The thin line of Abuse

[Zoots_owner]

I don’t know man, something about this is way off, I just cant seem to articulate it at the moment.

To expect everything to go flawlessly is a flaw in its own. There is no way the dom will always know what’s up, we cant read minds, despite certain claims.

No mindreading, just communication.

This weekend, for example, she will get a major assignment. She doesn't know quite what it's going to be yet, and it'll be something not quite like anything she's done before, but I have ZERO worry that she's going to feel abused - quite the contrary. I know that because I ask questions, and I don't accept superficial or otherwise half-assed answers. "I enjoy whatever Master wants" may have truth to it, but it's also a dodge. One needs to dig deeper.

Maybe months pass between the question and acting on the answer, or maybe years, or maybe I never act on the answer at all. But I make it my business to know what's in her head, and I do it without killing the surprises.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I am so impressed with your dispassionate, rational self-analysis and your conclusion to carry on, with loyalty to your children first and foremost. You have a deep-seated love for a decent life. Thank you for sharing with us your wisdom, expressed with such simple eloquence.

Wow, thank you, castagnus. I took a year to heal after I left. No dating, no anything beyond focusing on myself and my girls and getting us emotionally healthy. It's still there, but we have the tools to handle it now. I may still be alone, but I have peace in my life.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Damn, but thats so hot.

It does sound hot, doesn't it? But when you think about it, really think about the implications, it doesn't sound hot at all. Because when something happens to you, and it will at some point even if it's just a temporary situation, she won't have the ability to make decisions or take care of herself, much less you. There's a fine line between 'harm' and D/s in this kind of situation. Total isolation and dependence, while I'm sure sexy to some, is probably one of the most damaging things you can do to another human being, in my opinion.

Red flags, you have done the research on abuse right? Is there any specific definition the people who deal with this sort of stuff use?

Sure, and if you're truly interested, I can pull some stuff out. The absolute BEST resource I've ever read about abusive men specifically is by Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. I spent about 2 years as a co-leader on a domestic abuse board on iVillage, also spent time working as a volunteer in a women's shelter. My best friend is a PR person and grant writer for a domestic violence group in my home county. So if you want more info or resources, just let me know. (Feel free to PM, if you'd like.)

 

[ownedsubgal]

It does sound hot, doesn't it? But when you think about it, really think about the implications, it doesn't sound hot at all. Because when something happens to you, and it will at some point even if it's just a temporary situation, she won't have the ability to make decisions or take care of herself, much less you. There's a fine line between 'harm' and D/s in this kind of situation. Total isolation and dependence, while I'm sure sexy to some, is probably one of the most damaging things you can do to another human being, in my opinion.

by vanilla standards, isolating someone, and having them utterly dependent on you is like the benchmark of abuse. but in D/s, specifically M/s, the standards are not the same. for some it may simply be part and parcel of their chosen way of life.

while i wouldn't consider myself to be totally isolated from the world, my Master does control those i interact with face to face. anyone who is in my life is there because he feels they should be, and he controls to what degree. as far as dependence, i am completely dependent on him...for shelter, food, money, social interaction, mental stimulation, friendship, love, etc. if something were to happen to him, i'd have no clue how to go about caring for myself. not that it matters, independence is not a quality my Master finds helpful or desireable in a slave. for us, this is not "abuse," it is not "hot," it is just life.

this is not to say that he cannot abuse me...he certainly can, does and will from time to time (again, "abuse" being defined as significant physical mental or emotional harm). abuse is not a dirty word in this house. it is value neutral. it's a bit odd to me that others in this lifestyle do not view it the same.

 

[Hisscarlett]

thank you!

 

[Netzach]

by vanilla standards, isolating someone, and having them utterly dependent on you is like the benchmark of abuse. but in D/s, specifically M/s, the standards are not the same. for some it may simply be part and parcel of their chosen way of life.

while i wouldn't consider myself to be totally isolated from the world, my Master does control those i interact with face to face. anyone who is in my life is there because he feels they should be, and he controls to what degree. as far as dependence, i am completely dependent on him...for shelter, food, money, social interaction, mental stimulation, friendship, love, etc. if something were to happen to him, i'd have no clue how to go about caring for myself. not that it matters, independence is not a quality my Master finds helpful or desireable in a slave. for us, this is not "abuse," it is not "hot," it is just life.

this is not to say that he cannot abuse me...he certainly can, does and will from time to time (again, "abuse" being defined as significant physical mental or emotional harm). abuse is not a dirty word in this house. it is value neutral. it's a bit odd to me that others in this lifestyle do not view it the same.

I also consider "abuse" value neutral in my interactions with H, though we're talking about mental rather than physical. Physically the pain/stress is lightweight in comparison. This is a person who requires, not enjoys, but requires a certain modicum of mental cruelty and I someone who needs an outlet. Better him than someone else, because he knows what to do with it.

The reason the isolation and dependence thing doesn't work for me is because 1. I don't find it erotic or desireable in my show and 2. It makes my life *more* difficult and doesn't enhance it nearly as much as the split-personality "act" of independent adult played successfully. That benefits me more in terms of slave labor. And I enjoy the contradiction, I find the contradiction erotic.

 

[YourCaptor]

cut out

So you are never gonna slip up?

It does sound hot, doesn't it? But when you think about it, really think about the implications, it doesn't sound hot at all. Because when something happens to you, and it will at some point even if it's just a temporary situation, she won't have the ability to make decisions or take care of herself, much less you. There's a fine line between 'harm' and D/s in this kind of situation. Total isolation and dependence, while I'm sure sexy to some, is probably one of the most damaging things you can do to another human being, in my opinion.

I’ll put her in my will.

Seriously though, that’s the plan, at least informally. Me and the most trusted friend have already discussed this one pretty thoroughly, as we have both visited each others plausible deathbeds before.

At the moment I don’t have to worry about those depressing thoughts though, as there is no one even close to that level of attachment.

I don’t see it as abuse though, not at all. It could be… this is exactly the kind of thing I’m trying to address here.

Hmm...

Whats Zoots take on this one? Talk about it before hand, that doesn't change the ultimate impact though.

Sure, and if you're truly interested, I can pull some stuff out. The absolute BEST resource I've ever read about abusive men specifically is by Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. I spent about 2 years as a co-leader on a domestic abuse board on iVillage, also spent time working as a volunteer in a women's shelter. My best friend is a PR person and grant writer for a domestic violence group in my home county. So if you want more info or resources, just let me know. (Feel free to PM, if you'd like.)

Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men

That sounds like the diary of a mad black woman.

I'll take your word on it though, and PM is coming.

 

[Zoots_owner]

So you are never gonna slip up?

I hope not, but mistakes are possible, even if one's careful. The devil's in the details, you know? Let's assume that loaning her out is fine, in principle, and that there's little chance of anyone getting arrested over it (those making D/s agreements might do well to consider whether it's acceptable to order something which is likely to result in becoming a registered sex offender, for example). That still only gives you a general guideline. If one's going to pimp one's pyl out, one had better have some kind of idea what "their type" is. A lot of people who'd be enthused about being whored out to their favorite movie star would not be so wild about the idea if they were being sold to that grungy-looking old German guy.

In short, even if you agree about the rules and boundaries, there will still be matters of taste involved, and misjudging will be a possibility.

I’ll put her in my will.

Seriously though, that’s the plan, at least informally. Me and the most trusted friend have already discussed this one pretty thoroughly, as we have both visited each others plausible deathbeds before.

At the moment I don’t have to worry about those depressing thoughts though, as there is no one even close to that level of attachment.

I don’t see it as abuse though, not at all. It could be… this is exactly the kind of thing I’m trying to address here.

Hmm...

Whats Zoots take on this one? Talk about it before hand, that doesn't change the ultimate impact though.

On being completely dependent?

I don't think it's evil in and of itself, but I do think that it makes abusive situations much more likely to persist.

It's hot to have your pyl completely at your mercy, but let's face it, that's only true when you have her bound, or have your hands around her throat. At any other time, she's only there because she hasn't decided to leave. Even in times and places where slavery was legal, slaves could run away. So you may as well develop a taste for how hot it is that she wants to stay.

In my opinion, that's what D/s is about. It's willing servitude. Do you think it reflects positively on someone because they're able to keep somebody chained up in a basement? I don't, any moronic loser could manage that, at least for a while. Having a pyl in voluntary servitude, on the other hand, is something that a PYL should be rightfully proud of. You must have something going for you if you can inspire complete trust and devotion.

From a practical perspective, I think the arguments run the same. If she can't go out while you're at work, fill up the gas tank and buy your groceries, you're not getting much use out of her, are you? Yet if she can do that, she can take that same $100 and catch a Greyhound to a battered women's shelter hundreds of miles away. Most of her value to you comes from her consent.

That's my perspective on it anyway, yours may differ.

 

[ownedsubgal]

From a practical perspective, I think the arguments run the same. If she can't go out while you're at work, fill up the gas tank and buy your groceries, you're not getting much use out of her, are you?

as you said, it's a matter of perspective. i cannot leave the house when my Master is at work during the day, i can't drive to the grocery store and wouldn't even know how to pump gas. however i am useful to him in other ways, by taking care of his house, preparing his food, and being at his beck and call every moment of every day.

you also make a good point when you say that if a sub/slave can drive and have access to a vehicle, and have money with which to buy groceries, nothing is stopping her from taking that car and that cash and going to a women's shelter or just going across state lines never to be heard from again. that's one reason that giving a slave so much freedom and independence has never appealed to my Master...it's more of a benefit to him to know that i do not have the ability or means of successful escape, even if i wished it. and that fact is a great comfort to me as well.

 

[Bandit58]

by vanilla standards, isolating someone, and having them utterly dependent on you is like the benchmark of abuse. but in D/s, specifically M/s, the standards are not the same. for some it may simply be part and parcel of their chosen way of life.

while i wouldn't consider myself to be totally isolated from the world, my Master does control those i interact with face to face. anyone who is in my life is there because he feels they should be, and he controls to what degree. as far as dependence, i am completely dependent on him...for shelter, food, money, social interaction, mental stimulation, friendship, love, etc. if something were to happen to him, i'd have no clue how to go about caring for myself. not that it matters, independence is not a quality my Master finds helpful or desireable in a slave. for us, this is not "abuse," it is not "hot," it is just life.

this is not to say that he cannot abuse me...he certainly can, does and will from time to time (again, "abuse" being defined as significant physical mental or emotional harm). abuse is not a dirty word in this house. it is value neutral. it's a bit odd to me that others in this lifestyle do not view it the same.

But we do not all have your mindset osg. Having been through years of emotional abuse, I have vowed not to ever put myself in that situation again. I admit I cannot understand living the way you do, for to me it is abusive....

I would be of little use to Sir if I could not drive, go get shopping, pick up His meds, take care of finances, let alone help with His health care needs which are many and complicated. But I guess you and I serve in different ways.....

 

[BeachGurl2]

by vanilla standards, isolating someone, and having them utterly dependent on you is like the benchmark of abuse. but in D/s, specifically M/s, the standards are not the same. for some it may simply be part and parcel of their chosen way of life.

while i wouldn't consider myself to be totally isolated from the world, my Master does control those i interact with face to face. anyone who is in my life is there because he feels they should be, and he controls to what degree. as far as dependence, i am completely dependent on him...for shelter, food, money, social interaction, mental stimulation, friendship, love, etc. if something were to happen to him, i'd have no clue how to go about caring for myself. not that it matters, independence is not a quality my Master finds helpful or desireable in a slave. for us, this is not "abuse," it is not "hot," it is just life.

this is not to say that he cannot abuse me...he certainly can, does and will from time to time (again, "abuse" being defined as significant physical mental or emotional harm). abuse is not a dirty word in this house. it is value neutral. it's a bit odd to me that others in this lifestyle do not view it the same.

The bolded statement - like everything within the lifestyle, no two sets of partners practice the lifestyle in the same way. Personally, I'm not involved in the lifestyle because I want to be abused. I don't see abuse as a positive thing, having suffered it for over 10 years in my marriage. And I realize that your definition of a slave and mine are significantly different. I could never live the life you've chosen. But you would probably never be able to live the life I've chosen, either. Doesn't make either of us better or worse than the other. Just different.

As a past abuse counselor, your lifestyle choices concern me. But having read a lot of what you've posted here over a long time, you don't sound like someone who is being emotionally or psychologically harmed by what your Master does to you. You have called it abuse using the definition given in this thread, but I wonder if it is abuse when harm doesn't seem evident. That fuzzy gray line again.

The same question would apply to Netz. You are mentally cruel to H, but he thrives on it, and doesn't sound like he's harmed by it. Does that mean it's not abuse as defined here? Just because your behavior is mentally cruel doesn't mean it is harming him mentally. And again, wouldn't be the life I'd choose, but that doesn't negate it.

As to my discussion of isolation, there is more than one school of thought on that. I've talked to Doms who have isolated their subs, who have encouraged them to be pretty much helpless and totally dependent upon them. Those who are responsible Doms rather than abusers have made arrangements for the care of their subs when they become unable to care for them. That changes the dynamic of abuse. They have made sure that their subs won't be left to fend for themselves without the tools to do so, or someone to care for them in his absense. Under those circumstances, the isolation couldn't be considered abusive. It becomes abusive when they would be completely helpless and unable to survive upon the loss of their Master.

 

[Netzach]

The same question would apply to Netz. You are mentally cruel to H, but he thrives on it, and doesn't sound like he's harmed by it. Does that mean it's not abuse as defined here? Just because your behavior is mentally cruel doesn't mean it is harming him mentally. And again, wouldn't be the life I'd choose, but that doesn't negate it.

That is pretty much why I said what I said. Abuse, unacceptable abuse, is defined by the beholder. The things I do to H are just things - if there was no recipeint, they're just words - really, it's what his makeup and mind and emotions interpret them as which make them good for him, bad for a lot of other people.

I think we're on the same page.

If I didn't *like* his responses, if his response was to shut down and cease to thrive, I wouldn't get anything out of the interactions. Maybe it is, maybe it's not "my right as owner" but it's not my preference and it's not productive in any objective sense. It's like buying a yacht and sinking it. WTH?

That is what an abuser *aims for*.

 

[BeachGurl2]

That is pretty much why I said what I said. Abuse, unacceptable abuse, is defined by the beholder. The things I do to H are just things - if there was no recipeint, they're just words - really, it's what his makeup and mind and emotions interpret them as which make them good for him, bad for a lot of other people.

I think we're on the same page.

If I didn't *like* his responses, if his response was to shut down and cease to thrive, I wouldn't get anything out of the interactions. Maybe it is, maybe it's not "my right as owner" but it's not my preference and it's not productive in any objective sense. It's like buying a yacht and sinking it. WTH?

That is what an abuser *aims for*.

I agree, it sounds like we're on the same page with it all. And I think you're right. The abuser aims for the damage. That's the difference, I believe, between the two.

 

[Valcorie]

I think a lot of D/s relationships are abuse - but that's the other part about abuse. Going up to an abused woman and trying to force them to 'get help' doesn't work. As long as they don't want to leave their situation, they won't. And going up to them and informing them that they're abused is about as welcome as someone coming up to me and telling me I'm fat.

I have to disagree with the first part of this statement. Many abusers use the veil of BDSM to justify their actions. However, there is a disticnt diffence between BDSM and abuse. First with BDSM ( good relationship anyway) it requires a deep level of intimatcy and communication which grows as the relationship grows It is respectful, more then a sub just showing respect to a Master. A master also respects the gift of submission the sub is giving and understands its value. While a sub serves his or her master and gives up control and power the Master has the extra responsibility of providing for the submissive. It all boils down to finding a fine balance.

Abuse however, is the deliberate manipulation and destruction of another. (whether vanilla or not) There is no respect, no balance of responsibilities, it is one sided. It causes a lack of intimacy and trust. I agree that telling someone they are being abused is general not going to cause an immediate change. However, in many cases the person is so worn down bu manipulation they truly can not see it as wrong any longer. The deserve it or are so used to covering that they have rationalized it. It is familiar and safe in a twisted way.

I don't have a lot of experience with BDSM but I do have some experience with emotional/verbal abuse. I am in the process of getting out of that type of marriage myself. It took a lot of friends pulling me aside to get me to look and see what I knew in my heart to be true.