The Corner

[NemoAlia]

Lance, I'm not certain that your description of your accomplishments in the third decade of your life proves a whole lot about differences in self-esteem between generations. However, I think it does point to at least one important difference (as long as we're making generalizations): people in 'your' generation were encouraged to 'make your mark on the world.' People in 'my' generation are encouraged to follow a less clear path -- the mysterious 'voyage of self-discovery' that all the pop magazines are talkin' about.

Um, I'm not certain how that necessarily relates to the topic at hand, except that it's hard to have confidence in your actions when you don't have a clear recipe to follow. Moreover, if everyone's telling us that we need to 'get to know ourselves,' we start to think that we must not be 'knowing ourselves already. I suspect that this, plus all the other relevant pop psychology, has at least some impact on that generational phenomenon called insecurity that you're talking about.

Now, I can't promise that I actually endorse these ideas. Right now, it's just stream-of-consciousness, buddy, and I'm throwing these thoughts out solely for the purpose of discussion. Seems like somebody's gotta say 'em.

 

[Soron]

Thank You all...

Rose, lost, Parklife, RisiaSkye, Eb thank you all for the birthday wishes.

Now back to a very important discussion.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Self-esteem

However, it’s much easier to find worth in yourself when others help you see it.

From my point of view, I find that if you do not see it in yourself, you will not believe what others tell you.

It is like having someone hold up a mirror for you to see. You will still have to raise your head toward the mirror and open your eyes to see what is reflected there.


Eb <just my 2.5 cents worth>

 

[artful]

Self-esteem

From my point of view, I find that if you do not see it in yourself, you will not believe what others tell you.

It is like having someone hold up a mirror for you to see. You will still have to raise your head toward the mirror and open your eyes to see what is reflected there.


Eb <just my 2.5 cents worth>

To expand a bit on your post Sis. If a person can see no truth in themselves, I suspect they will not be able to see truth in others. Wouldn't this also apply to self-esteem and other qualities within a persons make up?

 

[~Dream~]

sometimes we all just need a gentle

push (of encouragement) from others who really care for us and then it becomes ALOT clearer to see our own self-worth ..perhaps we really did know it all along but just didnt wanna admit it to ourselves for 1 reason or another.
Encouragement goes a LONG way in providing self-esteem and confidence such as the case between a mother and a child.. No matter how "good" a person they might feel that they are,1 WRONG word from a parent for example can send that child's confidence in themself plummetting.
Sometimes,,I do have to hear my qualities from others to be assured they "truly exist"

 

[UCE]

Re: Self-esteem

In my experience self-esteem is not something even a strong Master can give to a submissive. Sure, they can help by showing pride and respect for their charge. But, it still has to come from within that person to recognize that they are what they are and they do have something special to offer no matter what they look like, or what social skills they have, or their education.

Actually, a master can give this to his slave, or a dominant to a submissive, particularly if the dominant has had specialized training in "putting" other emotions into people as part of a healing process. (This has nothing to do with bdsm, there aren't formal classes in it either: you have to have a talent for it to begin with which someone knowledgable recognizes and then teaches you the specific skills, non-linearly and usually non-verbally.) I have had years of direct, personal experience with this. However, the submissive does have to, at minimum, want to change, believe that change in this area is possible, and, most importantly, actually be capable of change. Some submissives who also have low self-esteem are too psychologically or emotionally broken to be capable of the courage or effort needed to change, even change that is positive.

 

[UCE]

Unfortunately, there are many people out there who require a significant other (vanilla or BDSM) in order to feel complete.

They find their self image in their partner's approval or in simply having a partner.

It's important to understand that these two statements do not describe _at all_ the same thing. Some people are at their very best in the company of another, and such dependence, or co-dependence, if their SO feels the same, is not necessarily representative of insecurity or a lack of self-image. In some cases, it actually reflects an ability, not a lack: the ability to live socially, cooperatively, peacefully, and supportively with another person in a manner and to a degree that our general society sneers at and tries to train out of us with its "inidividualism" propoganda. Bucking the system is never easy--it requires immense strength of character, and so if you see two people very happily and positively co-dependent, living together, working together, sharing goals, cooperating, you need to resist the urge to label them with the derrogatory pop-psyc terms of insecure co-dependence or "lacking a sense of self." Most people in such postive relationships are so strong as individuals that they could, if they had to, withstand with their iron inner cores a level of isolation, desperation, loss, and horror that an ordinary "individualistic" person would crumple under. They just prefer not to.

It's fairly easy, of course, if you're used to reading people to spot who is huddling together terrified and needing support to stand and who are extremely close because they consciously choose it as a wonderful and self-fulfilling way to live. Most people who huddle out of weakness and terror, however, do so in larger groups, not in coupledom. One other person patting them on the back and telling them they are great just isn't enough for the genuinely insecure and lacking in self-image: they need dozens of people doing it, and as those dozens of others are often needy in the same ways, you end up with a self-congraulatory, self-referential circle-jerk.

This is one of the reasons I hate most groups, and will never participate in social events in person and only occasionally online: those places are swarming with such people, who are so jealous when they encounter someone who's sufficient unto herself, so much so that she doesn't buy into the group mores or unspoken rules (as her only laws are within herself), that they do their best to destroy her.

I feel very powerfully that I am an intergral part of my long-term partner. I feel, even, that we are one person. He feels that way about me, too. It is a profound sense of connection that runs between us, and yes, neither of us feels complete without the other. But I know, because I've always known about my tremendous inner strength, that if he were to die (virturally everything else horrible has happened to him now except death, so I won't list more than that), I would, unfortunately I think, not go to pieces, not go insane, not get emotionally weird, not stop functioning, not become dependant on anyone else, even not _appear_ to mourn for very long. I'd do something or several things new and creative and very interesting, and I'd never stop hoping and trying to meet another person that I could become a part of. But if I never met such a person again, I wouldn't die unhappy or bitter. Years ago I had already acomplished everything I wanted for my life, and ever since then I've know I could die complete, with no regrets or desires to do anything different.

(Shrug) I suppose people will still call all of this weak if they absolutely need to believe the silly "Individualsm Is Best" myth that says people who function best with a partner always do so beacuse they are lacking something or weak to begin with. I think though, that if they could see the kinds of extraordinary things I am capable of and also the kind of mind-destroying hell I am breezing through with very little damage right now, they'd really have to eat their words.

Daily gratuitious porn:

 

[UCE]

I also have noticed the confidence and uncertainty issues in the 25 (ish) to 30 something age group. Like others, I have put this down to people not having a clear idea of role, life direction and so on.

Adding myself to the list of people who have noticed this, but I ascribe a different primary reason to it: the times. They are much bleaker, harder, comparatively impoverished (compared to the last three or four generations, I mean, if you see a generation as 20 yrs.), and dangerous, globally and personally, than they were, even when I was coming of age in a bad recession. Life is more hectic, much more work is required for much less reward. There isn't a lot for this particular generation to hope for. It makes me laugh to think of the children of the 60s who wrote lyrics like "it seems to me we're on the brink of destruction..." They had no fucking idea back then (well, other than that singular event, Yee Olde Cuban Missle Crisis).

Someone said that the younger generation, the one after the 30 somethings, is turning inward? Can anyone say more about that?

 

[Soron]

Re: Re: Self-esteem

Actually, a master can give this to his slave, or a dominant to a submissive, particularly if the dominant has had specialized training in "putting" other emotions into people as part of a healing process. (This has nothing to do with bdsm, there aren't formal classes in it either: you have to have a talent for it to begin with which someone knowledgable recognizes and then teaches you the specific skills, non-linearly and usually non-verbally.) I have had years of direct, personal experience with this. However, the submissive does have to, at minimum, want to change, believe that change in this area is possible, and, most importantly, actually be capable of change. Some submissives who also have low self-esteem are too psychologically or emotionally broken to be capable of the courage or effort needed to change, even change that is positive.

I agree it doesn't have to do with BDSM. A Master can nurture and show pride. I also agree they have to want to change. I would do everything in my power to help that change take place.

 

[suki iroppoi]

re: self esteem, another $0.02

From my point of view, I find that if you do not see it in yourself, you will not believe what others tell you.

It is like having someone hold up a mirror for you to see. You will still have to raise your head toward the mirror and open your eyes to see what is reflected there.


Eb <just my 2.5 cents worth>

Speakinging particularly of the 20-35 age group, I think that women and girls have been so successfully commodified through advertising, porn, and other media that we internalize a warped and hollow sense of what makes us valuable and worthwhile very early on. Without another power that says differently, good self esteem can't be found entirely in oneself. Definitely, something outside of one' s internal universe has to begin the process.

I'm pretty sure that if/when men and boys are used in a similarly superficial way, they will experience the same self-esteem issues.

suki iroppoi