the pyshological side of the "slave"

[eastern sun]

No, I'm saying 1 and 2 happen routinely in non-kinky relationships, but power-based relationships encompass all three.

That's why I consider 3 to be the defining element of a power-based relationship. Obedience is the distinguishing factor.

I am not arguing with you here, I think you've made a valid point. . .

but I also want to point out that as soon as "obedience" is defined as the distinguishing factor in a power-based relationship, every cell in my body rebels. Every thought in my mind turns in another direction.

All I want to do is point out other equally relevant . . . no, much more important !! aspects of the relationship.

The idea that I would make my life's goal the practice of "obedience" is very, very disappointing.

Funny, hunh?

(I think the point I'm trying to make is that the totality of the experience is much richer, and more complicated, than any conceptual model.)

 

[nh23]

No, I'm saying 1 and 2 happen routinely in non-kinky relationships, but power-based relationships encompass all three.

That's why I consider 3 to be the defining element of a power-based relationship. Obedience is the distinguishing factor.

*nods* I gotcha now. Thanks

 

[JMohegan]

I am not arguing with you here, I think you've made a valid point. . .

but I also want to point out that as soon as "obedience" is defined as the distinguishing factor in a power-based relationship, every cell in my body rebels. Every thought in my mind turns in another direction.

All I want to do is point out other equally relevant . . . no, much more important !! aspects of the relationship.

The idea that I would make my life's goal the practice of "obedience" is very, very disappointing.

Funny, hunh?

(I think the point I'm trying to make is that the totality of the experience is much richer, and more complicated, than any conceptual model.)

I agree with that last point completely.

Substitute "negotiation and compromise" for "obedience," and you've got a mainstream relationship. It's the commitment and bond between the two people that determines the success of the relationship, not the flavor of the relationship itself.

The flavor is only relevant to the richness of the experience to the extent that it fits (or does not fit) the personalities of the participants.

 

[JMohegan]

*nods* I gotcha now. Thanks

No problem.

 

[ecstaticsub]

This is so hard to accomplish, especially in a 24/7 relationship with children, that I have used the service model to protect myself from the idea that I am an utter failure.

On the other hand, I am willing to consider that I may be using the service model to let myself off the hook . . . and will take another look at that.

I can certainly see where it would be much more difficult. I need to have the final work when it comes to my children. Fortunately my PYL has no desire to have any influence on how my husband and I raise our kids.

 

[BiBunny]

Y'know, I see it the other way around.

I am, at heart, the kind of person who always wonders if I'm doing enough for the people around me. I do tons of things for people that I really, really don't want to do just because I feel obligated. I'm the type of person who never says no to anything, and I tend to attract the kinds of people who take advantage of that.

On the other hand, I often worry if I do enough for the people I love, most especially my Master and Mistress. In the back of my mind, there's always this tiny voice whispering, "They deserve so much better than you."

I say these things to make it clear that I'm possibly looking at this the wrong way. It's just that, like eastern sun, looking at submission from an obedience model makes me feel like a failure or not submissive, period.

It's not that I don't do what they ask (usually). It's that they rarely ever ask. I don't know if it's that it really doesn't matter to them one way or the other that I don't adopt an "Anything you say, sir/ma'am" attitude toward them or if it's that they think I'm not capable of handling much, thus they don't saddle me with things.

And while I don't mind trying to do what they ask, the thing is, I do pretty much what everyone wants whether I like it or not. It's nothing special to me.

It's the going above and beyond part of service that speaks to me as a slave/pet/little girl/laundry bitch. It's not the way I behave with others. I'll do what other people want, as a rule, and probably grumble about it, but it's rare, because so many people ask a lot of me, that I ever have the time or the inclination to go out of my way to do things for them.

With Master and Mistress, I find that I want to do more than the bare minimum that is required of me. And it's something that makes me happy to do more often than not.

I don't really know if I'm submissive or not a lot of times. I don't define it in terms of being obedient or of following rules and regulations. It's more of an abstraction than a concrete thing. A few weeks ago, after a particularly rough patch in our relationship, Master looked at me and said, "You know, the mark of a true Master is in the undying devotion of his slave."

I tend to define it in unquantifiable terms such as those. Devotion, service, etc. But I may not be the best person to ask about this.

 

[YourCaptor]

What, you think you've met my "type"?

Great.

If my dom was to give up on Bondage clothes? Is that what your talking about? If he was to give up on bondage clothes and throw them all out (and yes this is very theoretical since neither of us owns any fetish or bondage wear) I would probably say hallelujah and fetch the torch. I hate fetish and bondage wear. SO UGLY.

But WHAT IN THE LIVING FUCK does my opinion on bondage wear have to do with my "type" that you have so sagely gleaned?

I really am curious what you think my "type" is. Really.

Ok maybe that was not the greatest example.

Hmm, it’s a difficult type to explain.

Basically the theory is, when something is freely available to you, you are just not that interested. You thrive more on the spontaneous stuff. Planed out scenes, when you are given a specific role or task, it doesn’t really do it for you. But say master is home watching TV or something, and you have the urge to do whatever submissive, you’ll be the best slave on the planet. Until of course he asked you if you want to do A or B, in which case you really don’t care and wish he would just get on with it and pick something.

I would also guess that when master says “not now”, it could really heighten your desire.

 

[Adakgirl]

I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone here by giving such a strong opinion on this topic and throwing out general rules that do not apply to everyone. I was wrong to do so. Honestly..my advice and opinions hold no real validity whatsoever in this thread nor in any other thread in this forum. I really don't know jack shit and I should not be posting with those who do. I will bow out of this forum completely now because it is obvious to me that I don't belong here and I never have. Be well all.

 

[JMohegan]

I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone here by giving such a strong opinion on this topic and throwing out general rules that do not apply to everyone. I was wrong to do so. Honestly..my advice and opinions hold no real validity whatsoever in this thread nor in any other thread in this forum. I really don't know jack shit and I should not be posting with those who do. I will bow out of this forum completely now because it is obvious to me that I don't belong here and I never have. Be well all.

What the heck are you blathering on about?

The last thing anyone wrote to you was: "Your view of what's 'fact' here is no more or less valid than anyone else's."

For god's sake, pull yourself together. Christ.

 

[JMohegan]

Y'know, I see it the other way around.

I am, at heart, the kind of person who always wonders if I'm doing enough for the people around me. I do tons of things for people that I really, really don't want to do just because I feel obligated. I'm the type of person who never says no to anything, and I tend to attract the kinds of people who take advantage of that.

On the other hand, I often worry if I do enough for the people I love, most especially my Master and Mistress. In the back of my mind, there's always this tiny voice whispering, "They deserve so much better than you."

I say these things to make it clear that I'm possibly looking at this the wrong way. It's just that, like eastern sun, looking at submission from an obedience model makes me feel like a failure or not submissive, period.

It's not that I don't do what they ask (usually). It's that they rarely ever ask. I don't know if it's that it really doesn't matter to them one way or the other that I don't adopt an "Anything you say, sir/ma'am" attitude toward them or if it's that they think I'm not capable of handling much, thus they don't saddle me with things.

And while I don't mind trying to do what they ask, the thing is, I do pretty much what everyone wants whether I like it or not. It's nothing special to me.

It's the going above and beyond part of service that speaks to me as a slave/pet/little girl/laundry bitch. It's not the way I behave with others. I'll do what other people want, as a rule, and probably grumble about it, but it's rare, because so many people ask a lot of me, that I ever have the time or the inclination to go out of my way to do things for them.

With Master and Mistress, I find that I want to do more than the bare minimum that is required of me. And it's something that makes me happy to do more often than not.

I don't really know if I'm submissive or not a lot of times. I don't define it in terms of being obedient or of following rules and regulations. It's more of an abstraction than a concrete thing. A few weeks ago, after a particularly rough patch in our relationship, Master looked at me and said, "You know, the mark of a true Master is in the undying devotion of his slave."

I tend to define it in unquantifiable terms such as those. Devotion, service, etc. But I may not be the best person to ask about this.

Intense devotion, willingness to "do more than the bare minimum that is required" - these things are not unique to power-based relationships. Even within power-based relationships, they are not unique to the s. The intensity of these traits has everything to do with love, personal commitment, and the intimate bond between two people, and nothing (per se) to do with the flavor of the relationship itself.

That's why I don't see them as distinguishing factors of the s role in power-based relationships.

However, if identifying obedience as the distinguishing factor of a power-based relationship somehow makes you feel like a personal failure, then that is definitely not a definition that you should embrace!

For the record, the "going above and beyond" abstraction that you describe is one that I do understand. Not just in the context of a personal relationship, but in other contexts as well. Friendships, family relationships, community service. The sense of pride and personal fulfillment that comes from voluntary dedication and emotional attachment, to a person or cause, is something to which I can very strongly relate.

 

[intothewoods]

This is an interesting conversation, though I officially have no idea what submission is anymore! Maybe thinking about it in terms of different models is useful since what works for one doesn't work for all, clearly!

I am not arguing with you here, I think you've made a valid point. . .

but I also want to point out that as soon as "obedience" is defined as the distinguishing factor in a power-based relationship, every cell in my body rebels. Every thought in my mind turns in another direction.

All I want to do is point out other equally relevant . . . no, much more important !! aspects of the relationship.

The idea that I would make my life's goal the practice of "obedience" is very, very disappointing.

Funny, hunh?

(I think the point I'm trying to make is that the totality of the experience is much richer, and more complicated, than any conceptual model.)

I don't feel like I succeed at being obedient all the time, but the desire to do better drives me. It's a work in progress. And it's the hard part of submission for me. I like a challenge. Actually, I kind of need a challenge, I think. Not so much that I'm constantly failing, but enough to present a challenge.

 

[BiBunny]

Intense devotion, willingness to "do more than the bare minimum that is required" - these things are not unique to power-based relationships. Even within power-based relationships, they are not unique to the s. The intensity of these traits has everything to do with love, personal commitment, and the intimate bond between two people, and nothing (per se) to do with the flavor of the relationship itself.

That's why I don't see them as distinguishing factors of the s role in power-based relationships.

However, if identifying obedience as the distinguishing factor of a power-based relationship somehow makes you feel like a personal failure, then that is definitely not a definition that you should embrace!

For the record, the "going above and beyond" abstraction that you describe is one that I do understand. Not just in the context of a personal relationship, but in other contexts as well. Friendships, family relationships, community service. The sense of pride and personal fulfillment that comes from voluntary dedication and emotional attachment, to a person or cause, is something to which I can very strongly relate.

I do see your point, and it makes sense. I think the reason I do see these things as distinguishing factors is that I only do these things for them and not everyone else. I know other people do the same things outside the context of power-based relationships, though.

I think I'm just kind of wired backwards.

 

[Victoria_Swims]

Very interesting thread.

I've been in a bdsm relationship for about 18 months now. It started out as a way that I could feed a need for the endorphin rush that I received during spanking/flogging and the thrill of being bound. My partner in this is a much more experienced, wiser and older man. Though it remained non-sexual at first things led to things and physical intimacy followed. Though our meetings have been sporadic and we both have other unrelated and separate lives, recently we have been meeting more often and the play is straying from the formula of: he ties me up, spanks me into painful bliss and then then we fuck - to include role-play with a strong master-slave dimension.

I'm not sure where the play is leading but I'm enjoying it. I really doubt that I could completely give myself over as a slave in real life, but the role playing literally gives me a buzz much like the rush I first experienced with spanking.

Anyway, it's powerful powerful stuff to me. Love the thread!

 

[Adakgirl]

What the heck are you blathering on about?

The last thing anyone wrote to you was: "Your view of what's 'fact' here is no more or less valid than anyone else's."

For god's sake, pull yourself together. Christ.

Fine fine JM...I still think what you said about trusting your PLY to address your wants needs and desires on his own timetable is the same thing as being willing to put his/hers before your own. Willing is the key word here, willing to trust is included in that.

 

[missginger2177]

Wow, interesting thread. After having sat here and read straight through from beginning to end, I don't feel like I understand anything better than I did going in. There were a couple comments that made me wary of continuing for fear I'd question myself and my own situation and end up committing suicide. However, I chose to soldier on and have come away with the two most important things I think I have gotten out of this.

1. The only time picking a label matters is in a public setting, such as trying to describe it to an outside party. One would imagine that if you are trying to describe something, you are using more than a one-word phrase to do so. Therefore, what does it matter what singular label you and your partner use with each other except to you?

2. This is the more important point, and I'm sad that most of you missed it. But, the word "blathering" is hilarious, particularly at one in the morning.

 

[Lady_Artemis]

Pfft! That sounds so ridiculous to me. Someone told you you're too outspoken, or stubborn, or independent to be a slave? Complete and utter nonsense, and I'll tell you why.

Dominance and submission are natural imperatives, not conscious choices; they are driven by instinct, not desire. Just as with dogs, an individual is born dominant or submissive. If the starving puppy nips at you when you take his food away does it make him any less of a submissive dog? Certainly not. Survival and self preservation are components of every animal's being, dominant and submissive alike.

A submissive does not submit because she wants to do it, but because she can't not do it. It is a natural impulse. The slave submits primarily to her own nature, however she requires an external focus for her submission, i.e. the dominant. Through the dominant she submits to herself by proxy.

So how will you know if you are a true submissive? It's simple really. If you are you will find your reason for being in service to others. Does this mean that you must submit to anyone and everyone? Certainly not. The submissive quality of any slave is introvert first, and extrovert second.

You are a source of power. The ultimate source of power in your life will always be you and nobody else. It doesn't matter how protective or strong your Master is, you are the driving force in your life. It is your right, your freedom to choose an appropriate individual to submit to, and in so doing you really have the power, the power to transfer your power to another. This is a very powerful act indeed, one that requires an iron will.

You do not have to submit your will to any tyrant who might take it in order to identify yourself as a submissive. In fact, you don't have to submit to anyone to be submissive, but I think you'll find that going through life without an extrovert focus for your submission will be very difficult indeed.

A dominant only has the right to determine how his own submissive should act, not another's. Those who go around questioning the devotion and submission of a slave who is not their own are insecure, ignorant beings indeed.

This is very well put. It's the way I want my submissive to feel under my care as a Domme.

 

[Stella_Omega]

*Stella backs out of the thread*

 

[00Syd]

Oh. My. God.

Re-reading this thread, and the thread that I linked to on the first page.... holy shit. That was only a little over a year ago, and already I am SO FAR past all of that! Amazing!

I think my rapid growth in that area mostly has to do with making a ton of friends IRL, and going to events, and having conversations with people face to face, and seeing first hand all of the myriad ways that this can work.

 

[eastern sun]

Oh. My. God.

Re-reading this thread, and the thread that I linked to on the first page.... holy shit. That was only a little over a year ago, and already I am SO FAR past all of that! Amazing!

I think my rapid growth in that area mostly has to do with making a ton of friends IRL, and going to events, and having conversations with people face to face, and seeing first hand all of the myriad ways that this can work.

What are you thinking these days?

 

[00Syd]

What are you thinking these days?

I think I'm comfortable.

This isn't the sort of thing I agonize about anymore, and in fact, I can't say I really think about it at all. I am Seb's pet, every once in a while something happens that makes me feel what I guess other people might call "more and more submissive," or something, but it just makes me feel more and more "his," which I guess might be the same thing. Not that it matters. The other day he forced me to suck his cock and then beg for it, and I did, and it was the first time that I've ever done something like that and genuinely felt it, which was a pretty amazing feeling. Sort of felt like I leveled up.

But I guess what's going on is that I just needed to be given the time to feel it on my own, and the matter just wasn't one that was going to be forced, no matter how much I tried to force it. So my instincts weren't wrong, I was just impatient to get to where I was going.

I really think that I mellowed out because I was able to see and experience and talk to other new couples in the scene, and the diversity of their dynamics really helped calm me down. Looking back, while I learned a ton of good, basic knowledge here on lit, I actually think that the lack of diversity on this board hindered me when I first started trying to apply what I had learned to myself.

Finding my local scene and making friends and getting involved there was the best thing that could have happened to me. Otherwise I would still be stuck in this echochamber, with no new ideas to break through the confusion.

 

[eastern sun]

I think I'm comfortable.

This isn't the sort of thing I agonize about anymore, and in fact, I can't say I really think about it at all. I am Seb's pet, every once in a while something happens that makes me feel what I guess other people might call "more and more submissive," or something, but it just makes me feel more and more "his," which I guess might be the same thing. Not that it matters. The other day he forced me to suck his cock and then beg for it, and I did, and it was the first time that I've ever done something like that and genuinly felt it, which was a pretty amazing feeling. Sort of felt like I leveled up.

But I guess what's going on is that I just needed to be given the time to feel it on my own, and the matter just wasn't one that was going to be forced, no matter how much I tried to force it. So my instincts weren't wrong, I was just impatient to get to where I was going.

I really think that I mellowed out because I was able to see and experience and talk to other new couples in the scene, and the diversity of their dynamics really helped calm me down. Looking back, while I learned a tom of good, basic knowledge herd on lit, I actually think that the lack of diversity on this board hindered me when I first started trying to apply what I had learned to myself.

Finding my local scene and making friends and getting involved there was the best thing that could have happened to me. Otherwise I would still be stuck in this echochamber, with no new ideas to break through the confusion.

I think it's impossible to know who you are until you experience yourself in relationship to other people.

 

[00Syd]

I think it's impossible to know who you are until you experience yourself in relationship to other people.

That seems about right.

 

[YourCaptor]

Sort of felt like I leveled up.

I love this feeling, when you know you've become better than you were. It makes me feel good.

It's hard to top things though, so constantly got to start new things.

I'm not competitive with others, but with myself, it's war.

 

[kiss_of_sin]

i too have grown so far from when i started this thread. including my ability to spell psychology correctly. lol. but i still enjoy reading it, and was surprised someone had revived it.