first of all i would never tell someone else what is right for them..you apparently read my post the wrong way. i know which post you are speaking of and i put it in there plainly that is MY OPINION and that i KNOW they and a few others would disagree with me. i always also assume that everyone knows when i'm posting, i'm giving MY OPINION and not anyone else's, it's common sense and what everyone on this board does. i didn't figure that on every single post i have to put IMO or IMHO..obviously it's my opinion, i'm the one posting it, obviously it doesn't fit everyone, we are all different, you are reading what i say the wrong way, i would never tell someone how they should live their lives anyone who knows me, knows this. if a newb comes onto the board and reads my posts and agrees with them, well then it's as simple as we share the same opinions. why are my opinions any different than anyone else's? sorry you took my post to the other person the way you did, it wasn't how it was intended and was why it was plainly stated THIS IS MY OPINION AND I KNOW YOU AND A FEW OTHERS WILL DISAGREE.....

 

[h_i_s]

you apparently read my post the wrong way....

No. i didn't. And, you don't have to yell.
Sharing thoughts with those who get this angry or annoyed so easily, suddenly makes a debate not much fun for me... i'll simply agree to disagree with you at this point.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

No. i didn't. And, you don't have to yell.
Sharing thoughts with those who get this angry or annoyed so easily, suddenly makes a debate not much fun for me... i'll simply agree to disagree with you at this point.

i am not angry. nor am i annoyed. but you basically told me something i did that i did NOT do. i was not yelling, i'm posting on a discussion board, there is no way for me to yell. i was pointing out that i put in the post that it was MY opinion and not anyone else's. sorry you continue to read my posts the wrong way.....

 

[RJMasters]

I'm not saying this to start the "nit-picking" conversation as we've already all done that in another recent thread, but I just wanted to share this out loud.

If nothing was surrendered, there would be nothing to take either, would there?

There's your exchange. I don't think it's quite as complicated as a lot of people try to make it out to be.

The "total power" part for me simply means that there are no longer limits or conditions. The exchange part simply means that I offered it, she accepted it, and that is the concept our relationship from that point on is built on.

serijules,

Perhaps I am missing your point as I don't think I disagreed with anything you have posted so far on this subject and I am pretty sure that I agree 100% to what you posted here....so not sure why or how these comments were directed at me. Perhaps you could be a little more clear as to why you directed them at me so I can understand what you meant.

 

[serijules]

serijules,

Perhaps I am missing your point as I don't think I disagreed with anything you have posted so far on this subject and I am pretty sure that I agree 100% to what you posted here....so not sure why or how these comments were directed at me. Perhaps you could be a little more clear as to why you directed them at me so I can understand what you meant.

I just quoted you because you said the words that prompted me to think further on the topic of defining TPE (more specifically: " that if you have surrendered all power, then how can it be exchanged?"). It wasn't really directed at you, I quoted to show what I was talking about. Sorry if I singled you out for no reason, just giving you credit for a good thought, even if it's a thought that I don't necessarily share.

I really enjoy your posts and they often make me think

 

[RJMasters]

I just quoted you because you said the words that prompted me to think further on the topic of defining TPE (more specifically: " that if you have surrendered all power, then how can it be exchanged?"). It wasn't really directed at you, I quoted to show what I was talking about. Sorry if I singled you out for no reason, just giving you credit for a good thought, even if it's a thought that I don't necessarily share.

I really enjoy your posts and they often make me think

Oh no worries serijules, thank you for clearing that up. It was that I didn't understand why you had directed them at me.

You see in times past I have tried to start threads that disicussed, "what is power?" or "what is meant by exchange?". Many of those thread sort of went sideways and turned into some really crazy discussions.

What I took away from it all was that people have a way of defining what to them is power and they also like to define for themselves how it is given away and they are very protective about how that is viewed to some degree because in essense it is for them describing their flavor of genuine submission.

When ever such conversations of PE or TPE take place, I remember back to those earlier discussions and I then try to understand from the POV of the person sharing. Because what I might consider ar PE or TPE or even what P is or even what E is may be so different than the person particpating in the discussion.

I do hear or see often that slaves speak about PE and TPE differently than what submissives, or bottoms would. I sort of picked up on the fact that for many slaves there was a defining moment where consent and surrendure of power and control took place, so those things often are not even part of the process in a manner of speaking as to them they have reached that point and have moved on.....now the exchanging is like living up to the what has been agreed to because what has been agreed to has already been settled.

What I think is often forgotten in these discussions is that for some things have not been completely settled or agreed to and it causes misunderstandings. You take something from a slaves perspective and try to apply it at the submissve or bottom level and your likely to generate a bunch of 's

Consequently when you flip it around you can get the very same thing going the other way. And in the end, what works for one person doesn't work for another and so I tend see that the definition and meaning of TPE PE P E are often shifting depending on the person's POV who is doing the talking. Because of this I try harder to listen careful and undersand what they are saying from their pov.

 

[shy slave]

RJ ~ whatever do you mean with the words

...Many of those thread sort of went sideways and turned into some really crazy discussions.

Crazy discussions on Lit?

When?, That never happens, does it






Good thread though

 

[RJMasters]

RJ ~ whatever do you mean with the words

Crazy discussions on Lit?

When?, That never happens, does it



Good thread though

Click me

 

[shy slave]

Click me

LOL

Very Funny RJ

 

[Marquis]

Sometimes it can sting like hell and tear your world apart to see him standing, immobile, refusing to utter even the simplest command.

Doing some catch-up reading on this thread and this line stuck out at me.

I agree totally. This is the nuke.

As long as you're punishing and ordering and fucking, you are (hopefully) still within the BDSM realm. You can correct a lot of behavior in this realm, but I always try to keep in mind that anything you're doing in here is basically positive reinforcement. Punishments can be good reminders of expected behavior, but if the desire to submit to those expectations isn't there in the first place, a spanking will have nothing to reinforce and do nothing to inspire it.

The truth is withdrawal is the only REAL card you've got in your hand as a dom, the way I see it.

If you've laid your game down right, your sub should fear withdrawal like she fears death. If she has no fear of your withdrawal, it's pretty much time to give up, because you're trying to play poker with no chips on the table.

However, it's important to remember that withdrawal is not a part of the BDSM game. If you use withdrawal as a punishment, you're abusing that power and it will backfire on you.

For example, my sub doesn't want to leave caps open constantly (although you'd swear she did). But she has a bad habit of leaving everything from toothpaste to pickle jars insufficiently tightened. This is the perfect time for a quick spanking. For an issue like this, you want to use positive reinforcement anyway, although it can certainly take on the appearance of strict discipline.

In other words, if you're going to act like a particular incident, issue or behavior is a dealbreaker, it better really be a dealbreaker and you should be prepared to lower that person's importance in your life.

 

[Marquis]

So are you saying that by me startig this thread and posing these sceneros for discussion, that I have a vanilla or mainstream mindset where power excahnge is concerned? Becareful that's a trick question.

Still going through and found another line that caught my eye.

I'll answer this question, if I may. Yes, RJ, in my opinion you have a very vanilla or mainstream mindset where power exchange is concerned.

Obviously, you have an interest and a curiosity for more. I would compare you to perhaps a really religious and uptight homosexual with a major guilt complex. Instead of just being gay (double entendre intended), you're constantly justifying your homosexuality to yourself.

I think this is a phase you will move out of if you allow yourself to.

 

[RJMasters]

Still going through and found another line that caught my eye.

I'll answer this question, if I may. Yes, RJ, in my opinion you have a very vanilla or mainstream mindset where power exchange is concerned.

Obviously, you have an interest and a curiosity for more. I would compare you to perhaps a really religious and uptight homosexual with a major guilt complex. Instead of just being gay (double entendre intended), you're constantly justifying your homosexuality to yourself.

I think this is a phase you will move out of if you allow yourself to.

One can only hope eh?

I should probably add...a lot has been changing for about 6-8 months now. Guess it helps to stop trying to put a square block into a round hole.

Instead of trying to figure out how the wheels on the bus go round and round, just enjoying the ride has been great. Granted the bus might break down, but hell that's life, getting off at every stop to check the oil level and tire pressure doesn't amount to much in the over all scheme of things.

Ask a trick question and get a trick answer...and a good one at that. Thanks.

 

[Marquis]

That's pretty much the same thing I said. Just that nobody is a dick-sucking robot, basically. I was surprised that I heard (or thought I heard) someone say "if she's not a dick-sucking robot, the relationship won't last long." Apparently I was a bit off in my interpretation, and that wasn't what was said, but it is what I was responding to.

I know a girl who once referred to herself as a walking blowjob machine. Funnily enough, the relationship in which she referenced taking this role didn't last long.

 

[Marquis]

One can only hope eh?

It's totally up to you bro.

 

[JMohegan]

Doing some catch-up reading on this thread and this line stuck out at me.

I agree totally. This is the nuke.

As long as you're punishing and ordering and fucking, you are (hopefully) still within the BDSM realm. You can correct a lot of behavior in this realm, but I always try to keep in mind that anything you're doing in here is basically positive reinforcement. Punishments can be good reminders of expected behavior, but if the desire to submit to those expectations isn't there in the first place, a spanking will have nothing to reinforce and do nothing to inspire it.

The truth is withdrawal is the only REAL card you've got in your hand as a dom, the way I see it.

If you've laid your game down right, your sub should fear withdrawal like she fears death. If she has no fear of your withdrawal, it's pretty much time to give up, because you're trying to play poker with no chips on the table.

However, it's important to remember that withdrawal is not a part of the BDSM game. If you use withdrawal as a punishment, you're abusing that power and it will backfire on you.

For example, my sub doesn't want to leave caps open constantly (although you'd swear she did). But she has a bad habit of leaving everything from toothpaste to pickle jars insufficiently tightened. This is the perfect time for a quick spanking. For an issue like this, you want to use positive reinforcement anyway, although it can certainly take on the appearance of strict discipline.

In other words, if you're going to act like a particular incident, issue or behavior is a dealbreaker, it better really be a dealbreaker and you should be prepared to lower that person's importance in your life.

Agreed on all points.

As I said earlier, for me one characteristic of a great relationship is one in which I am rarely angry, and almost never to that point. Because if I'm *that* angry, it really does mean I'm on the brink of pulling back from the relationship itself.

 

[JMohegan]

major guilt complex

Just a general comment, not aimed at any individuals here.

From my own personal experience many years ago, I can tell you that guilt and Dominance are not a helpful or even healthy combination. If you (general "you") do feel guilty about whatever it is that you want or need, my advice is to find a way to get that guilt under control as a top personal priority.

Guilt throws your game off and generates moments in which you are tentative, insecure, indecisive, unpredictable, and a host of other things that are not only contradictory to the D/s dynamic itself, but generally detrimental to the effective functioning of any relationship of any flavor.

You've got to find a way to get past the guilt, or you'll find yourself derailing constantly.

 

[Netzach]

Agreed on all points.

As I said earlier, for me one characteristic of a great relationship is one in which I am rarely angry, and almost never to that point. Because if I'm *that* angry, it really does mean I'm on the brink of pulling back from the relationship itself.

Hm.

Kind of a version of "why I don't do punishments" although it's astute of Marquis to point out that they *are* carrots. I may have to rethink my map a little bit, but I still am fundamentally uncomfortable for rewarding bad behaviors with that much attention.

If I'm at that point, you're right, there's a really big problem, with more than the D/s, most likely. The deal *is* broke.

 

[Netzach]

Just a general comment, not aimed at any individuals here.

From my own personal experience many years ago, I can tell you that guilt and Dominance are not a helpful or even healthy combination. If you (general "you") do feel guilty about whatever it is that you want or need, my advice is to find a way to get that guilt under control as a top personal priority.

Guilt throws your game off and generates moments in which you are tentative, insecure, indecisive, unpredictable, and a host of other things that are not only contradictory to the D/s dynamic itself, but generally detrimental to the effective functioning of any relationship of any flavor.

You've got to find a way to get past the guilt, or you'll find yourself derailing constantly.

I take the more zen road. We're doing some shit that's very verboten and we're raised a certain way, of course you're going to have guilt. *shrug* I just kind of feel it till I don't.

 

[JMohegan]

I just kind of feel it till I don't.

I'm not the best at abstract reasoning, but that sure sounds like "getting past it" to me.

 

[Netzach]

I'm not the best at abstract reasoning, but that sure sounds like "getting past it" to me.

Ok, didn't mean to nitpick. It's my specialty though.

 

[JMohegan]

Hm.

Kind of a version of "why I don't do punishments" although it's astute of Marquis to point out that they *are* carrots. I may have to rethink my map a little bit, but I still am fundamentally uncomfortable for rewarding bad behaviors with that much attention.

If I'm at that point, you're right, there's a really big problem, with more than the D/s, most likely. The deal *is* broke.

To tell you the truth, behavioral correction isn't really my thing and I don't usually "do punishments" either.

But I agree with what he wrote as a general principle, and the key as I see it is "the desire to submit to those expectations" as the critical foundation for everything that's going on.

 

[JMohegan]

Ok, didn't mean to nitpick. It's my specialty though.

Nitpick anytime you want, Netzach. Seriously.

The abstract really is a relative weakness of mine, and my comment was a check for mutual understanding. Not anything even remotely resembling FU.