The unvarnished truth - politics and economic factors shaping the US and the world

[tinylittlegnat]

You're carrying it to an absurd point, I guess you know that. Investment in infrastructure is needed for everyone's benefit. Investment in GM to save the union is not.

I absolutely agree. Who was president when GM was given the first bailout?

Not that that matters as both parties would have done it.

As far as my list goes yes it was infrastructure but none of it was in the constitution as the framers wrote it. Eisenhower instituted the interstate system and originally Americans did not want a police force at all. Although Franklin did argue for firefighting services and libraries firefighting was once a private industry and was a disaster.

But everything on the list could be used with a "slippery slope" argument. It comes down to another question. Would you stop medicare/cade and social security today 100% if you could or is that the correct level of socialism?

 

[KingOrfeo]

We don't need to emulate another country. The USA was a grand experiment in freedom when it was formed and I'm dissapointed that we seem to be rushing back to suck on the teat of European philosophy with their nanny states, rigid castes and focus on birthrights rather than merit, accomplishment and innovation that has characterized our nation up until now.

And yet, nowadays, things in general seem to go so much better in Europe than they do here. Why is that?

 

[tinylittlegnat]

There are a lot of people who can't afford to heat their homes now and the numbers will increase dramatically over the next couple years as these new policies take hold and ripple through the economy.

Anwar would make a difference, it would show a willingness to invest in our natural resources and do something positive for the country.

I thought conservatism was about personal responsibility. You get sick you gotta deal with it. You cant afford to heat your home its not the governments responsibility to make sure you can.

We have plenty of oil outside of anwar. Literally millions of barrels out in the gulf. Besides anwar wouldnt help as we havnt built a refinery in over 20 years and all west coast oil gets sent to China for refining and then sold back to us. Tell these oil companies that have record profits to built a refinery on each coast and we will talk about anwar.

 

[RightField]

And yet, nowadays, things in general seem to go so much better in Europe than they do here. Why is that?

I've worked in Europe. Have you? If they're doing better than us, then it's by accounting tricks or creativity in the comparision because by any objective measure, it's not true.

 

[RightField]

I thought conservatism was about personal responsibility. You get sick you gotta deal with it. You cant afford to heat your home its not the governments responsibility to make sure you can.

We have plenty of oil outside of anwar. Literally millions of barrels out in the gulf. Besides anwar wouldnt help as we havnt built a refinery in over 20 years and all west coast oil gets sent to China for refining and then sold back to us. Tell these oil companies that have record profits to built a refinery on each coast and we will talk about anwar.

Add "building refineries' to the list of things that the Green Party can support in their new business-friendly climate. Refineries are another victim of the liberal/green anti-business cabal.

 

[miles]

I've worked in Europe. Have you? If they're doing better than us, then it's by accounting tricks or creativity in the comparision because by any objective measure, it's not true.

You have to understand Oreo lives in Bizarro World where up is down, yes means no, and good is bad.

He's in his own video.

 

[tinylittlegnat]

I've worked in Europe. Have you? If they're doing better than us, then it's by accounting tricks or creativity in the comparision because by any objective measure, it's not true.

Not claiming to have even been to Europe but I have talked with alot of people from there who came to Louisiana and Virginia on vacation and I always made a point to ask them about healthcare and other things. I have never heard a single complaint about healthcare or their working conditions.

 

[tinylittlegnat]

Add "building refineries' to the list of things that the Green Party can support in their new business-friendly climate. Refineries are another victim of the liberal/green anti-business cabal.

Im a liberal but Im all for more refineries and also nuclear power plants as long as they comply with ethical, environmental, and safety standards.

 

[RightField]

Not claiming to have even been to Europe but I have talked with alot of people from there who came to Louisiana and Virginia on vacation and I always made a point to ask them about healthcare and other things. I have never heard a single complaint about healthcare or their working conditions.

No, it's a workers paradise where the status quo is upheld with a stiff upper lip. Did I tell you my story of the Marks and Spencer store in Paris?

Some dunderheaded Englishman thought that he could sell English clothes in Paris. Seriously think about that. lol. The fancy clothing store Marks and Spencer (think Nordstrums) opened a store there. It failed. They decided to call it a day, close the store and retreat back across the channel. The French said "No, there are employees still depending on Marks and Spencer for employment and you must remain". The management left a few racks of clothes, got rid of the cleaning crew and leave the few employees there to watch the dust bunnies dash across the floor.

Why is that bad you might ask? It retards the efficient flow of resources (people, capital and physical goods) from places where it isn't much value to anyone to places where it is valued (and makes a bigger profit). Other people (well maybe not English clothing manufacturers) will think twice about opening stores there and investing because it can become a black hole of administrative nightmares and ever growing costs.

 

[tinylittlegnat]

No, it's a workers paradise where the status quo is upheld with a stiff upper lip. Did I tell you my story of the Marks and Spencer store in Paris?

Some dunderheaded Englishman thought that he could sell English clothes in Paris. Seriously think about that. lol. The fancy clothing store Marks and Spencer (think Nordstrums) opened a store there. It failed. They decided to call it a day, close the store and retreat back across the channel. The French said "No, there are employees still depending on Marks and Spencer for employment and you must remain". The management left a few racks of clothes, got rid of the cleaning crew and leave the few employees there to watch the dust bunnies dash across the floor.

Why is that bad you might ask? It retards the efficient flow of resources (people, capital and physical goods) from places where it isn't much value to anyone to places where it is valued (and makes a bigger profit). Other people (well maybe not English clothing manufacturers) will think twice about opening stores there and investing because it can become a black hole of administrative nightmares and ever growing costs.

I understand what you are saying and it would be easy to say something like "They made a mistake and are paying the price" But thats not quite right. There is a balance though. Why not take the good that is there and not take the bad?

 

[KingOrfeo]

I've worked in Europe. Have you? If they're doing better than us, then it's by accounting tricks or creativity in the comparision because by any objective measure, it's not true.

Once again: From "The American Paradox," by Ted Halstead, published in The Atlantic Monthly, January/February 2003:

Nothing illustrates America's profound contradictions more starkly than a comparison with other advanced democracies: among these the United States is either the very best or the very worst performer on a wide range of social and economic criteria. We are simultaneously the leader and the laggard among our peers—almost always exceptional, almost never in the middle.

Without question we are the richest, most powerful, and most creative nation on the planet. Our economic and military might stems from our embrace of a particularly high-octane brand of capitalism, supported by financial markets that are deeper and broader than any others, labor markets that are more flexible, and a culture of entrepreneurialism that is unparalleled. These attributes have turned America into the world's unrivaled engine of innovation and wealth creation. We boast more patent applications than the entire European Union; almost three times as many Nobel laureates as Britain, our closest competitor; and more business start-ups per capita than almost every other advanced democracy. One in twelve Americans will start his or her own business, evincing another outstanding American trait—our great tolerance for risk. And our export of movies, television shows, music, and fast-food chains makes us, for better or worse, the dominant cultural force on the globe.

But like the Roman god Janus, America has two faces. Despite being the richest nation on the planet, we suffer from higher rates of poverty, infant mortality, homicide, and HIV infection, and from greater economic inequality, than other advanced democracies. We have far more uninsured citizens, and a lower life expectancy. On a per capita basis the United States emits considerably more greenhouse gases and produces more solid waste. We spend more per student on K-12 education than almost all other modern democracies, yet our students perform near the bottom on international tests. We have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and among the highest proportions of single parents, and American parents have the least amount of free time to spend with their children; indeed, the average American works nine weeks more each year than the average European. Our performance on many social indicators is so poor, in fact, that an outsider looking at these numbers alone might conclude that we were a developing nation.

How do we reconcile these two faces of America? To a remarkable degree the United States seems to have exchanged social cohesion and a broad-based middle class for economic dynamism and personal freedom. Have we abandoned what used to be referred to as the common good?

<snip>

THE TWO FACES OF AMERICA

This list of "bests" and "worsts" is based on a variety of sources—including statistics from the United Nations, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and a number of other groups and experts—but the basic criteria are consistent. Among advanced democracies, America had to rank in the top three for a category to be listed under "bests" and in the bottom three for a category to be listed under "worsts." (Where applicable, all rankings were determined on a rate basis or as a percentage of population.)

Bests-------------------------------------------------Worsts

Gross domestic product------------------------------Poverty
Productivity---------------------------------------------Economic inequality
Business start-ups------------------------------------Carbon-dioxide emissions
Long-term unemployment---------------------------Life expectancy
Expenditure on education---------------------------Infant mortality
University graduates----------------------------------Homicide
R&D expenditure---------------------------------------Health-care coverage
High-tech exports--------------------------------------HIV infection
Movies exported---------------------------------------Teen pregnancy
Breadth of stock ownership--------------------------Personal savings
Volunteerism--------------------------------------------Voter participation
Charitable giving---------------------------------------Obesity

Each approach to the social contract has its pluses and minuses, of course, but on balance America has made a very bad bargain for itself and should learn from the examples of others.

 

[RightField]

Once again: From "The American Paradox," by Ted Halstead, published in The Atlantic Monthly, January/February 2003:

Each approach to the social contract has its pluses and minuses, of course, but on balance America has made a very bad bargain for itself and should learn from the examples of others.

There is no returning to the 50's.

Yes, I agree with you completely and the quicker we kick these liberal idiots out of power and quit kowtowing to teachers unions, government employee unions, the UAW, trial lawyers and people like Jesse Jackson the better off we'll all be and we can start to correct the mess that they've made.

Personally, education is a big part of our problem and the dems are taking steps backwards by strengthening the teachers unions by crushing competition. They're taking away the school voucher program in Washington DC, for example, that was a marvelous success, but it grated on the teachers unions and now, to the detriment of the students, it's gone. Get rid of the liberals. They can't govern.

 

[RightField]

I understand what you are saying and it would be easy to say something like "They made a mistake and are paying the price" But thats not quite right. There is a balance though. Why not take the good that is there and not take the bad?

The good is the museums, the art, the architecture and the rich history of ideas and innovation. When we declared our independence and created the constitution, we did take what was good and jettison what was bad. While they were once the engine of ideas and innovation, we've inhereted most of that, though some pockets exist.

 

[RightField]

I understand what you are saying and it would be easy to say something like "They made a mistake and are paying the price" But thats not quite right. There is a balance though. Why not take the good that is there and not take the bad?

There are certainly some areas where they excel and there are areas where we could improve. The homicide rate drives me nuts, for example. How to fix that? Why do we have so many murders here? Are we so much more passionate (aren't most murders between people who are related)?

Dispassionately thinking...do you outlaw guns? That's a pretty big curtailment of freedoms. What about strengthening families so people feel more self worth and "part of something bigger". How to strengthen families then? More barriers to divorce? More social barriers to out-of-wedlock births? Are we starting to border on something people might think has a flavor of prejudice? How do we deal with these things in a practical and pragmatic way?

A stimulus bill that is all deficit spending and 95% payback to the democrat constituancies that supported the democrats through the elections is NOT solving these problems, if anything, it is making them worse by spending our precious resources frivolously and for naked political gain...it is not governance.

 

[tinylittlegnat]

The good is the museums, the art, the architecture and the rich history of ideas and innovation. When we declared our independence and created the constitution, we did take what was good and jettison what was bad. While they were once the engine of ideas and innovation, we've inhereted most of that, though some pockets exist.

I meant the good of healthcare and workers rights and also their automobiles. All the innovation I have seen in small automobiles is from Europe. Here is a good example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34r1xtbh_1k

 

[RightField]

Lets talk about the gap between rich and poor then...

The gap between rich and poor today is also a gap in cultural norms and mores to a degree unparalleled in our modern experience. The overall divorce rate, for example, exploded in the 1970s, but has since returned to just about its 1960 level for those with a college education. For the less *educated, however, the rate has continued to climb — and women without high-school diplomas are now about three times as likely to divorce within ten years of their first marriage as their college-educated counterparts.

Child-rearing has seen a similar split. In 1965, almost no mothers with any level of education reported that they had never been married. Today, this still holds true for mothers who have finished college: Only 3% have never been married. But that figure stands in stark contrast with the nearly 25% of mothers without high-school diplomas who say that they have never been married. In fact, last year, about 40% of all American births occurred out of wedlock. And about 70% of African-American children — as well as most Hispanic children — are born to unmarried *mothers. But this situation obtains for low-wage, non-*college-*educated whites as well: It is estimated that about 70% of children born to non-Hispanic white women with no more than a high-school education and income below $20,000 per year were born out of wedlock.

It's more than just education though...I don't think we've discovered the root cause yet. ACORN doesn't seem to be the answer though.

 

[RightField]

I meant the good of healthcare and workers rights and also their automobiles. All the innovation I have seen in small automobiles is from Europe. Here is a good example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34r1xtbh_1k

That is a good idea. Apparently someone in Japan has come up with something similar. I'd like to be able to drive an electronic golf cart to work. Do you think that our government will relax the laws enough for me to drive one on the roads? They're not much smaller than a "Smart Car"

My boss bought a smart car (one of many cars he has). He drives it around town, but won't take it on the freeway.

 

[KingOrfeo]

When we declared our independence and created the constitution, we did take what was good and jettison what was bad.

No, we didn't. For instance, we kept slavery and racism and ethnocentrism and (in the South, at least) landed aristocracy; while we largely jettisoned the idea of noblesse oblige, or of society owing something (however slight) to assure the welfare of its members.

 

[RightField]

Their policy on workers rights is strangling the European Union and is leading to armed insurrection in places with the resulting high unemployment rate (Paris last summer). They also have a significant problem with prejudice in many of the countries, particularly against middle easterners. The unemployment rate is very high and getting higher and ours is following the same pattern as we adapt the same policies.

It will soon get to the situation the Soviet Union found themselves in a couple decades ago. When asked about his job, a Russian said "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us"...we are following their pattern also.

 

[RightField]

No, we didn't. For instance, we kept slavery and racism and ethnocentrism and (in the South, at least) landed aristocracy; while we largely jettisoned the idea of noblesse oblige, or of society owing something (however slight) to assure the welfare of its members.

They kept slavery and racism too and only got rid of slavery later.

Britain technically abolished slavery in 1807, after the Haiti experience. While slavery was supposedly abolished in 1807, trade in ‘pre-existing slaves’ continued. Slave ships and traders had to pay a fine of GBP 100 per slave, if caught. The law was not seriously implemented. In the few cases where slave ships and traders were caught, slaves were simply thrown overboard.

British trade and agriculture brought pressure to stop slavery by other European kingdoms. Paid labour had made French products uncompetitive – which made Napoleon re-introduce slavery. This re-introduction of slavery by the French (circa 1804) diluted British resolve to end slavery.

Further rebellions in Barbados (1816), Demerra (1823) and Jamaica (1831-32) finally forced the British hand. Freedom to British slaves came finally in 1833 after the British Government passed yet another law, to outlaw slavery, Slavery Abolition Act in 1833 – and paid ‘compensation’ to slave owners. An egregious and glaring example was the ‘compensation’ to the Bishop of Exeter and his partners of GBP 12,700 to ‘compensate’ them for the ‘loss’ of 665 slaves in 1833.

After the finally abolishing slavery in 1833, indentured labour replaced slavery with indentured labour. Upfront, indentured labour was only slightly more expensive, but was cheaper in the long run. Indentured labour also came fewer issues related to capture, transport, trade and maintenance of slaves – with a veneer of respectability that was needed for propaganda purposes.

Also, Britain had India – a huge colony to fall back on for indentured labour. How could the British afford to buy indentured labour? Bought with new gold discoveries in Canada and Australia. Nearly 1 crore (10 million) indentured labourers were shipped out from India alone to various parts of the world – and continued till about 1917. As is to be expected, the UK Government grossly underestimates these figures.

By the time the indentured labour scheme was finally brought to an end in 1917, it is estimated that 2.5 million East Indians had been shipped to British colonies around the world. (From Empire’ Children – Channel 4).

They still haven't dealt with racism all that well, though they talk a good game. They're still pretty strong with the ethnocentrism too. The grass is not always greener no matter how much the slick talking snake oil liberals want to sell you.

 

[tinylittlegnat]

They also have cleaner energy. Most of the energy in France comes from nuclear power and I have read of whole towns in Spain powered by solar energy.

The town I read about in spain was pretty cool. They had large very old cemeteries with raised mausoleums. They placed solar panels on all the crypts(with family permission) and have enough power to power the entire town. They only pay the salary and benefits of a single man whose job it is to keep the panels clean and working.

 

[RightField]

Lets go back to workers rights.

We will not be able to go back to the 50s. If we want to thrive, we're going to have to be smarter and more innovative. (I'm working on that right now as a matter of fact). Education must improve and we must have more thinkers (remember the trend line for manufacturing labor....we produce just as much with fewer and fewer labour hours and will continue that trend). We need people with ideas, not just new consumer ideas, but ideas on how to build better, more efficient and more reliable tools and production systems. We need more innovation in software, in computers, in entertainment, in music, in all areas of life. We need to continue to innovate in food development and storage, in transportation.

To do that we need churn, we need to exit "old' industries and create new ones.

The more government "regulates" and supports the 'status quo', the further behind we'll fall.

We need better education and we can't continue to leave behind large swaths of our population (if you've read my posts for several years, you know I'm an outspoken advocate for equal opportunity). There are two parts of it though, we have to create great schools, but we also have to have students who care and parents who know enough to motivate their childen to care and excel.

We face a similar situation with the military. We are never going to be able to put 50 million men in uniform (the Chinese can). We need technological advantage to maintain a balance and we need smart people with the know-how to maintain and build upon our technological advantage and a strong enough economy that we can split out enough resources to keep funding it.

Without lots of smart people, our whole nation will suffer over time.

We are not going to get all the smart people that we need following the democrats/liberals approach. We need to do better.

 

[RightField]

They also have cleaner energy. Most of the energy in France comes from nuclear power and I have read of whole towns in Spain powered by solar energy.

The town I read about in spain was pretty cool. They had large very old cemeteries with raised mausoleums. They placed solar panels on all the crypts(with family permission) and have enough power to power the entire town. They only pay the salary and benefits of a single man whose job it is to keep the panels clean and working.

Yes, since the 70's, over 70% of France's electricity has come from Nukes. I wish we could do that here. Talk to the green/liberals about that...if they're going to drop their anti-business mantra (wishful thinking), maybe they'll approve a few nukes. Its worked for the Navy (not many liberals there I think).

Solar energy is still questionable for many parts of the United States for a couple reasons. First, the cost is not competitive yet given the total costs to include materials, storage and maintenance and second, many places don't get the regular sunshine that parts of Spain enjoy. I understand there have been some recent breakthoughs in materials science that will make solar a little more competitive though.

 

[RightField]

It's been real....

I'm off to vacation soon. Have a great New Years.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Yes, since the 70's, over 70% of France's electricity has come from Nukes. I wish we could do that here.

So do I. Better still, I wish most of our transportation needs could be met by electric- (ultimately nuclear-) powered trains, rather than petroleum-powered automobiles. (I don't see much potential for electric- or hydrogen-powered automobiles.)