The selfish Dominant

[ethereal~minx]

A very interesting conversation. At the risk of sounding like a social scientist I think it's a mtter of balancing the macro (the full relationship) with the micro (the moment, the minute, the scene). Of course she knows I'm selfish. But she also knows I'm selfish for her. And that encompasses my desire to discipline her, to use her, and to comfort and even to pamper her. It may begin with "me", but it cannot be complete without "her." It's like trying to discern the begining of a circle.

this is what D/s is to me. i sooo agree, it may begin with "D", but cannot be complete without "s." !!!!!!!!!!

yes, and i love the way you put this "..I'm selfish. But she also knows I'm selfish for her. "

 

[Quint]

Pure,

Re: Kant. What if the act of using someone as a means to an end IS an end?

 

[Ebonyfire]

...I can get that feeling in myriad ways, some physical and some not, and I don't really care how I acheive it. It's a feeling of being served, honored, even revered, for me, for who I am. Period. Because, in certain specific and crucial ways, I kick ass. I totally rule.

Exactly, you took what I said and kicked it up another notch.

BAM!

 

[Pure]

Quint said

//Re: Kant. What if the act of using someone as a means to an end IS an end?//

Yes that's a paradox.

Kant did not approve of treating someone 'as a means only', but there are problems with this: can't I just buy something from the grocer without chatting him up? i.e., treat him only as a grocer?

There's some kind of valid intuitition in the directive, which really amounts to treating the other as a person and rational agent. The devil is in the details. But there may be inherent paradoxes: In similar terms to what you say, the problem: what is the person wants to be 'de-personalized' or even destroyed. (Note Owned SG speaking of being, at the master's direction, used by another for sex only.)

Variation: can you treat another as 'free' when they want to give up freedom (i.e., enter [real] slavery).


Kant's other famous directive is perhaps better: Act always on a maxim that you can will to be a universal law. This rules out murder and theft in that, for instance, you cannot rationally will that everyone go around murdering everyone else (including yourself).

Any thoughts on the 'de-personalization problem'?

 

[catalina_francisco]

that is definitely one way to look at it Catalina (gosh i love it when i can stay up late and just chat all nite like this)....but i guess it all comes down to WHY you submit in the first place. if you submit because you know it will satisfy you to satisfy someone else, or if you submit simply because you are alive and that is your natural reaction/response to the world. not because you WANT to, but because it's who you are.

yes, it's a need of mine to please others, so when i please someone, usually, i will find fulfillment in that. getting what i want. but that is not my motivation for submitting. my submission is not about what i want, it's about who i am. there have been many times i have submitted when i did not wish to, and when it was very unpleasant for me in every way imagineable. submitting is not something i can control...it's not something i can NOT do, if i don't want to. just like i can't will myself into growing a penis (giggling my bum off over here), i can't will myself into not giving in to someone who wishes to use me or make use of me in some way. so i don't think i fall under the "i scratch you, you scratch me" category, although i do see how for many that could be the reality deep down.

As usual I can relate to where you are coming from and find it very much where I am at in many ways. I often submit to those things I do not wish to, and at times make my skin crawl, but in that I find I also derive some perverse pleasure, so much I crave it. To me, on the one hand I am submitting to his will because I have to whether I like it or not, but on the other hand I find the fact I have to and do not get my own desires respected and catered to is also a source of fulfilment for me.

This is in part because I am answering his need and cannot feel comfortable having my needs catered too over his, but is also because I simply get off on the power and control issues, and the humiliation in certain areas where I have to overcome my own self to give myself in submission to his will. So then I come up with which is my primary desire, and do I subconciously find myself choosing the opposite to what I know he is going to demand just so I can get my perverse pleasure at being asked to do the seemingly impossible and wallow in my misery, discomfort, shame, and/or disgust while also revelling in the challenge and my hopeful success. Oh so too confusing at times.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

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[ownedsubgal]

As usual I can relate to where you are coming from and find it very much where I am at in many ways. I often submit to those things I do not wish to, and at times make my skin crawl, but in that I find I also derive some perverse pleasure, so much I crave it. To me, on the one hand I am submitting to his will because I have to whether I like it or not, but on the other hand I find the fact I have to and do not get my own desires respected and catered to is also a source of fulfilment for me.

This is in part because I am answering his need and cannot feel comfortable having my needs catered too over his, but is also because I simply get off on the power and control issues, and the humiliation in certain areas where I have to overcome my own self to give myself in submission to his will. So then I come up with which is my primary desire, and do I subconciously find myself choosing the opposite to what I know he is going to demand just so I can get my perverse pleasure at being asked to do the seemingly impossible and wallow in my misery, discomfort, shame, and/or disgust while also revelling in the challenge and my hopeful success. Oh so too confusing at times.

Catalina

lol, yes but i think submissives in general tend to be confusing...'tis part of our charm. lol

i can very much relate to submitting to something my Master wants of me that is very difficult or unpleasant...but when it comes to Daddy, because i love him soooo much, i never DON'T want to submit to him. regardless of what that may entail. i always want to please him. when i spoke of times i do not wish to submit, i'm speaking of just situations that are bad/negative, often abusive. from doing the homework of other kids at school as a young child, to giving in physically to grotesque, cruel strange men who wish to use me, all throughout my life. saying no, refusing someone, is just not in my make-up. it's not that deep down i always WANT to serve someone because of the pleasure of serving, there is not always pleasure in pleasing someone else, especially if they are hurting you, so that is why i say i do not submit out of any personal need or desire of my own. in short, i submit because it is impossible for me to do anything else.

 

[Pure]

OwnedSG said

//now as for the idea of serving better or pleasing better because one is getting what they want, personally i would question the submissiveness of someone who served not out of a need to serve and please others, but rather out of a need to please themselves. i submit because it is my nature, it is my instinct, it is who i am. i will not submit any better/more because someone is doing something for me (besides the fact that as i explained above, someone doing things just for me does not make me happy), and i will not submit any worse/less because i am not happy. i get my pleasure from pleasing, not from trying to be pleased.//

In one way, I see this 'natural' approach, as shown in many analogies from the religions: the river (soul) flows toward the sea
(God); a drop of water rejoins the ocean, as in Vedanta.

OTOH, leaving aside the sould or 'overself', most peoples' "I" does not comfortably or 'naturally' efface itself. The 'struggles' reported by many of the saint's evidence this. In particular there is the expression 'the dark night of the soul' (John). That's what I find lacking in some of the too-rosey or 'symbiotic' descriptions.

OSG, you used the example of wanting Chinese food, when Master wants Mexican. Obviously not a perfect example of the point. I think you have to use something more fundamental: he wishes only to fuck you in the ass and ignore your clit and pussy. Or, his wishes for you not to come for the next couple years. Or he wants you to give up speaking and reading for a year, so as to reflect on needs and service without distraction.

Iow, and it's an old theme, but I continue to hold that genuine 'submission' is exacted when it ain't easy and/or is resisted by this "I" this everyday 'nature' (who I am) that we take to be us.

 

[ownedsubgal]

OwnedSG said

//now as for the idea of serving better or pleasing better because one is getting what they want, personally i would question the submissiveness of someone who served not out of a need to serve and please others, but rather out of a need to please themselves. i submit because it is my nature, it is my instinct, it is who i am. i will not submit any better/more because someone is doing something for me (besides the fact that as i explained above, someone doing things just for me does not make me happy), and i will not submit any worse/less because i am not happy. i get my pleasure from pleasing, not from trying to be pleased.//

In one way, I see this 'natural' approach, as shown in many analogies from the religions: the river (soul) flows toward the sea
(God); a drop of water rejoins the ocean, as in Vedanta.

OTOH, leaving aside the sould or 'overself', most peoples' "I" does not comfortably or 'naturally' efface itself. The 'struggles' reported by many of the saint's evidence this. In particular there is the expression 'the dark night of the soul' (John). That's what I find lacking in some of the too-rosey or 'symbiotic' descriptions.

OSG, you used the example of wanting Chinese food, when Master wants Mexican. Obviously not a perfect example of the point. I think you have to use something more fundamental: he wishes only to fuck you in the ass and ignore your clit and pussy. Or, his wishes for you not to come for the next couple years. Or he wants you to give up speaking and reading for a year, so as to reflect on needs and service without distraction.

Iow, and it's an old theme, but I continue to hold that genuine 'submission' is exacted when it ain't easy and/or is resisted by this "I" this everyday 'nature' (who I am) that we take to be us.

Pure, true submission is not easy, imo. something being natural does not make it easy. i liken it to the struggles my parents had growing up in the place they did at the time they did, and being african american. they were denied many things, abused by many, basically faced many hardships solely because of their skin color, because of something they had no control over. well, my submission/submissiveness is something i have no control over. it is me, it is natural, it is who i am...but that doesn't automatically make it easy or pleasant to be this way.

the things you mentioned...not being allowed to cum for 2 years (which with me would probably occur naturally)...only being used anally...not being able to speak or read for a year....to comply to any of these things would not be a struggle for me. it is never a struggle for me to submit. it is never difficult for me to submit. that doesn't mean that i find everything my Master wishes of me or that anyone could wish of me easy or tolerable...not hardly...but the reality is that i cannot NOT submit. even if i do not WANT to submit, with every fiber of my being...i will submit. there's no choice in the matter. and that has nothing to do with my being a slave, and everything to do with my being a submissive.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I find this to be a very interesting and learning thread for me, I have read many opinions that are very interesting and have enriched my own view on things.

It is easy to see the selfishness of a Dominant; their needs are being answered by their partner. But the selfishness of a Submissive is harder to see. There is a contradiction in terms in being submissive. Submissives need to submit, they find fulfilment by submitting and giving service to their partner. This is a selfless act, but they are driven by a selfish need.

What I have seen so far by most entries is that there is a selfish motive, the fulfilment of your own needs, but that it is enriched by other feelings. What seems to make a successful transition to the lifestyle seems to be the realisation that selfishness is there but that you also need other emotions and motivations.

I welcome any comments on the original question of course, but I would also like to know where you put the limit as a Dominant. When do you consider the needs of the submissive to be of such importance that you temporary forget about your own needs. And I am not talking here about health issues or safety issues I think those are clear. But there is a lot of grey area. So when does the Dominant decide that the needs of the sub are more important then his own needs, what are the criteria you use. And to the Submissive the question is how do you feel when the Dominant puts your needs above theirs?

I would also welcome the switch standpoint on this since they are on both extremes of the spectrum they might have a different view.

Francisco.

 

[Desdemona]

Pure, true submission is not easy, imo. something being natural does not make it easy. i liken it to the struggles my parents had growing up in the place they did at the time they did, and being african american. they were denied many things, abused by many, basically faced many hardships solely because of their skin color, because of something they had no control over. well, my submission/submissiveness is something i have no control over. it is me, it is natural, it is who i am...but that doesn't automatically make it easy or pleasant to be this way.

the things you mentioned...not being allowed to cum for 2 years (which with me would probably occur naturally)...only being used anally...not being able to speak or read for a year....to comply to any of these things would not be a struggle for me. it is never a struggle for me to submit. it is never difficult for me to submit. that doesn't mean that i find everything my Master wishes of me or that anyone could wish of me easy or tolerable...not hardly...but the reality is that i cannot NOT submit. even if i do not WANT to submit, with every fiber of my being...i will submit. there's no choice in the matter. and that has nothing to do with my being a slave, and everything to do with my being a submissive.

All I can say is I'm glad you have a good match in your master.

I will readily admit to having a selfish or self-interested streak and yet, I can honestly say that I'm a natural submissive. I have done things for other people and put my own needs last all my life. I'm uncomfortable having someone do something for me. I'm most comfortable taking care of the needs of others. And yes, I totally identify with the statement that submission is not easy. I have done things I didn't want to do, things that were difficult simply because they were what my Master wanted from me.

However, at some point, I learned that in order to be the best submissive I can be, I had to learn to take care of me. I had to learn that its ok that I have needs too and that I deserve to have those needs met (I'm not talking about wants here... they are something else entirely). I had to learn what my limits are and how to respectfully communicate them with my dominant. I have learned that there are times when it is appropriate for someone else to do things for me... for instance, if I'm sick or when I was recuperating from surgery. Taking care of myself or allowing someone else to help me or pamper me occasionally doesn't make me any less submissive.

I don't think its a bad thing for a submissive to be a little selfish or self-interested. I am very much aware that, at times, submitting gives me a sense of accomplishment and it gives me a sense of peace. It meets needs for me just as it meets needs for Master.

 

[Croctden]

A lot of this depends of you definition of selfish. If you make it broad enough then every action you take is selfish. If you altruistically help someone, you are really doing it to avoid guilt or to feel good about yourself. In that sense, yes a sub is selfish, they get something out of the relationship or they would leave. But on a more common scale, the sub does not say to the Dom “I want to do this and even though I know you don’t, we are going to.” The Dom can. I like that.

I welcome any comments on the original question of course, but I would also like to know where you put the limit as a Dominant. When do you consider the needs of the submissive to be of such importance that you temporary forget about your own needs. And I am not talking here about health issues or safety issues I think those are clear. But there is a lot of grey area. So when does the Dominant decide that the needs of the sub are more important then his own needs, what are the criteria you use. And to the Submissive the question is how do you feel when the Dominant puts your needs above theirs?

Francisco.

If her grandfather died, I'll hold her. If she has a truly bad crick in her neck I'll rub it out (only I should cause her pain). Those are probably not the type of answers you want.

I do want her to be happy. I'll make sure she is not stressing out. If she is I'll make some time, but that more good boyfriend behavior than BDSM issues.

When we are scening, no. That is my selfish time if you will. Her needs should be met by the act of submitting. I won't abuse her, if she uses her safeword it ends, but I'm not thinking I need to do this or that for her this time.

 

[Solitude]

Exactly, you took what I said and kicked it up another notch.

BAM!

*laughs*

Here I thought the E was for Ebony, but perhaps I was wrong.

 

[Pure]

Desdemona said in part


I'm most comfortable taking care of the needs of others. And yes, I totally identify with the statement that submission is not easy. I have done things I didn't want to do, things that were difficult simply because they were what my Master wanted from me.

However, at some point, I learned that in order to be the best submissive I can be, I had to learn to take care of me. I had to learn that its ok that I have needs too and that I deserve to have those needs met (I'm not talking about wants here... they are something else entirely). I had to learn what my limits are and how to respectfully communicate them with my dominant. I have learned that there are times when it is appropriate for someone else to do things for me... for instance, if I'm sick or when I was recuperating from surgery.

Those sound like good points to me. Probably --what do you think--they can be explained in terms of a 'tool' analogy**:
One doesn't leave a prized saw out in the rain, or fail to keep it dry and oiled. The horse that pulls the plough may need surgery and recovery time. What you say--as in these cases--is not fundamentally self regarding, since the larger 'end' is to serve.

OTOH, consider a prized race horse with certain health vulnerabilities. The horse 'serves' the owner, and does what the jockey directs, yet requires lots of attention, heated barn, daily rub downs etc. Perhaps you'd agree that at some point, the horse is the primary one being served (like some divas).

In short, the 'master' of a delicately constituted 'slave' may become primarily involved in serving her (him), meeting her special health needs, etc.

J.

**Even the employee analogy yields the same result. A valuable employee is best treated well, e.g., given leave when sick. For him/her to take time off for sickness might well be with continued service to the company, in mind.

 

[Justina123]

Croc hit it in on the head. When we are scening, that is not a time when Sir "comes first."

There are times in our relationship when he puts me first- like when my teenager was in a car accident and we were at the emergency room. Funny thing, even then I was slightly uncomfortable deep inside that he was being so solicitous of me, this little fear that the change in role would somehow damage our relationship...but it didn't, to the contrary, it strengthened my love and respect for Him and He says being my support and protector in a situation like that pleases Him as well.

But when sceneing? Heavens, no, don't listen to my moans or groans....!

- justina

 

[Desdemona]

Desdemona said in part


I'm most comfortable taking care of the needs of others. And yes, I totally identify with the statement that submission is not easy. I have done things I didn't want to do, things that were difficult simply because they were what my Master wanted from me.

However, at some point, I learned that in order to be the best submissive I can be, I had to learn to take care of me. I had to learn that its ok that I have needs too and that I deserve to have those needs met (I'm not talking about wants here... they are something else entirely). I had to learn what my limits are and how to respectfully communicate them with my dominant. I have learned that there are times when it is appropriate for someone else to do things for me... for instance, if I'm sick or when I was recuperating from surgery.

Those sound like good points to me. Probably --what do you think--they can be explained in terms of a 'tool' analogy**:
One doesn't leave a prized saw out in the rain, or fail to keep it dry and oiled. The horse that pulls the plough may need surgery and recovery time. What you say--as in these cases--is not fundamentally self regarding, since the larger 'end' is to serve.

OTOH, consider a prized race horse with certain health vulnerabilities. The horse 'serves' the owner, and does what the jockey directs, yet requires lots of attention, heated barn, daily rub downs etc. Perhaps you'd agree that at some point, the horse is the primary one being served (like some divas).

In short, the 'master' of a delicately constituted 'slave' may become primarily involved in serving her (him), meeting her special health needs, etc.

J.

**Even the employee analogy yields the same result. A valuable employee is best treated well, e.g., given leave when sick. For him/her to take time off for sickness might well be with continued service to the company, in mind.

Pure, any of your analagies work for me. The fundamental concept being that if I am to serve to the best of my abilities, I have to be as healthy as possible; physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. I can see why you would say that self care in this example is not "self-regarding".

In fact, I see the effort that Snooze puts into our relationship. He works hard to ensure that I have certain needs met, and I, in turn would do anything in my power to serve Him.

I can also agree that it could become possible for the Master to become involved in serving the slave in the case of special health needs. However, in order for the D/s relationship to remain healthy, the dominant would need to be very much aware of the possibility of secondary gain. (For those unfamiliar with the term, secondary gain occurs when someone uses special health needs as a manipulative tool to gain attention or to obtain special favors.)

 

[Netzach]

Taking care of isn't serving.

While it may seem otherwise at times, I'm sure all you people with kids would agree that taking care of them is an odd mix of pampering, discipline and giving in to that person's way in certain ways and not in others.

I personally am not threatened by fostering the autonomy of a bottom who has a poor sense of autonomy. If I happen to make myself obsolete....mazel tov.

I know Pure cringes every time I bring in the parental analogy but we've been through this. If most people who bring in the Parent/nurturing dynamic want to be tender Daddy dear I'm more an agent of tough, imaginitive, ersatz love, Medea meets Mary Poppins.

It's very very very unlikely that a little push toward standing up for oneself should lead to no longer wanting a Domme. I'll jump off that bridge should I ever come to it. Worst case scenario, I have a happier and more able to cope bottom who adores me for the panoramic vistas I have opened.

OSG, Catalina, I'm sure this annoying test has been foisted upon you both myriad times. I apologize in advance.

What if your respective masters said "you know, I want six months off, this is making me worn out or depressed or whatever. Telling you what to do is too much damn work."

Catalina alluded to a perverse need for the difficulty of submission, isn't there something self-motivating about that desire? I guess what I'm saying is that wanting to be forced to do increasingly difficult and degrading things is as much a self-motivated desire as wanting to be sexually pleasured and be able to decide where to go.

And Kant minions would have to concede that treating someone who is happier as a slave as autonomous is not respecting that autonomy, that personhood. I don't think you'd meet that many people actively desiring a chance to be subserviant in Kant's day, it was all too easy to fulfill, no?

Isn't saying you've read Kant kind of like saying you've read Ulysses or Gravity's Rainbow, or Proust, one of those things you might think you have read but nobody ever may have really *read?*

 

[Pure]

N said, I know Pure cringes every time I bring in the parental analogy but we've been through this. If most people who bring in the Parent/nurturing dynamic want to be tender Daddy dear I'm more an agent of tough, imaginitive, ersatz love, Medea meets Mary Poppins.

Maybe I wasn't clear or my views have shifted slightly. I don't think daddy dom's or mommy domme's are doing much dominating. those phrase are to connote extreme focus on the needs of the sub; self-said altruism; emphasis on 'nurturing' the sub and helping him/her to 'self actualize.'

I think, however, the stern daddies of the Torah and Tanakh are fine doms, from Yawveh** to Abraham to Jephthah. I like also the emphasis--not seen here often, in the age of 'let's discuss this and prepare you and debrief you'--on inscrutability; Job's Lord is not to be categorized as subject to good and evil categories, i.e., He is not to be indicted for inflicting 'evil' (harm) in Job's terms.

In short, I mainly have trouble with the parent analogy from Spock (Dr.) onward because sensitive, 'democratic' parents are not really running the show (which might agree with some kids, but isn't really 'ruling' or dominating or commanding them).

=======

**Iirc, isn't He the fellow that sends the bears out of the bushes to eat the kids that disrespect the prophet?

 

[zipman]

I think it all depends, on the situation, the people involved, their motivations for doing things, etc.

There are times when I can be quite an altruistic Dom, to the outside eye. I love giving my sub pleasure, and she will orgasm several times before I do once. To someone else, it would seem that I am too focused on her pleasure, except that watching her go through orgasm after orgasm turns me on and gives me pleasure.

The question becomes, who am I doing it for? The answer is both.

Of course I appear more "Domly" on the nights when I lube up and enter her while she's sound asleep with no regard for her pleasure, just my release.

It's about balance, and to deconstruct each act is an effort in futility. It's about the forest, not the trees!

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's very very very unlikely that a little push toward standing up for oneself should lead to no longer wanting a Domme. I'll jump off that bridge should I ever come to it. Worst case scenario, I have a happier and more able to cope bottom who adores me for the panoramic vistas I have opened.

OSG, Catalina, I'm sure this annoying test has been foisted upon you both myriad times. I apologize in advance.

What if your respective masters said "you know, I want six months off, this is making me worn out or depressed or whatever. Telling you what to do is too much damn work."

Catalina alluded to a perverse need for the difficulty of submission, isn't there something self-motivating about that desire? I guess what I'm saying is that wanting to be forced to do increasingly difficult and degrading things is as much a self-motivated desire as wanting to be sexually pleasured and be able to decide where to go.

Not annoying N, though for us it is highly unlikely. Firstly, we both knew what we wanted before we met, so were quite sure of what we were getting into, especially Master as he had already been 24/7 before. Secondly, it is the last thing which would depress or wear him out as it is the one thing which keeps him going when all other aspects of life may get him down. Thirdly, he doesn't have to tell me much at all in regard of what to do. Most things are understood and/or part of our rules, so I just do them as they arise....some others arise in everyday living and are dealt with easily then...and he loves that he has the right to tell me what to do. If he did make such a statement, we would talk about it, find out what was causing the problem, and if he still needed time out, I would obey and we would get through it together as we do most things now.

Fortunately, like many others I met, one of the things which attracted him to me was my strength and ability to successfully run my life alone with 2 children for nearly 16 years (and before my 1st marriage and children I had also worked and lived alone by choice for many years) and most of that parenting time, living below the poverty line. It showed him I could survive if need be, make my own decisions, succeed where many fail, pull myself out of the cycle and turn it around, but also I had made an informed choice and decision to become slave to the right Master. It was this knowledge that I did not need him to run my life, but would give him this control, which made my submission that much more precious to him.

As you may have noticed, I did raise the issue that my submission is also self serving in that it feeds that part of me which also feeds his need to dominate. I see it as symbiotic for both of us, each of us getting our needs met even when most would not understand how, and even in the low moments which all people encounter, we are as one working on our future together, striving to understand each other even more completely than we already do, and always with a need and commitment to remain true to both our D/s relationship and our love.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

On "I [dom]want six months off."

Catalina said,

// If he did make such a statement, we would talk about it, find out what was causing the problem, and if he still needed time out, I would obey and we would get through it together as we do most things now.//

Let's sharpen this, a little. There is no problem. The Dom/me simply says, "This is my final order to you. Though you may remain a friend, you are never to submit**, especially in a sexualized way, to anyone again; you've passed the point where that's good for you and you need something else; you're to enter only sexual relationships that are--so far as possible--free of sadistic, dominant, masochistic or subordinate elements; free of 'power play' or transfer of power; where no one 'tops' 'commands' 'dominates' 'controls' or inflicts eroticized pain or humiliation on the other. Of course you may have those thoughts and impulses for some time, but you are not to act them out any more."

I believe this is the reverse side of the paradox of honoring someone's freedom in their choice of slavery. This is the question of a slave/sub/bottom following through on their pledge of total obedience and service, and 'master knows best.'

**Added: That is, the sub is, after (and other than) following this last order, never again to submit to anyone.

 

[Peter2002]

Life needs to be flexible...

Even in the most defined and constrained circumstances.

 

[Desdemona]

On "I [dom]want six months off."

Catalina said,

// If he did make such a statement, we would talk about it, find out what was causing the problem, and if he still needed time out, I would obey and we would get through it together as we do most things now.//

Let's sharpen this, a little. There is no problem. The Dom/me simply says, "This is my final order to you. Though you may remain a friend, you are never to submit, especially in a sexualized way, to anyone again; you've passed the point where that's good for you and you need something else; you're to enter only sexual relationships that are--so far as possible--free of sadistic, dominant, masochistic or subordinate elements; free of 'power play' or transfer of power; where no one 'tops' 'commands' 'dominates' 'controls' or inflicts eroticized pain or humiliation on the other. Of course you may have those thoughts and impulses for some time, but you are not to act them out any more."

I believe this is the reverse side of the paradox of honoring someone's freedom in their choice of slavery. This is the question of a slave/sub/bottom following through on their pledge of total obedience and service, and 'master knows best.'

By obeying the order not to submit, wouldn't the sub be submitting?

My head hurts now. LOL

 

[Pure]

Of Subs and Self



30 JULY 2003

DOMINATRIX SEEMS PREOCCUPIED


RENO, NV—Local submissive Jack Traden announced Monday that his dominatrix, Mistress Varla of DV8, seems to have more on her mind than his humiliation.

[pictur of JT]
Above: Traden pauses outside DV8 after another disappointing meeting with Mistress Varla (below left).
"Mistress Varla hasn't been herself lately," Traden said. "Last week, she commanded me to lick her boots clean, but when I finished, she just stared off into space."

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[catalina_francisco]

Pure the question you ask is an impossibility. If you are Dominant or sub or switch if engulfes your entire being. Catalina would try of course but she just could not comply which such a command.

It can be compared with the Pope saying, you are a good catholic, homosexuality is an illness and I order you from now on to be cured. You are "straight" ( I wonder who thought up this word anyway) and going to behave heterosexual from now on.

Would I give this order it would prove that I do not have her best interest in my mind, nor mine for that matter. I would say to any submissive who gets an order that is similar to this to step out of the relationship and look for another partner.

To temporarily step outside the behaviour patterns we need to be healhy individuals for the mental health of one of the partners, I consider to be normal and an essential part of the relationship.

I will put it even more clearer, would Catalina now or ever in the future decide that she simply could not be a submissive/slave anymore then I would break the relationship. Even being enormously in love with her, It would be a simple impossibility to live a vanilla life for me, as it is for Catalina. To clarify, she would no longer be the person I fell in love with, as nor would I be who she fell in love with if I wanted to step off the treadmill of our life.

Francisco.