The significance of "Sir" or similar

[MeekMe]

It's late so I didn't read the thread, but here's my take:

In my day job I spent hours addressing people as "sir" and "ma'am" I would never address my SO that way. It feels impersonal. We use nicknames or our real names. They mean more than any honorific that could be applied to anyone that felt they deserve the title. The names we use have meaning on a very personal level. Generic "sirs" and "masters" won't do.

 

[LucianDevine]

It's late so I didn't read the thread, but here's my take:

In my day job I spent hours addressing people as "sir" and "ma'am" I would never address my SO that way. It feels impersonal. We use nicknames or our real names. They mean more than any honorific that could be applied to anyone that felt they deserve the title. The names we use have meaning on a very personal level. Generic "sirs" and "masters" won't do.

I agree with you one-hundred percent. I work with people all day long, and I say the words "sir" and "ma'am" so often, that they have basically lost all meaning to me. It is still a sign of respect to me, but only so far as trying to set a good example of how to treat your coworkers.

The same holds true, for me, in this context as well. Unless you are able to live the lifestyle 24/7, which is impossible for most people these days, I just don't think it's necessary.

When my Mistress and I are playing or doing a scene I gladly call her Mistress, and enjoy the conscious effort it takes to do so. When she asks me to take out the trash or help her with some other random household chore though, I don't need to add the word "mistress" for her to know that I respect her.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[IrisAlthea]

Again, this isn't about terminology. I don't care if they think it's the stupidest thing in the known world that I want them to say. Do it, or stop wasting our time.

This way of thinking I can totally get, from either side of it.
Because I said so, is not an invitation to discuss. It's information about what I want to be called.

If you ask someone to call you something, like "Sir" or "Queen of all Marshmallow Fluff with Tassels on Her Tits" and tell them it is to show respect though, I think it's understandable if they give feedback on how respectful or not the term is to them.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[seela]

This way of thinking I can totally get, from either side of it.
Because I said so, is not an invitation to discuss. It's information about what I want to be called.

If you ask someone to call you something, like "Sir" or "Queen of all Marshmallow Fluff with Tassels on Her Tits" and tell them it is to show respect though, I think it's understandable if they give feedback on how respectful or not the term is to them.

Yup, I can get this too and this is what I meant when I said honorifics would work as a mild excercise in humiliation to me. I'll do it if it's asked of me, but I won't volunteer it and the word won't carry any special tones of respect to me.

 

[Malich]

I've never been comfortable with master, not sure why. Maybe something to do with my upbringing I still feel my partners should be strong, independent women regardless of our sexual kinks. That being said I do like the respectfulness of being called Sir by a partner. That being said, if I met the right sub, and the relationship evolved to the point where we both felt comfortable with master, I could change my mind.

However, that then means I am less happy being called Sir by random subs I meet in chatrooms / munches / etc. It feels like they're taking something away from the relationship I have with my sub. I know there's a difference between Sir and sir... but I can't not hear the capital letter I've tried asking not to be called it but you end up insulting some and confusing others and in places with an ever changing flow of people it becomes a never ending cycle of telling people why!

Just don't call me Daddy!

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Malich]

To be fair, it's rare I get called sir in a day to day context my females I come across. In shops up here it's either nothing or "love", "Dear", the usual northern terms

Trying to remember the last time I was called sir by anyone not in military or police uniforms and its been a long time!

 

[LallyH]

I left another chat site because they insisted that all those identifying as subs had to use Sir if responding to a post by someone identifying as dominant. They said that it was to show the respect that should always be due to from one side to the other. I thought it was a ludicrous idea and said so, got roundly attacked for it and left It was a fair enough reaction I suppose - that was the rule they wanted to play by and who was I to criticise?

I will only use an honorific title if it is requested of me by someone I am in a D/s relationship with, because the fact that the relationship exists means that the respect is there anyway. Like Seela, I would do it because I was asked to - it's not something that *does* anything for me as an act in itself.

I think it would be embarrassing all round if I started calling my Dom friends Sir

 

[Malich]

It would for me certainly

 

[Alanstoy]

Calling someone Sir can also be done just for the fun of the occasion.

My SO suggested I register and add our two pennies worth, we usually browse Lit. together for ideas but for once I have a different perspective on something. Not often but sometimes he takes complete control, he loves making me do stupid things and I adore being tied up and kept as close to an orgasm as possible for ages. So we're occasional but enthusiastic amateurs. Sometimes he makes me call him Sir so that when I forget he has the perfect excuse to give me a spank on the bare bottom with a wooden ruler, which sound harmless but stings like hell. Of course, because I don't often have to do this I keep forgetting, so I keep getting a spank. For me having to call him Sir means I'm in for a very unpleasant spanking but a very special teasing afterwards with very sensitive bottom. No pain, no gain, I guess.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[LallyH]

I love those northern terms. I wish there was something like that in the south.

I really want one day to be called 'Duck' or 'duckie' or something. So sweet.

Thinking about it, we have a variety up here

Love (everywhere), hun (Liverpool), lovey (Warrington), duck (Sheffield)...

I'm sure there's more

 

[CailinDana1]

Hi, I'm new to the forum but read this thread and wanted to add my tuppence worth!
I agree with most of the replies on here, it's such a personal and individual thing and the key phrase is communication.
I have only ever called one man 'Meister' in my life as a sub and we were together a long time and the trust grew to the point I was comfortable with that term. It wasn't an every day use of the word and I agree strongly with Netzach that when we were 'in scene' I would call him whatever he told me to. (Bar Papa, I just cannot get my head around that!)
I would never call a Dom/me I didn't know Sir or Ma'am, rather would ask there surname and address them as Mr or Ms....
As an aside I lived in Newcastle UK for a wee while when everyone called me 'pet'. After experiencing a small degree of pet play I had to stifle a chuckle a fair few times!

 

[Betticus]

I wanted to bring this up for discussion because I just had a recent sub bring this up to me. One of the rules I had given her was to address me as Sir (it was actually Master but I know how uncomfortable that makes some people). Her comment was that her saying it does not show any kind of authority to me. In this case, I kind of let it pass because she kind of was not the best submissive in the world anyhow and was not expecting it last (she had potential and I had hope I could help her bring it out).

I wanted to ask what everyone else thought of the topic. Do others believe it's significant? Or are there more that are of her opinion that it does not prove/show anything for the dominant?

It really depends on the people involved and how they perceive using labels and what psychological impact the label has for them. Outside of bdsm the label of Sir sets the dynamic between people at a certain level. In the military it denotes respect and authority such as with a non commissioned officer greeting or acknowledging a commissioned officer. In business it reinforces the professional relationship. With bdsm it is open for interpretation and has meaning if all involved are in agreement with what it means.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[IMOnTheEdge]

I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience, but it seems to me that using "Sir" is a sign of respect to any dominant that you might have occasion to speak with. It acknowledges both roles and is polite -- maybe it's a "girls raised in the South" kind of thing. We are conscious of our roles. "Master" on the other hand signifies a commitment and should be reserved for those who have earned respect and trust on a deeper level. Note I said "earned" ... not something that is given easily just because it is expected or asked for, though neither should it be withheld if that commitment is present. Personally, calling someone "Master" or "Sir" is the least of the submissive behaviors I would expect to be asked for...

 

[Netzach]

Ok, I dithered and dithered over this, but on thinking about it feel I can learn something here from others.

With reference to the bit bolder I think I'd reframe the whole scenario depending on the nature of your arrangement/ relationship. I think something that struck me from my position is that I have never stayed in a relationship where as a person I do not feel respected. A ltr broke up because of this, and my more casual arrangements pre marriage were, I felt, mutually respectful.

The phrase bolder sat with me through today and gave me pause for thought as for how I would feel if some one had felt and not communicate with me, especially after what I had felt about the not communicated the 'sit' stuff earlier.


Netzach, I think hit the money when she said its not about titles, and brought it back to roles and respect. But bringing it to arrangements or relationships and mutual respect this bolded section might infact be something broader still for me, something that I would have been unhappy to have proceeded with whatever arrangement knowing the other party didn't really think it had legs.

Obviously, as a married woman, this is not an issue I face I meadiately, but out of bdsm were a friend to say this to me about a potential relationship or fwb arrangement I'd tell them I thought from my point of view they had poor 'relationship courtesy'.

Are things very different in the bdsm world?

Let me make it clear where I'm coming from, and then you tell me about relationship courtesy and communication. Because in my experience, saying one thing, repeatedly, often and in a million ways, and then doing the opposite, is kind of crap in those departments, isn't it?

I'm coming from being a dominant woman, the least represented in mixed BDSM groupings, not because we don't exist but because things are constantly made into some flavor of shitty for us in the mixed community.

I'm coming from a LOT of interest, and a lot of it insisting it's there to serve me, when it's there to serve itself. I'm coming from being viewed as some kind of whip with nice tits, some kind of fetish soup kitchen for the under-beaten. No. I'm coming from being fooled and burned on this at least a few times, though fewer than most. Why?

Because I don't play the funny little games. I screen. I test. I'm perfectly fine disappointing people, because people have burned me out to a point where it's about me or go away. That IS my orientation. I give back a lot, an endless lot with people I go the distance with, but I don't waste my time.

I drop things on the floor and if they're not picked up, I am wasting my time. I know this because I've wasted it. I've been hurt by men and women alike who are submissive until I actually God forbid need them for something real and then the game is suddenly over.

I am not here to be a shrink and figure out what a submissive's theory of linguistics and respect is (though that can be interesting and fantastic, and it's not that I'm not interested, I'm just not interested UNTIL I see some proof of concept re: submission.)

Everyone talks about Dominants earning trust and nobody thinks that this works in reverse whatsoever. If you are actually Dominant, not just satisfied with sadistic sex and a little whiff of control as a condiment, you're having your energy sucked and sapped by every exchange that promises submission but can't even follow through with passing the salt if you say "pass the salt."

I am in this environment and this context to be served. If that opportunity doesn't make your little heart beat fast enough to do as you are told (unless you're having REAL trouble or I haven't provided the tools or info it takes) then I'm serving your desires, and I don't swing that way.

 

[Netzach]

I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience, but it seems to me that using "Sir" is a sign of respect to any dominant that you might have occasion to speak with. It acknowledges both roles and is polite -- maybe it's a "girls raised in the South" kind of thing. We are conscious of our roles. "Master" on the other hand signifies a commitment and should be reserved for those who have earned respect and trust on a deeper level. Note I said "earned" ... not something that is given easily just because it is expected or asked for, though neither should it be withheld if that commitment is present. Personally, calling someone "Master" or "Sir" is the least of the submissive behaviors I would expect to be asked for...

Isn't that generational rather than gender related? I know someone who uses Sir/Ma'am for everyone he doesn't know, including people doing service jobs for him, certainly everyone older than he is. I think it's actually kind of a class act, but it's just his manner and if it was fake it would be weird.

 

[IMOnTheEdge]

Isn't that generational rather than gender related? I know someone who uses Sir/Ma'am for everyone he doesn't know, including people doing service jobs for him, certainly everyone older than he is. I think it's actually kind of a class act, but it's just his manner and if it was fake it would be weird.

LOL -- generational?? Is that the same thing as saying I'm old?? Just kidding -- perhaps that is true to some extent; I was speaking more in the context of a D/s relationship and comparing it with good manners -- perhaps that is too far a stretch!

 

[gamerdom]

Wow this kind of took on a life of its own. I'm happy it did at that. I want to refocus this a bit though. This is more about at D/s relationship than about day to day life style.

I agree Netzach hit it on the head with:

But we're not talking about titles, really are we? We are talking about a direct order. A request, if you will.

If I am feeling a whim, and I tell my submissive, a submissive I have a history and familiarity with, to call me "Queen of all Marshmallow Fluff with a Tassel on her Tits" then I absolutely expect them to do it posthaste.

She also hit the other nail with :

Let me make it clear where I'm coming from, and then you tell me about relationship courtesy and communication. Because in my experience, saying one thing, repeatedly, often and in a million ways, and then doing the opposite, is kind of crap in those departments, isn't it?

I'm coming from being a dominant woman, the least represented in mixed BDSM groupings, not because we don't exist but because things are constantly made into some flavor of shitty for us in the mixed community.

I'm coming from a LOT of interest, and a lot of it insisting it's there to serve me, when it's there to serve itself. I'm coming from being viewed as some kind of whip with nice tits, some kind of fetish soup kitchen for the under-beaten. No. I'm coming from being fooled and burned on this at least a few times, though fewer than most. Why?

Because I don't play the funny little games. I screen. I test. I'm perfectly fine disappointing people, because people have burned me out to a point where it's about me or go away. That IS my orientation. I give back a lot, an endless lot with people I go the distance with, but I don't waste my time.

I drop things on the floor and if they're not picked up, I am wasting my time. I know this because I've wasted it. I've been hurt by men and women alike who are submissive until I actually God forbid need them for something real and then the game is suddenly over.

I am not here to be a shrink and figure out what a submissive's theory of linguistics and respect is (though that can be interesting and fantastic, and it's not that I'm not interested, I'm just not interested UNTIL I see some proof of concept re: submission.)

Everyone talks about Dominants earning trust and nobody thinks that this works in reverse whatsoever. If you are actually Dominant, not just satisfied with sadistic sex and a little whiff of control as a condiment, you're having your energy sucked and sapped by every exchange that promises submission but can't even follow through with passing the salt if you say "pass the salt."

I am in this environment and this context to be served. If that opportunity doesn't make your little heart beat fast enough to do as you are told (unless you're having REAL trouble or I haven't provided the tools or info it takes) then I'm serving your desires, and I don't swing that way.

This is exactly how I feel about things sometimes. Trust works both ways in this and, its seldom seen that way. I wish I was as elegant in my words as you are Netzach.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[SpunThings]

I think we're talking about two things: Submission, and language.

With the first one, I'm kind of with Netzach, but it also depends on how much the submissive partner is submitting to. If gamerdom says "Call me 'Sir'." she should call him sir, unless she has agreed to submission based on narrower parameters. It's kind of important to discuss these things.

With my husband, during play times if he tells me to call him "Sir" I do it. He's asked me to call him things at various times, and I did whether I liked it or not. Most of the time it felt awkward and I wasn't into it, but he was and I've agreed to do what he says under those circumstances. If I really have a problem with it I'll discuss it, but it doesn't bother me enough to do so.

I think the problem with the word "sir" and it having any meaning is that words are so loaded and tied into an individual's experience, and cultural upbringing, and other outside experiences, that you can't really make generalizations about it.

So a dominant person in a relationship can tell their submissive partner they want them to call them "Sir" or whatever other thing they want them to use, but I feel like it's unwise to ignore what those terms mean to the submissive as well if your intention is to create a certain headspace. Of course the submissive can work to change the meaning of that term for themselves so that it works in the relationship, but those kinds of things take time and someone who wants to make those changes within their own head.

An example is that my husband was raised in the south where you refer to all adults, and anyone who is above you in age or station as "Sir" or "Ma'am". This isn't just a passing thing, it's a big deal in a lot of southern families. Now we live in the northeast where that's kind of absurd unless you're in the service industry where you don't know the name of the person you're speaking to. Even working in the service industry my southern born husband has been asked to use "Miss" instead of "Ma'am" by his boss because "Ma'am" can make some women feel like he's saying they're old.

We actually had to have a discussion pre-kids about this. He was firmly of the opinion that he would be teaching our kids to use "Sir" and "Ma'am" whether I chose to reinforce that teaching or not. I think time living here in the northeast, and my own urgings, have convinced him otherwise. We do not teach our kids to speak this way. My husband still feels very uncomfortable referring to my Mom by her name.

To me, "Sir" means "Anonymous person whose name I don't know, and who I am attempting to address respectfully to say something." It's impersonal, so wouldn't be appropriate as something meaningful in a relationship for me.

Although, if I was with someone who I came to love and trust, and that person said that "Sir" meant something intimate and important to him, I'd probably still not say it at the start. It would be something that I would choose to say if I really felt it. It's not something that can be demanded or ripped from me to mean something. However, I'd submit to saying as long as he didn't expect it to mean anything to me. How's that for confusing.

 

[Netzach]

I think we're talking about two things: Submission, and language.

With the first one, I'm kind of with Netzach, but it also depends on how much the submissive partner is submitting to. If gamerdom says "Call me 'Sir'." she should call him sir, unless she has agreed to submission based on narrower parameters. It's kind of important to discuss these things.

With my husband, during play times if he tells me to call him "Sir" I do it. He's asked me to call him things at various times, and I did whether I liked it or not. Most of the time it felt awkward and I wasn't into it, but he was and I've agreed to do what he says under those circumstances. If I really have a problem with it I'll discuss it, but it doesn't bother me enough to do so.

I think the problem with the word "sir" and it having any meaning is that words are so loaded and tied into an individual's experience, and cultural upbringing, and other outside experiences, that you can't really make generalizations about it.

So a dominant person in a relationship can tell their submissive partner they want them to call them "Sir" or whatever other thing they want them to use, but I feel like it's unwise to ignore what those terms mean to the submissive as well if your intention is to create a certain headspace. Of course the submissive can work to change the meaning of that term for themselves so that it works in the relationship, but those kinds of things take time and someone who wants to make those changes within their own head.

An example is that my husband was raised in the south where you refer to all adults, and anyone who is above you in age or station as "Sir" or "Ma'am". This isn't just a passing thing, it's a big deal in a lot of southern families. Now we live in the northeast where that's kind of absurd unless you're in the service industry where you don't know the name of the person you're speaking to. Even working in the service industry my southern born husband has been asked to use "Miss" instead of "Ma'am" by his boss because "Ma'am" can make some women feel like he's saying they're old.

We actually had to have a discussion pre-kids about this. He was firmly of the opinion that he would be teaching our kids to use "Sir" and "Ma'am" whether I chose to reinforce that teaching or not. I think time living here in the northeast, and my own urgings, have convinced him otherwise. We do not teach our kids to speak this way. My husband still feels very uncomfortable referring to my Mom by her name.

To me, "Sir" means "Anonymous person whose name I don't know, and who I am attempting to address respectfully to say something." It's impersonal, so wouldn't be appropriate as something meaningful in a relationship for me.

Although, if I was with someone who I came to love and trust, and that person said that "Sir" meant something intimate and important to him, I'd probably still not say it at the start. It would be something that I would choose to say if I really felt it. It's not something that can be demanded or ripped from me to mean something. However, I'd submit to saying as long as he didn't expect it to mean anything to me. How's that for confusing.

I have to agree that you'd ignore the cultural implications and the nuances of what your sub thinks of your terminology of choice at your own peril if it's really a big deal to you - in this I totally agree.

I just think that in measured doses - or in instances where you are making the point of "shut up and do it" and both parties understand that this is about "shut up and do it" that this is a valid point.

I guess you'd get into trouble if your point is "shut up and do it" and they think that this is about how you TRULY feel about the words you're telling them to say. OP, I think this is probably the problem with the exchange you described, you were probably not on the same page. You were probably on the page of "to respect me is to do it" and she was probably on the page of "that word doesn't have anything to do with respect and feels pointless."

I think there's a time and place for obedient robotic yes-ism, at least in my world. It's foolhardy to overplay that hand though, for sure.