The competition for “most extreme violence” heats up

[PastMaster]

My catharsis came from hitting someone who doesn't have tits and can hit back.

I just re read this post and this occured to me.
So we, the authors are being castigated for writing violence - and here you are actually performing real violence in the real world against a real person - and nobody said dick.
(I'm making no judgements personally on the validity of your actions - just on the reaction of those here screaming that 'There is NO place for this type of filth on Lit at all. NO exceptions, NO excuses.')
@jaF0 where is your outrage about violence now?

 

[NoTalentHack]

I agree it's not most of your readers. But even when it's only ~10% of commenters talking like that, that still feels like way too many. If I was in a social group where 10% of people talked like that, I'd be looking for a different group.

The thing is, from what I've seen, that 10% shows up all over the site. It's just that most writers don't do anything in their stories to make them hone in. For example, in "A Very Long Engagement" (I/T), I got the following comment:

Anal stuff ruined it. Why do likable female characters have to end up with closeted betas? So pathetic.

In "Cultural Exchanges" and "Meat Market" (both Romance), I got some really racist comments that I've since deleted because the couples in each were mixed race. Same thing with "Forever Bound" (BDSM), and for the same reason. "The Hedonic Treadmill" (Humor) got the same kind of heated comments that you see in LW for the same reasons LW stories get dinged: there's a contingent on the site that just does not like swinging/swapping. And these were all largely anonymous comments, so unless someone was following me and then specifically logging out to post them, it's a site problem, not an LW problem.

LW gets the most comments, hands down. But it's also one of the few places on the site where people go in not knowing exactly what to expect from each story; Humor is like that, Fetish can be, a few others, but LW is the one that is the wild west in terms of content. And because it gets the most comments, then it also means they get the most problematic comments. Add on to that that the readers are going to see things they don't want to see and want to discourage content that they don't like, the ratings there are also low.

I did a whole writeup of how LW got to be how it is today at https://forum.literotica.com/thread...story-to-prove-me-right.1574827/post-96483541 but I'll say this: at worst, it's only slightly more misanthropic/misogynistic/racist than the rest of the site, and for that matter, the rest of the internet. And these endless threads where we handwring about "what's wrong with the people there" only fan the flames.

Let people have their silly revenge dramas; laurel does a good job of preventing the most egregious stuff from getting through. Actual violence against women is extremely rare in the stories; the spouse's ruination is usually financial or legal, not physical. If you're concerned with misogyny, especially violence against women, you should be targeting NC/R; the "it's okay as long as the victim enjoys what happens to them" is far more dangerous in terms of encouraging incels, redpillers, MGTOWers, and their ilk.

ETA: I'm not saying NC/R should be banned, either. I think fiction should be a safe place to explore and interrogate the way that we feel about things, including darker urges and emotions. But if we're talking about "possible dangers to society in stories?" Yeah, LW isn't even the most dangerous place on the site. Maybe not even second or third. Looking at you, 95% of Interracial content.

 

[lovecraft68]

Putting this simply, when did hate and violence become a sexual kink?

Because that's what it is in the LW section.

Incest and N/C are things no one should condone in real life, but they are-in the realm of fantasy-sexual kinks/fetishes.

But to have a readership getting off to murder and torture in an erotic category, that means that's what they're being aroused by.

The fact all this happens not to rapists or murderers or child molesters, mobsters, or all around scum that deserve it, but for the 'crime' of cheating makes it even worse.

I have as low of an opinion of people who cheat in REAL LIFE as anyone, but its not something someone should be killed over.

This new fetish appeals to incels and 'men' who hate any woman who wasn't a virgin when she married and acts like a 1950's housewife. The type with real hate and venom seething in them are the ones who get off to this.

That's what the authors want as a base, and that's what this site is happy to cater to here.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The thing is, from what I've seen, that 10% shows up all over the site. It's just that most writers don't do anything in their stories to make them hone in.

I agree that these types do show up all over, but they're particularly prominent in LW, and I'm not convinced that it's just about story content making them more visible.

I've posted a couple of stories with mixed-race couples, in particular Anjali's Red Scarf (in Lesbian) and Riddle of the Copper Coin (SFF). The latter involves queer romance between a white Australian atheist and an Iraqi-Australian Muslim. I don't think either of those drew a single racist comment.

"The Floggings Will Continue" (E/V) involves a group scene that ends up in a polyamorous relationship; nobody seems to have had an issue with that.

"Loss Function" (which I posted in Romance) is about a lesbian romance where one of the women is in a lavender marriage with a gay man. I got one ambiguous "this isn't romance" comment which I'd guess was about the lesbian aspect (or might've been about the downer ending?) but no firebreathing "smite anybody who profanes the marriage vows" stuff.

That's not to say it can't happen. Another author who I edit for has been posting a series in Lesbian where the Latina protag's love interest is a Black professor. That one has drawn a few hostile comments, but not about the mixed-race relationship per se - the professor is teaching a course about racism in the USA, and some readers objected to the parts of that course that are mentioned in the story.

Let people have their silly revenge dramas;

They're silly, sure, but silly doesn't imply harmless.

laurel does a good job of preventing the most egregious stuff from getting through. Actual violence against women is extremely rare in the stories; the spouse's ruination is usually financial or legal, not physical.

I took a look at the ten stories currently on the LW "new" list. At least on a quick skim, eight of them weren't violent. One has a lot of violence but not as revenge for cheating (protagonist is an FBI agent fighting cartels).

But then there's that 10%:

https://www.literotica.com/s/was-it-worth-it-5

Protagonist catches his wife in bed with another guy. He shoots the guy ("I could have shot him in the face, but I never liked closed casket funerals. I figured his family might feel the same.") Then after dragging his wife around by the hair while she begs for her life, he shoots her in the face. And then he dictates his story into the recorder before blowing his own brains out.

That's not a large sample - if I had more time I'd look through more to see whether maybe - and that "10%" comes with some large error bars when it's based on just ten stories, but it's still not nothing. Not "usual", no,, but not nearly rare enough.

If you're concerned with misogyny, especially violence against women, you should be targeting NC/R; the "it's okay as long as the victim enjoys what happens to them" is far more dangerous in terms of encouraging incels, redpillers, MGTOWers, and their ilk.

ETA: I'm not saying NC/R should be banned, either. I think fiction should be a safe place to explore and interrogate the way that we feel about things, including darker urges and emotions. But if we're talking about "possible dangers to society in stories?" Yeah, LW isn't even the most dangerous place on the site. Maybe not even second or third. Looking at you, 95% of Interracial content.

I largely agree with LC on NC/R - there's a difference between fantasy-NC where everybody involved understands that this stuff is evil IRL, and the kind of cheer-squad behaviour one sees in LW where that 10% of commenters gives the impression they'd love to see cheating spouses getting blown away IRL. It's the cheer-squad in particular that worries me, because at least in the context of rape, one of the things that's most influential on men's propensity to violent acts against women is their perception of whether other men approve of it.

FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly that the "victim enjoys what happens to them" rule is ill-conceived; from the history of the site I don't think it was intended to encourage that myth, but it's ended up doing so.

Not a big fan of IR either.

 

[PastMaster]

Putting this simply, when did hate and violence become a sexual kink?

Because that's what it is in the LW section.

Incest and N/C are things no one should condone in real life, but they are-in the realm of fantasy-sexual kinks/fetishes.

But to have a readership getting off to murder and torture in an erotic category, that means that's what they're being aroused by.

The fact all this happens not to rapists or murderers or child molesters, mobsters, or all around scum that deserve it, but for the 'crime' of cheating makes it even worse.

I have as low of an opinion of people who cheat in REAL LIFE as anyone, but its not something someone should be killed over.

This new fetish appeals to incels and 'men' who hate any woman who wasn't a virgin when she married and acts like a 1950's housewife. The type with real hate and venom seething in them are the ones who get off to this.

That's what the authors want as a base, and that's what this site is happy to cater to here.

since you chose to post in both threads - ill answer in both too

That's simply not the case.

Violence has been a sexual kink for some time - you only have to read some of the noncon and bdsm stories to see that.

But you are making the simple assumption that just because this is primarily an erotic fiction site - that everything posted here is meant to be erotic.
There are plenty of stories on here with little or no sex in them. and as a previous poster on this thread noted the LW section is pretty much of a free for all regarding what you might get, pretty much every category is represented in there - so why should Non-Erotic be assumed to be left out?
My story and others like it is a plain old revenge story. There was and is no attempt to sexualize the killing. It was aimed at a certain readership that I knew would like it - and I fully expected the blowback i would get from the other side of the spectrum of the LW readers.

What i found remarkable though was the reaction from other writers - some of whom had written far more violent stories. Like they seem to feel that I was either inciting or performing the actual acts themselves.

And to cap it all an arsey comment from you - the hypocrite who admits to actually assaulting someone in real life - when all I did was write a story.

Yes - what people write can be telling - but what people DO is even more so - I believe that your actions far outstrip my writing .

 

[PastMaster]

They're silly, sure, but silly doesn't imply harmless.

You are straying here into an argument that has been going on for years in mainstream media and entertainment.
All entertainment has become more violent beit movies video games books, its what sells and so it's promoted.
Unless you are trying to imply that simply because of the forum we are posting in, it has an extra level of significance.

I'm not arguing that the violence depicted in these stories is right and that the actions of the MC are not reprehensible - but it's FICTION. Lets extrapolate. Lets leave NonCON out for a moment - because again we all know that is wrong, and the 'as long as she enjoys it' rule is actually quite worrying. Let's take another kink which it appears is perfectly acceptable here. Incest.

If your argument is that merely by writing a story where violence is perpetrated on someone as revenge for cheating, is it not reasonable to say that if someone gets their rocks off to an incest story - they are more likely to go and have an incestuous relationship? After all it seems that everyone is doing it and its perfectly okay - no kink shaming here.
Aside from the damage that would do within families think about the genetic aberrations that could be produced.

There are lots of theme and actions in stories on this site that you would not want to see replicated in the real world. (and some that you would - no doubt)
The point of fiction is that its an escape from the real world and should be seen as such. And if you conclude as LC68 did that what you write tells people about you, then perhaps authors such as Thomas Harris, Lars Keppler, and James Patterson, and Directors such as Quentin Tarantino should be under surveillance 24/7 in case the murderous urges that they so obviously have, take hold.

 

[lovecraft68]

You are straying here into an argument that has been going on for years in mainstream media and entertainment.
All entertainment has become more violent beit movies video games books, its what sells and so it's promoted.
Unless you are trying to imply that simply because of the forum we are posting in, it has an extra level of significance.

I'm not arguing that the violence depicted in these stories is right and that the actions of the MC are not reprehensible - but it's FICTION. Lets extrapolate. Lets leave NonCON out for a moment - because again we all know that is wrong, and the 'as long as she enjoys it' rule is actually quite worrying. Let's take another kink which it appears is perfectly acceptable here. Incest.

If your argument is that merely by writing a story where violence is perpetrated on someone as revenge for cheating, is it not reasonable to say that if someone gets their rocks off to an incest story - they are more likely to go and have an incestuous relationship? After all it seems that everyone is doing it and its perfectly okay - no kink shaming here.
Aside from the damage that would do within families think about the genetic aberrations that could be produced.

There are lots of theme and actions in stories on this site that you would not want to see replicated in the real world. (and some that you would - no doubt)
The point of fiction is that its an escape from the real world and should be seen as such. And if you conclude as LC68 did that what you write tells people about you, then perhaps authors such as Thomas Harris, Lars Keppler, and James Patterson, and Directors such as Quentin Tarantino should be under surveillance 24/7 in case the murderous urges that they so obviously have, take hold.

I see your side of the argument. Falls under author/creator responsibility as in is it Ozzy's fault some kid who committed suicide listened to his records? The people who think the Matrix was the reason for Columbine, D&D causes mental illness....etc....

Thomas Harris didn't set out to create cannibals in Silence of the Lambs etc...

So I get that, and its why I mentioned I'd never censor what people choose to write. My issue is I think it does take on a different meaning when something is posted in an erotic category and there are people getting sexual gratification from the violence. Again, incest, rape there are crimes in real life, but big time fantasies and in the erotic sense, these are sexual acts, but in fantasy they remove the "we shouldn't" and if you want to be roasted in taboo make it non con. Oddly enough if you browse Non con comments you see people in that category accusing authors of going to far and it was rape...odd honor among thieves type of mentality, but in both cases, they are policing their kink and not wanting to be reminded of the reality.

But to take a non sexual act of violence and build it around something that whips these dogs into a frenzy(cheating) and give them hard ons over it does fall under encouraging a group of already deranged lunatics.

Only two types of people get hard ons over violence and torture, sadists and serial killers. I can't control-nor can you or anyone else-what someone takes from our stories, and I think we should write what we want, but there are limits and also ways to aim it at the right crowd. The Hitman story in non erotic is fine, its a different crowd. In LW they think a woman being murdered is jack off material.

I have a novel that's original version was here in a Halloween contest. Its premise is a female serial killer targets cheating men. Lot of violence and gore, but it was in the horror section and meant to appall people not to arouse them. And during it I even mention that cheating isn't a reason to kill someone but this was a deranged killer with a personality disorder, she was not the hero of the story(although in horror maybe she was)

Now if I took that story and dropped it in LW, it would be annihilated because it was a woman killing cheating men. But somehow the reverse is a damn turn on.

All I-and I think others-are saying is there's some people that you don't need to deliberately fire up and any crowd that thinks violence against any specific group be it a gender or a race or sexual identity are a walking hate crime in the making and do we need to feed that?

I ask that question of the site as much as you, because torture for thrills should not be allowed in an erotic category. But...oh, no, those stories where someone said a 16 year old thought about sex? Those have to go.

 

[PastMaster]

I see your side of the argument. Falls under author/creator responsibility as in is it Ozzy's fault some kid who committed suicide listened to his records? The people who think the Matrix was the reason for Columbine, D&D causes mental illness....etc....

Thomas Harris didn't set out to create cannibals in Silence of the Lambs etc...

So I get that, and its why I mentioned I'd never censor what people choose to write. My issue is I think it does take on a different meaning when something is posted in an erotic category and there are people getting sexual gratification from the violence. Again, incest, rape there are crimes in real life, but big time fantasies and in the erotic sense, these are sexual acts, but in fantasy they remove the "we shouldn't" and if you want to be roasted in taboo make it non con. Oddly enough if you browse Non con comments you see people in that category accusing authors of going to far and it was rape...odd honor among thieves type of mentality, but in both cases, they are policing their kink and not wanting to be reminded of the reality.

But to take a non sexual act of violence and build it around something that whips these dogs into a frenzy(cheating) and give them hard ons over it does fall under encouraging a group of already deranged lunatics.

Only two types of people get hard ons over violence and torture, sadists and serial killers. I can't control-nor can you or anyone else-what someone takes from our stories, and I think we should write what we want, but there are limits and also ways to aim it at the right crowd. The Hitman story in non erotic is fine, its a different crowd. In LW they think a woman being murdered is jack off material.

I have a novel that's original version was here in a Halloween contest. Its premise is a female serial killer targets cheating men. Lot of violence and gore, but it was in the horror section and meant to appall people not to arouse them. And during it I even mention that cheating isn't a reason to kill someone but this was a deranged killer with a personality disorder, she was not the hero of the story(although in horror maybe she was)

Now if I took that story and dropped it in LW, it would be annihilated because it was a woman killing cheating men. But somehow the reverse is a damn turn on.

All I-and I think others-are saying is there's some people that you don't need to deliberately fire up and any crowd that thinks violence against any specific group be it a gender or a race or sexual identity are a walking hate crime in the making and do we need to feed that?

I ask that question of the site as much as you, because torture for thrills should not be allowed in an erotic category. But...oh, no, those stories where someone said a 16 year old thought about sex? Those have to go.

I think the crux of the argument then becomes is LW an erotic category, and is the expectation that someone is reading it for sexual thrills or not.

I know the first argument will be - this is litEROTICA its in the site name, but again there are plenty of non erotic stories here - here is even a category for it. So there is at least some expectation that some of the stories here are Non erotic.

LW is a category unlike any other - in that just about every other category is contained within - there are dozens of NONCON, BDSM,CUCK, INCEST... you name it, its in there. so is it unreasonable to expect that non erotic stories may also be represented there.

I accept that there are a group of people that you dont want to deliberately fire up. but those people, if they are reading the LW section are reading other sections here. like NONCON, if they are women haters, then that will be like candy to them and yet you seem fine with that.

My stories are never written to incite anyone to do any harm to anyone. Believe it or not, the whole reason for that story was that I was trying to come up with a new way for a man to find out about his cheating wife. all the other stuff seemed to have been done before. I wont say it's never been used before, but I've never seen it.
My expectation was that the story would leave people feeling one of two ways, either horrified that someone would do something so extreme, or with a sense that justice had been done. It never occurred to me that there might be someone who might actually get sexual pleasure from it. Thats just so far away from my thinking it never even registered. (and yes erotic site i get it but see above - non erotic stories etc.)
My entire thinking was - readers - LW gets more readers than any other category and when all's said and done isnt that why we post here?

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I think the crux of the argument then becomes is LW an erotic category, and is the expectation that someone is reading it for sexual thrills or not.

Let's be honest here. This entire thread is hilarious.

Just for fun, I just went through all the (currently) 107 comments under your story, and I couldn't find even a single one stating how "hot", "arousing", or anything other sexual that story turned out to be for the commenter. The only people I would classify as toxic or problematic in that comment section are the dozens of people screaming about "small dick energy" and calling everyone incels.

I mean, there are truly disgusting and atrocious stories on this site you could all complain about!

I read a story where a helpless paraplegic man was regularly raped by his wife's lover, to the point he needed reconstructive surgery, but apparently that's fine with the people in this threat. I read a story about a woman tying up her sleeping husband and then raping him with a 12'' rubberdick until he bled, for no other reason than to please her bull, but that's just "fantasy" and I shouldn't shame anyone. A few months ago I even read a story about a mother getting sexual gratification out of smothering her son (not in the good way), ultimately placing him in a bathtub and holding him under water until he stopped moving, effectively murdering the kid, but I guess I'm just bad at that whole "suspension of disbelieve" thing.

But GOD FORBID you write a story about the actually possible real life consequences of cheating, exploring the dark depths of the human mind. Because, if the victim is female, suddenly all hell breaks loose, you're a disgusting proponent of violence against women, and THIS garbage has no place on this site!

Even IF that WERE the case... let's take a closer look at that.

Revenge fantasies are a universal response in all human cultures, and it's nothing more than our brains trying to level out the pain we experienced and counteract the negative imprint it leaves behind. The more severe the pain and/or humiliation you experienced, the more drastic will the fantasies your brain comes up with turn out. That's normal. That's real life. And, whether you like it or not, that's healthy!
Now, take a look at all the people in the comments and in this thread. What do you think it says about you all, who are so eager to not only dismiss these normal responses, but even engage in mockery and ridicule about it? Doesn't exactly paint anyone in a great picture. If you can't understand why crimes of passion are a thing, that just means that you were never sufficiently invested in someone other than yourself.

Protip:
You want to see ACTUAL deranged sadists and psychopaths? Go to YouTube, search for homemade mousetraps, and read the comments underneath the videos that present you with all the torture devices. Then compare those comments with the ones underneath postmaster's story. I think the difference will be very clear, very quickly.

 

[jaF0]

I don't come here for reality. I see that on the news. I come here for fantasy, erotica, fun, enjoyment and titillation.

I do not find violence entertaining in any way, shape or form. That's a big reason why I stopped watching TV and movies. Every story, even comedies try to insert violence in one way or another, even the classics like The Road Runner cartoons. OK, sure, they do it in a humorous and unlikely way.


But I damned sure don't want to read about a couple fighting over what they do in stories here.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

But I damned sure don't want to read about a couple fighting over what they do in stories here.

That's your perogative and I 100% respect and support your opinion.

That being said, however, I personally abhor Cuckold stories. Being a straight male, I also don't get any enjoyment out of stories that exclusively deal with gay couples. And yet, I will not run around the forum and tell other people what they can or can not enjoy. Because, just like revenge fantasies, they are legitimate content that is sought after by a large proportion of this site's readership.

Short of creating my own site that I can then dictate what is allowed to be posted to, in order to cater to my personal preferences, there's not much I can do and will simply have to accept that there are people on this public gathering spot with different kinks and needs than my own.

*EDIT*
Just to say this preemptively: No, that doesn't mean that I would support calls for the dismissal of the 18+ rule. That rule is based on widely recognized laws, so that is a completely different topic than personal preferences and kinks.

 

[jaF0]

There are also widely recognized laws against domestic violence and spousal abuse, but somehow people here seem to be OK with it, even consider it entertainment or an expected outcome.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

There are also widely recognized laws against domestic violence and spousal abuse, but somehow people here seem to be OK with it, even consider it entertainment or an expected outcome.

Sorry, should have clarified that:
There are laws against publishing and/or hosting literature containing themes of pedophilia.
There are NO laws against publishing and/or hosting literature containing themes of domestic violence and spousal abuse.

Again:
Maybe, if that really were what you're concerned about, you should start complaining about all the stories of domestic violence and spousal abuse directed at cuckolds as well. People seem to consider those just as entertaining, but I guess that somehow doesn't count...

 

[PastMaster]

There are also widely recognized laws against domestic violence and spousal abuse, but somehow people here seem to be OK with it, even consider it entertainment or an expected outcome.

There are widely recognised laws against Incest and Non consensual sex, but to quote your own words...

but somehow people here seem to be OK with it, even consider it entertainment.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Let's be honest here. This entire thread is hilarious.

Just for fun, I just went through all the (currently) 107 comments under your story, and I couldn't find even a single one stating how "hot", "arousing", or anything other sexual that story turned out to be for the commenter. The only people I would classify as toxic or problematic in that comment section are the dozens of people screaming about "small dick energy" and calling everyone incels.

I mean, there are truly disgusting and atrocious stories on this site you could all complain about!

I read a story where a helpless paraplegic man was regularly raped by his wife's lover, to the point he needed reconstructive surgery, but apparently that's fine with the people in this threat. I read a story about a woman tying up her sleeping husband and then raping him with a 12'' rubberdick until he bled, for no other reason than to please her bull, but that's just "fantasy" and I shouldn't shame anyone. A few months ago I even read a story about a mother getting sexual gratification out of smothering her son (not in the good way), ultimately placing him in a bathtub and holding him under water until he stopped moving, effectively murdering the kid, but I guess I'm just bad at that whole "suspension of disbelieve" thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

But GOD FORBID you write a story about the actually possible real life consequences of cheating, exploring the dark depths of the human mind. Because, if the victim is female, suddenly all hell breaks loose, you're a disgusting proponent of violence against women, and THIS garbage has no place on this site!

You talk as if these revenge-fantasy stories were some sort of endangered species in danger of being snuffed out by the weight of our harsh opinion. There are thousands of them on the site, and from what people have said here, there'd be more if Laurel wasn't enforcing some very minimal standards on just how brutal they can get.

"The actually possible real life consequences of cheating"? There are a million ways cheating can pan out. People can realise they weren't right for one another, and separate amicably, doing their best to be grown-ups about it; they can think they've been treated badly, but decide that they need to prioritise their kids' well-being above their own puerile wish for revenge; they can make a clean break and work to leave that resentment behind so they don't carry it into their next relationship and poison that one with mistrust; they can decide that maybe they were being a shitty partner and the cheating wasn't the root of the problem, and then work to remedy that; they can decide that they're sexually incompatible but they're great together in every other way, so maybe some kind of non-monogamous situation works for them. I've seen all those and more.

And yes, those dysfunctional revenge scenarios are a possible consequence too (they're possible even when the "cheating" is entirely imaginary, come to that) and if somebody really wants to explore the "actually possible real life consequences of cheating", sure, that should be represented somewhere on the reading list.

But the readers we're talking about aren't interested in exploring. They're not looking to read a whole bunch of different ways that cheating could turn out and learn about the infinite variety of the human psyche. What they want is to read the same scenario over and over, wallow in that one dysfunctional cliché. You can tell by the way they respond to a story that doesn't follow that formula:

"Some revenge needs to happen"
"A totally meaningless story, Don't care about hoe he moves on, the only interesting things to now are hoe he gets even"
"I know this isn't a BTB but I wish it was"

So, no, let's not kid ourselves this is about expanding people's horizons by exploring some challenging territory. This is about comfort reading for folk who can't imagine any other way for a Real Man (tm) to respond to cheating, and who don't want to.

Even IF that WERE the case... let's take a closer look at that.

Revenge fantasies are a universal response in all human cultures,

Perhaps so - I'd like to see a supporting cite before I accept that as proven truth, for now I'm willing to take it as true for the sake of discussion - but the notion that it's healthy to wallow in them most certainly isn't universally accepted.

and it's nothing more than our brains trying to level out the pain we experienced and counteract the negative imprint it leaves behind.

That is certainly a part of it, but it's by no means the only part. People respond to the world around them, they watch and listen to how other people deal with being hurt, and take those cues when they decide whether to see a therapist or go walk the dog or go load the gun.

The more severe the pain and/or humiliation you experienced, the more drastic will the fantasies your brain comes up with turn out. That's normal. That's real life.

Perhaps so. Smoking and heavy drinking are also "normal" ways of dealing with stressful events.

And, whether you like it or not, that's healthy!

Says who?

People have all sorts of ways of coping with hurt. Not all of them are healthy. If you want to convince anybody that wallowing in revenge fantasy is something that helps people get better and move on, rather than trapping them in a circle of self-reinforcing self-pity and rage that ultimately makes them incapable of forming healthy partnerships, some evidence would be nice.

Now, take a look at all the people in the comments and in this thread. What do you think it says about you all, who are so eager to not only dismiss these normal responses, but even engage in mockery and ridicule about it? Doesn't exactly paint anyone in a great picture. If you can't understand why crimes of passion are a thing, that just means that you were never sufficiently invested in someone other than yourself.

And this kind of logic is where that "read the same scenario over and over" pattern gets people. The inability to comprehend that other scenarios are even possible, that somebody else could be terribly hurt and yet find a way to respond to it that doesn't involve letting that hurt life rent-free in their heads forever and ever. I do think it's likely that a lot of those commenters have been hurt, and I'm sorry for the pain they feel. But they still do have choices about how they deal with that pain, and not all choices are good.

One of the things you'll see with people who make bad choices is that they'll go to extraordinary lengths to rationalise those choices, to convince themselves that they couldn't have done better. That anybody who managed to come away from being cheated on without carrying that hurt and resentment in their head forever must be some sort of morally deficient soy beta cuck.

Protip:
You want to see ACTUAL deranged sadists and psychopaths? Go to YouTube, search for homemade mousetraps, and read the comments underneath the videos that present you with all the torture devices. Then compare those comments with the ones underneath postmaster's story. I think the difference will be very clear, very quickly.

Wouldn't greatly surprise me if some of them were the very same people who come here wanting all-BTB.

 

[lovecraft68]

One of the things you'll see with people who make bad choices is that they'll go to extraordinary lengths to rationalise those choices, to convince themselves that they couldn't have done better. That anybody who managed to come away from being cheated on without carrying that hurt and resentment in their head forever must be some sort of morally deficient soy beta cuck.



Wouldn't greatly surprise me if some of them were the very same people who come here wanting all-BTB.

I guess I'm one of those beta cucks. Wife cheated, I walked away, had fun for a couple of years, remarried to an amazing woman and when I look back I see the end of that wreck of a marriage as leading to the best thing that ever happened to me.

Guess I was supposed to be a bitter disgusting incel who hates an entire gender because of one person and spends the rest of their sad existence stroking to eroticized violence against women

Nah, instead I chose to be an actual man.

 

[lovecraft68]

Seeing this thread is about a competition, let's get off of Past Master for a moment to allow a new contestant.

Don't let the naysayers discourage you.

The context of the scene within the entire story will influence its acceptability. I have several scenes in my stories, that taken only as a single scene would never pass, but they all sailed through without rejection as part of the overall work. (I won't provide a link to it, but there is even a rather graphic gang rape and torture scene that leads to a female character's death in one story)

So, first people who try to adhere to the rules are naysayers.
People who are adverse to torture porn are naysayers
They then brag about a woman being raped and tortured to death in the story. This was in Novels and Novellas, a non erotic category, but its violates three rules and they're encouraging people to do the same.

The competition is heating up.

 

[lovecraft68]

Let's be honest here. This entire thread is hilarious.

Just for fun, I just went through all the (currently) 107 comments under your story, and I couldn't find even a single one stating how "hot", "arousing", or anything other sexual that story turned out to be for the commenter. The only people I would classify as toxic or problematic in that comment section are the dozens of people screaming about "small dick energy" and calling everyone incels.

I mean, there are truly disgusting and atrocious stories on this site you could all complain about!

I read a story where a helpless paraplegic man was regularly raped by his wife's lover, to the point he needed reconstructive surgery, but apparently that's fine with the people in this threat. I read a story about a woman tying up her sleeping husband and then raping him with a 12'' rubberdick until he bled, for no other reason than to please her bull, but that's just "fantasy" and I shouldn't shame anyone. A few months ago I even read a story about a mother getting sexual gratification out of smothering her son (not in the good way), ultimately placing him in a bathtub and holding him under water until he stopped moving, effectively murdering the kid, but I guess I'm just bad at that whole "suspension of disbelieve" thing.

But GOD FORBID you write a story about the actually possible real life consequences of cheating, exploring the dark depths of the human mind. Because, if the victim is female, suddenly all hell breaks loose, you're a disgusting proponent of violence against women, and THIS garbage has no place on this site!

Even IF that WERE the case... let's take a closer look at that.

Revenge fantasies are a universal response in all human cultures, and it's nothing more than our brains trying to level out the pain we experienced and counteract the negative imprint it leaves behind. The more severe the pain and/or humiliation you experienced, the more drastic will the fantasies your brain comes up with turn out. That's normal. That's real life. And, whether you like it or not, that's healthy!
Now, take a look at all the people in the comments and in this thread. What do you think it says about you all, who are so eager to not only dismiss these normal responses, but even engage in mockery and ridicule about it? Doesn't exactly paint anyone in a great picture. If you can't understand why crimes of passion are a thing, that just means that you were never sufficiently invested in someone other than yourself.

Protip:
You want to see ACTUAL deranged sadists and psychopaths? Go to YouTube, search for homemade mousetraps, and read the comments underneath the videos that present you with all the torture devices. Then compare those comments with the ones underneath postmaster's story. I think the difference will be very clear, very quickly.

Are you reporting these stories?

Because that's the problem, none of those examples you gave should be on here, which goes to show how this site really feels about its rules. I'm willing to bet if you go back and report them, nothing will happen.

If they did, and these stories were few and far between and exceptions to the rule, these discussions wouldn't be happening. As I said in another thread, you can't blame someone for writing a rape story in a section called non consent because....self explanatory.

And I will call you out on your "violence against woman" snark because when there is violence against men in that section? That's when the hell breaks loose. People like you who defend rape in stories just whined about "oh the poor men" in other stories. My first point here is none of those stories should be here. But you come in here, oh the poor men, but the woman stories, they're fine aren't they?

Tell me you're a bitter incel without saying those words.

I'll end this with this is an erotic fucking story site, everything here, intended or not, ends up being seen as arousing. You want to explore the dark reality of life and other extreme things? Write and publish a real fucking novel like I've done because I've written things that would make you have an aneurism because a lot of it happens to men(but scum and criminals and when I mean criminal I mean serious crime, not 'cheating') but I know who I do and don't want to appeal to and none of the violence is sexual or around the sexual sections, I keep a line between what's meant to be sexy and what's meant to be horrific.

Posting in LW is a deliberate appeal to scum, and that's not just about the violence against women, but to the men who are their lover or the husband, or anyone. To restate a prior point, hate and violence should not be a fetish

So save your fake outrage for the cloven hooved idiots you're defending.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Oh boy. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to tell me with this, but let me just point out that I was not trying to steer the argument away from anything. I was simply trying to illustrate a point that I made to pastmaster specifically.

You talk as if these revenge-fantasy stories were some sort of endangered species in danger of being snuffed out by the weight of our harsh opinion. There are thousands of them on the site, and from what people have said here, there'd be more if Laurel wasn't enforcing some very minimal standards on just how brutal they can get.

I don't agree. I was, again, trying to illustrate a specific point. The point being that there are truly horrifying tales on this site that nobody ever had a problem with, at least I never saw any old threads as long as this one complaining about them. And certainly not when it could be somehow classified as a sexual kink.

So, no, let's not kid ourselves this is about expanding people's horizons by exploring some challenging territory. This is about comfort reading for folk who can't imagine any other way for a Real Man (tm) to respond to cheating, and who don't want to.

Never claimed it was. If you scroll up and actually read what I wrote, you'll notice that I specifically talked about the "dark depths" of the human mind. Not about an excursion about the many ways people can deal with negative emotions without causing a fuss.

Perhaps so - I'd like to see a supporting cite before I accept that as proven truth, for now I'm willing to take it as true for the sake of discussion - but the notion that it's healthy to wallow in them most certainly isn't universally accepted.

The Journal of Mind and Behavior Vol. 31, No. 3/4 (Summer and Autumn 2010), pp. 195-235

Says who?

Who says that revenge fantasies are healthy? Well, knock yourself out.

While, yes, you are absolutely correct in stating that holding on to those fantasies will cause more problems than they could possibly solve, the initial exploration of your desire for revenge can give you enough satisfaction to deter you from actually acting on them, and allow you to move past the hate without making a horrible mistake.

Wouldn't greatly surprise me if some of them were the very same people who come here wanting all-BTB.

You obviously did not actually look at the comments. Not trying to be an ass about this, just saying that if you dealt with actual sadists and psychopaths, you see the stuff posted in LW as childsplay. And people on this forum throwing those terms around will make you raise your eyebrows in wonder.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Tell me you're a bitter incel without saying those words.

Tell me your constant incel-screaming isn't just projection, because the more of your posts I read, the more I could accuse you of being a "nice guy" trying to whiteknight in a desperate attempt to collect browny points with the ladies.

Honestly, I apologize if you got the impression that I was trying to defend rape stories. I wasn't. In fact, our views on that topic seem to align. I was merely trying to point out how I never saw anyone of the people in this thread complain about spousal abuse and violence before, as long as it was directed at men. Though, I don't think that counts as "whining about 'oh the poor men'" because I condemn pretty much most of the nc stories.

Naturally, I did report those stories I used as examples and many more. Nothing happened. Ever. You were spot-on with that bet.

But under each of those stories, the comments were celebrating the female MCs behavior. So, the real claim should be that the LW category is catering to women hating incels AND men hating feminazis. But, somehow, the common consensus only covers the first half of that, and I call that hypocrisy.

I'll end this with this is an erotic fucking story site, everything here, intended or not, ends up being seen as arousing.

Does it, though? Where's the content guideline demanding sex in a story? Was there ever a case of a story being rejected, simply because it didn't have any sex in it?
I mean, everyone who spends more than a few days on this site should come across quite a few stories that are clearly NOT erotica. Today alone I read two stories where the authors clearly stated in the very first paragraph: There is no sex in their story / This is not a wank story. So, why would you assume that everybody will see everything on here as arousing?

 

[lovecraft68]

Sarkamas has never written a story here.
But please continue to tell all of us who have posted stories here about how it should or shouldn't be.
Experience talks, and we all know what walks.

 

[lovecraft68]

Tell me your constant incel-screaming isn't just projection, because the more of your posts I read, the more I could accuse you of being a "nice guy" trying to whiteknight in a desperate attempt to collect browny points with the ladies.

Honestly, I apologize if you got the impression that I was trying to defend rape stories. I wasn't. In fact, our views on that topic seem to align. I was merely trying to point out how I never saw anyone of the people in this thread complain about spousal abuse and violence before, as long as it was directed at men. Though, I don't think that counts as "whining about 'oh the poor men'" because I condemn pretty much most of the nc stories.

Naturally, I did report those stories I used as examples and many more. Nothing happened. Ever. You were spot-on with that bet.

But under each of those stories, the comments were celebrating the female MCs behavior. So, the real claim should be that the LW category is catering to women hating incels AND men hating feminazis. But, somehow, the common consensus only covers the first half of that, and I call that hypocrisy.



Does it, though? Where's the content guideline demanding sex in a story? Was there ever a case of a story being rejected, simply because it didn't have any sex in it?
I mean, everyone who spends more than a few days on this site should come across quite a few stories that are clearly NOT erotica. Today alone I read two stories where the authors clearly stated in the very first paragraph: There is no sex in their story / This is not a wank story. So, why would you assume that everybody will see everything on here as arousing?

No sex, but it was put in an erotic category rather than Non erotic or Novels. Hmm...
Why? Two reasons, bigger audience, and....the violence is sex to those fruits and the OP knew that going in.
Good enough?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Oh boy. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to tell me with this, but let me just point out that I was not trying to steer the argument away from anything. I was simply trying to illustrate a point that I made to pastmaster specifically.


I don't agree. I was, again, trying to illustrate a specific point. The point being that there are truly horrifying tales on this site that nobody ever had a problem with, at least I never saw any old threads as long as this one complaining about them. And certainly not when it could be somehow classified as a sexual kink.

I don't read every story that's posted on this site. If I don't see it and don't know it exists, it's probably not going to get a reaction out of me. Claiming it's "fine with the people in this thread" is ridiculous when you haven't ascertained whether we even knew about it.

But I'd also note that "how horrific would this be IRL?" isn't the same question as "how problematic could it be as a story?" Blowing up a planet with a population of billions is a worse crime than murdering "just" a few dozen people, and yet the average serial-killer movie gets a more restrictive rating than Star Wars.

Re. the request for a cite on the assertion that "Revenge fantasies are a universal response in all human cultures":

The Journal of Mind and Behavior Vol. 31, No. 3/4 (Summer and Autumn 2010), pp. 195-235

The abstract of that paper makes the assertion: "Revenge is universal in human cultures". Later on it re-asserts: "It is generally agreed that revenge is a universal human practice", and it goes on to quote Elster making similar statements. But I can't find anywhere where it actually provides support for that assertion beyond the author's belief that it is so, and another person's statement of the same belief.
I wouldn't be surprised if revenge were to be found in every human culture, but to be clear, I'm looking for a standard of evidence beyond "that's what I reckon, and somebody else reckoned the same thing too".

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278015968_The_Pleasures_of_Revenge

Who says that revenge fantasies are healthy? Well, knock yourself out.

Did you actually read these? None of them support that statement.

The first one (Van Denderen et al.) explicitly takes the opposite position. Their focus is on people who've lost someone to homicide. The abstract states: "It is therefore likely that individuals bereaved by homicide experience high levels of revenge, which may hamper efforts to cope with traumatic loss. ... Levels of both dispositional and situational revenge were positively associated with symptoms of PTSD and complicated grief, and negatively with positive functioning."

["Positively associated" here is in the mathematical sense, not a value-judgement sense - it's saying that people with higher levels of "revenge" - here meaning mental focus on revenge - experienced higher levels of PTSD and grief symptoms, i.e. worse mental health.]

In the body of the article, they state:

In crime victims, other than homicide, revenge was found to be associated with more intense rumination, less life satisfaction and negative affect in students confronted with relatively mild interpersonal transgressions (McCullough, Bellah, Kilpatrick, & Johnson, 2001); it is associated with Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) in victims of severe sexual or physical violence (Kunst, 2011; Orth, Montada, & Maercker, 2006) or war (Cardozo, Kaiser, Gotway, & Agani, 2003). In homicidally‐bereaved individuals, revenge may block grief processing by maintaining an external, ruminative focus on why and how the loss occurred, and which punishment the perpetrator deserves. The preoccupation with thoughts and feelings of revenge may serve as a psychological mechanism to avoid acceptance of the death and trauma, which may contribute to complicated grief (Rynearson, 1984) and PTSD (Ehlers & Clark, 2000).

...

The results of the current study can aid the development of interventions to reduce levels of dispositional and situational revenge and try to improve adjustment after severe victimization.

...

If future studies indicate that elevated revenge is causally related to more severe psychopathology and less positive functioning following homicidal loss, this could have clinical implications. For instance, homicidally bereaved individuals who seek treatment for complicated grief could benefit from interventions focused on the alleviation of revenge feelings. Our results suggest that
these interventions should focus on situational as well as dispositional revenge. There is some preliminary evidence that revenge feelings can be diminished by ruminating less about the transgression (McCullough et al., 2001), forgiving the perpetrator, and a search for positive meaning about the transgression (McCullough, Root, & Cohen, 2006).

Moving to your second link (Michael Etts):

Though the traumatized person imagines that revenge will bring relief, repetitive revenge fantasies actually increase her torment.
Violent, graphic revenge fantasies may be as arousing, frightening, and intrusive as images of the original trauma. They exacerbate the victim's feelings of horror and degrade her image of herself. They make her feel like a monster. They are also highly frustrating, since revenge can never change or compensate for the harm that was done. People who actually commit acts of revenge, such as combat veterans who commit atrocities, do not succeed in getting rid of their post- traumatic symptoms; rather, they seem to suffer the most severe and intractable disturbances (Hermann,1992, p.189)

It ends with a story about two captains attacked by pirates, in which the one who seeks revenge ends up much worse off than the one who concentrates on fixing the damage to his ship and getting his cargo to its destination. The moral is pretty clear.

Your third link (Eadeh et al.) explores the nuances of how people react to an actual act of revenge (specifically, Americans reminded of the death of Osama bin Laden). In particular, it's following up on some earlier work where they showed that being reminded of revenge may make people feel worse while believing it made them feel better. It's interesting reading, and TBH I'd have to give it more time to grasp the full nuance of what they're finding, but it doesn't seem to be discussing revenge fantasies at all.

You obviously did not actually look at the comments. Not trying to be an ass about this, just saying that if you dealt with actual sadists and psychopaths, you see the stuff posted in LW as childsplay. And people on this forum throwing those terms around will make you raise your eyebrows in wonder.

I read them. I had to scroll quite a way to find the kind of comments you're talking about, past several to the effect of "I like that this lets me get the mice out of my house without killing them", before I got to the folk who wanted to kill those mice. They weren't exactly pleasant, but nothing that went above and beyond what I'd expect to see in a LW comment here.

OTOH, YT's algorithm tailors results according to our viewing histories, so it's quite possible the video I looked at wasn't one of the ones you've been looking at.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I don't read every story that's posted on this site. If I don't see it and don't know it exists, it's probably not going to get a reaction out of me. Claiming it's "fine with the people in this thread" is ridiculous when you haven't ascertained whether we even knew about it.

But I'd also note that "how horrific would this be IRL?" isn't the same question as "how problematic could it be as a story?" Blowing up a planet with a population of billions is a worse crime than murdering "just" a few dozen people, and yet the average serial-killer movie gets a more restrictive rating than Star Wars.

True. I just would have expected a similar outcome. It's not like there are dozens of topics complaining about violence in stories in general, it just irritated me that I couldn't find any equivalent complains in this forum dealing with the other side: Not violent revenge, but unprovoked violence.

Re. the request for a cite on the assertion that "Revenge fantasies are a universal response in all human cultures":

It's two in the morning here, so I'll have to check tomorrow, but I was pretty certain those three have touched upon revenge fantasies. As I wrote before when I posted those three sources, you are absolutely correct about revenge fantasies being less than desireable when people can't let go of them, and that is also the ultimate conclusion in the texts. But the initial occurance of them can help and are a natural response observed in basically all adults.

I read them. I had to scroll quite a way to find the kind of comments you're talking about, past several to the effect of "I like that this lets me get the mice out of my house without killing them", before I got to the folk who wanted to kill those mice. They weren't exactly pleasant, but nothing that went above and beyond what I'd expect to see in a LW comment here.

OTOH, YT's algorithm tailors results according to our viewing histories, so it's quite possible the video I looked at wasn't one of the ones you've been looking at.

Sadly, there are quite a few videos about animal traps that are not meant to be used for pest control. They mostly incorporate electric wiring, dry ice, or glue. And the comments underneath those videos are then mostly along the lines of "awesome that it broke their jaw, not you can watch them slowly starve", or "that glue-trap is especially satisfying if used in the winter, since you can see them shivering as they freeze to death". I have yet to see a comment in the LW section that actually showed a similar level of glee about someone else's suffering.

 

[PastMaster]

One final thought from me. And i guess its almost peeing in the faces of the Incels who read LW and - if you believe LC65 jerk off while thinking of women getting murdered.
The hitman, was there to kill a cheating HUSBAND - and had been contracted by the cheating man's WIFE!! which he did.

The fact that he also found out that it was his own wife that his target was cheating with was beside the point.

I find it very interesting that nobody seemed to mind that the guy got killed - there was a little tension when there was a thought about torture of the guy but once that was settled because it never happened, that was the end of that.

Go read this series of stories https://www.literotica.com/s/heavy-traffic-ch-01 posted on this EROTICA site. Read the part where a woman gets brutally tortured and raped, has a red hot poker shoved up inside her, gets shot through her vagina, and subsequently dies.(isnt torture and snuff against site rules?) Read the part about the man who gets both arms and both legs and his genitals chopped off
Once you have read that, come back and tell me MY story - where a guy and a girl get poisoned, is violent. (oh and try not to notice the 14 year old losing her virginity as well)

And dont you dare tell me that posting that story in the Novellas section makes it alright since thats not an erotic section - especially after you waxed so loud and so lyrical about this entire site being erotic stories

I'll end this with this is an erotic fucking story site, everything here, intended or not, ends up being seen as arousing.