The new hierarchy?

[bogusagain]

You're mistakenly asking for someone to attempt to make aesthetics resemble physics, which is silly and/or devious on your part.

Didn't you start the "Prose poetry is Over Group"?

Was that just you getting out of the wrong side of the bed or did you have specific aesthetic reasons for you're wanting to extinguish prose poetry? If I remember rightly, you gave specific critical reasons but now you are saying those reasons were silly?

 

[vrosej10]

Don't tempt me...

What I am saying is be careful. If you point at an example, point specifically..
one of the things in that poem is rhyming couplets, are you advocating a return to?

My several selves to one coherent thing,
Be it elfin poet, troll, or Ming

Which is not what I would recommend to anyone. I don't thing he would either.

Yes, that comment offended me, those type of comments always do. Value judgment with nothing attached. Specifics.

...this is how it’s done.
how???

would you like me to tell you how to write poetry and post a link to someone's name?

If you had been reading more poetry this week, you would have understood my comment. Two other poets who write rhyming poems complained about why they weren't getting the good marks or comments and as a technical pointer, the comment was suggesting PoetGuy's work as a sample of how it is done well. I was one of the few who bothered to take the time to read them and address their complaints. I was trying my best to help them. If you wanted to help not stir, you could have jumped in and given them pointers. You are more qualified in this area and I wouldn't have needed to be so 'offensive'.

You have it out for me at the moment and I can't quite figure out why you are singling me out.

 

[ishtat]

By the way, one of these days Ishtat you will have to explain to me what you meant when you compared the phrasing in my poem Jazzstory to being read to in Welsh. Is that sort of phrasing a tradition in Welsh stories? It's a way of writing I particularly enjoy but I just made it up, kind of from the jazz rhythms I often listen to when I write. I've been wondering about that ever since I read your comment.

I didn't specifically refer to phrasing but on reflection your assumption makes good sense. The phrasing in this poem does give it a particular musical structure but I meant a little more than that. Occasionally I can not only see and read a poem but in my mind I hear it read, and in this case a Welsh voice is the instrument.

Why is that so? When I was a child, although I was born English, I and my siblings were essentially brought up by a Welsh nurse/nanny. She could only speak Welsh and for my first five years until I went to school it was my first language. She told us hundreds of stories and songs, poems etc and could recite the 1588 Welsh Bible which she seemed to know backwards.

In later life I attended a couple of Eisteddfoeds and was struck by what a beautiful language Welsh is to listen to. (even if the poetry or song was not so great). But below is a link which might say more. The singer is Katherine Jenkins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXqHJe6VdWA&feature=related

 

[Angeline]

I didn't specifically refer to phrasing but on reflection your assumption makes good sense. The phrasing in this poem does give it a particular musical structure but I meant a little more than that. Occasionally I can not only see and read a poem but in my mind I hear it read, and in this case a Welsh voice is the instrument.

Why is that so? When I was a child, although I was born English, I and my siblings were essentially brought up by a Welsh nurse/nanny. She could only speak Welsh and for my first five years until I went to school it was my first language. She told us hundreds of stories and songs, poems etc and could recite the 1588 Welsh Bible which she seemed to know backwards.

In later life I attended a couple of Eisteddfoeds and was struck by what a beautiful language Welsh is to listen to. (even if the poetry or song was not so great). But below is a link which might say more. The singer is Katherine Jenkins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXqHJe6VdWA&feature=related

Thank you my friend for the explanation and the link to that very beautiful song. I have to admit I still don't get quite how you got from Jazzstory to that, but there is a particular kind of phrasing in my poem, one that engages the reader most (imo) by reading it aloud (I don't have a working mic or online recorder these days or I'd have done an audio version of it). I think I do understand what you meant in that (read aloud) context--and also in realizing that what a writer intends and a reader perceives are often quite different.

The song you linked makes me think of Loreena McKennitt. Are you familiar with her? She sings the most lovely Celtic ballads, some her own compositions and others where she sets lyrics of poems to her music. This clip is of her singing her Yeats' Stolen Child to her music.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

what glorious hair she has

 

[Angeline]

what glorious hair she has

Yes, she does. And a gorgeous voice too!

 

[Epmd607]

Didn't you start the "Prose poetry is Over Group"?

Was that just you getting out of the wrong side of the bed or did you have specific aesthetic reasons for you're wanting to extinguish prose poetry? If I remember rightly, you gave specific critical reasons but now you are saying those reasons were silly?

Aesthetically, prose poetry is anti-poetic; and we're just talking about what I define as prose poetry, not even getting into the "prose poetry" that most people here disfavor and themselves relegate to the corner. This really is the central reason why prose poetry needs to go. There are aesthetic reasons for the existence of poetry, they surround sound and often the visual, musicality aka bringing music/elegance to our inelegant language.

A poem that follows meter and perfect rhyme clinically, doesn't work for most readers due to the boredom factor Edgar Poe describes in his essay on poetry. Today we'd call it a nursery rhyme poem, because most verse produced is everything but rigid and highly structured. The flip side is a "poem" that has almost no poetic elements. A prose poetry that sounds more like prose than poetry is uninteresting to the expectations of the experienced and inexperienced reader of poems.

Whether anyone likes my definition(or premise) for what separates prose and poetry(musicality of our language) is minor to irrelevant to the discussion, because everyone separates prose from poetry in some way, if only breaking their journal entry into verse. There is an objective difference between prose and poetry. Objective usually only means, "Mutually agreed upon conclusion". The conclusion being: Poetry is different than Prose. Arriving at premises for 'why' is where the argument is.

This is different than hierarchical structuring of aesthetic values though. Literotica clearly has a way to structure a complex problem of how do you give hierarchy to poems and stories over a decade with possibly a million voters and contributors. There are clear manipulations and aberrant data from the past, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a top ten for each month based on number of votes, voting score.

If you could start a system that doesn't allow much cheating/manipulation, and begin anew with a finite number of poems given a finite period, you'd have an excellent answer to what is at the end of that time frame the most pleasing poem to Lit readers. Literotica is the best immediate answer to that problem. I can find the most liked or 'best' poem from Feb 11 if I'm given the premises that the best poem will have the highest number of votes and highest possible score for the month. Should be no problem giving a top ten hierarchy and matching that hierarchy to an argument for what was objectively most pleasing to the voters. Especially for last month, since there's a thread that states last month was sooooo fabulous! the best ever! etc.

 

[SeattleRain]

If no one else is going to plant the flag, I would like to be queen. Thank you.

 

[twelveoone]

If you had been reading more poetry this week, you would have understood my comment. Two other poets who write rhyming poems complained about why they weren't getting the good marks or comments and as a technical pointer, the comment was suggesting PoetGuy's work as a sample of how it is done well. I was one of the few who bothered to take the time to read them and address their complaints. I was trying my best to help them. If you wanted to help not stir, you could have jumped in and given them pointers. You are more qualified in this area and I wouldn't have needed to be so 'offensive'.

You have it out for me at the moment and I can't quite figure out why you are singling me out.

I wasn't, or didn't mean too. Truth, I respect you more than, shall we say, some of the deadasses around here. I respect you for your ability to handle criticism.

And I just have a fucking wonderful knack for pissing people off. Which I am polishing to perfection. Anyhow I don't know what caval whatever thought, but I noticed Cuddly visited Poetguy, a good thing.

Now, if I may be excused, I do have to go and either piss off some other people, or take the eagle and the flag off my banner and replace it with more of a point.

 

[twelveoone]

Whether anyone likes my definition(or premise) for what separates prose and poetry(musicality of our language) is

Especially for last month, since there's a thread that states last month was sooooo fabulous! the best ever! etc.

musicality is undefined, based on an analogy that breaks down rather fast.
Give me specifics!

And last month may not have been the best ever, but it sure as hell looked soooooooo much better than last year. Oh, and I didn't submit anything last month.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

If no one else is going to plant the flag, I would like to be queen. Thank you.

Lavender Blue

 

[twelveoone]

If no one else is going to plant the flag, I would like to be queen. Thank you.

ah, SR this might be Iwo Jima

 

[bogusagain]

Aesthetically, prose poetry is anti-poetic; and we're just talking about what I define as prose poetry, not even getting into the "prose poetry" that most people here disfavor and themselves relegate to the corner. This really is the central reason why prose poetry needs to go. There are aesthetic reasons for the existence of poetry, they surround sound and often the visual, musicality aka bringing music/elegance to our inelegant language.

This is nonsensical. Poetic merely means relating to poetry so anything, even a concrete block can be poetic. What you actually mean is that prose poetry isn't poetry at all but then you write about poetry meter.....

A poem that follows meter and perfect rhyme clinically, doesn't work for most readers due to the boredom factor Edgar Poe describes in his essay on poetry. Today we'd call it a nursery rhyme poem, because most verse produced is everything but rigid and highly structured. The flip side is a "poem" that has almost no poetic elements. A prose poetry that sounds more like prose than poetry is uninteresting to the expectations of the experienced and inexperienced reader of poems.

So it seems you occupy a halfway house between poetry and prose which is what I would call prose poetry. I might be more catholic in my prose poetry and you more of a calvinist but we are both on the spectrum between prose and poetry, which people tend to call prose poetry because prose poetry is poetic as it relates to poetry.

 

[twelveoone]

So it seems you occupy a halfway house between poetry and prose which is what I would call prose poetry. I might be more catholic in my prose poetry and you more of a calvinist but we are both on the spectrum between prose and poetry, which people tend to call prose poetry because prose poetry is poetic as it relates to poetry.

I thought you were Jewish,
didn't you post some thing about Poet Picnics and Kaddish Poetry?

 

[bogusagain]

I thought you were Jewish,
didn't you post some thing about Poet Picnics and Kaddish Poetry?

I probably posted something about Ginsberg's poem Kaddish, which proved to be an expensive book as I had to go to the US to buy it. Though I did decide to have a holiday and visit a friend while I was there.

 

[theognis]

If no one else is going to plant the flag, I would like to be queen. Thank you.

XD.

 

[PoetGuy]

I just have a fucking wonderful knack for pissing people off.

Poet Guy will cheerfully confirm that twelveoone has the knack, even an otherworldly knack, of pissing people off. Perhaps he is an alien.

 

[PoetGuy]

If no one else is going to plant the flag, I would like to be queen. Thank you.

You're welcome, Your Highness.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Poet Guy will cheerfully confirm that twelveoone has the knack, even an otherworldly knack, of pissing people off. Perhaps he is an alien.

are you saying us aliens piss you off? aliens rule KO

 

[PoetGuy]

are you saying us aliens piss you off? aliens rule KO

UnderYourSpell has overinterpreted Poet Guy's comment. (Which probably means that Poet Guy was unclear in his original exposition of same.)

Of aliens in general, Poet Guy has little experience. Of aliens in particular, meaning twelveoone, who, Poet Guy believes is European and, hence, "alien" to an American, he... he... he (meaning Poet Guy) forgets what exactly he wanted to say other than it sounded good at the time and categorized said twelveoone into some space that Poet Guy could conceptually marginalize, as he is still smarting over comments made by said twelveoone about his use of heroic couplets.

Or imagined. This is not clear.

Rats. Poet Guy's head is now spinning, and to no good cause.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

UnderYourSpell was being facetious and a little bit silly but does love to see a man digging himself into a hole ........ ye gods you've got me doing it now!

 

[butters]

 

[Epmd607]

musicality is undefined, based on an analogy that breaks down rather fast.
Give me specifics!

And last month may not have been the best ever, but it sure as hell looked soooooooo much better than last year. Oh, and I didn't submit anything last month.

The first question we've gone round a number of times, how about we restart it from: Do you believe there is a qualitative difference between prose and poetry? And what might it look like to you.

The second point, I was actually leading into an actual top ten quantitative list for last month of the most pleasing poems and an explanation why vote number isn't as trustworthy as vote score without an additional quantitative method. Seems that post never made it to this thread and I'll redo at some point. Top lists, highest vote score, last thirty days, top ten written in Feb with at least ten votes(using lit quorum of ten isn't as arbitrary for poetry because most poems don't get 20 votes in thirty days) then go back farther in time to see if any from earlier in Feb would rate higher on the top ten list. It wasn't surprising to me to see that the top ten poems were well written and highly rated by familiar commentators.

 

[twelveoone]

UnderYourSpell has overinterpreted Poet Guy's comment. (Which probably means that Poet Guy was unclear in his original exposition of same.)

Of aliens in general, Poet Guy has little experience. Of aliens in particular, meaning twelveoone, who, Poet Guy believes is European and, hence, "alien" to an American, he... he... he (meaning Poet Guy) forgets what exactly he wanted to say other than it sounded good at the time and categorized said twelveoone into some space that Poet Guy could conceptually marginalize, as he is still smarting over comments made by said twelveoone about his use of heroic couplets.

Or imagined. This is not clear.

Rats. Poet Guy's head is now spinning, and to no good cause.

In this case couplets called for, I got the ref. This used primarily as the need for specifics, i.e. holding you as an example for rhyme, skillful use of...or scheme. Either way you can't just point the finger.

BUT
on to more important things, check out NPR, read very carefully, read the goddamn poems, emp get your friend to read the comments


because I could give you lessons...

 

[twelveoone]

To order ordered lists, revision rank,
Relink the ill-forged chain of Reasoned Art,
He came. Some called him Wit, some called him Crank,
To whit came the numbered heresiarch.

His bony scythe sliced all vainglorious
Poets thin, their weak-weft cuprous sones
Diced into mere poor, sob-storious
Strict metered verse that bled in wat'ry tones.

We miss our hierarchies! the Poets cried.
He laughed a cruel laugh, played some Zevon
(The bloody one where headless Roland died),
A madman across the water. Like Levon,

He proudly wore his war wound like a crown
And swore to flip all windmills upside down.






What hierarchies?

wait a second
you're crying for sympathy
and after 1201 being copyright apathy