The Way Less Than Perfect, drawn to the lifestyle

[catalina_francisco]

Perhaps it's the way you state your opinion. You often come across as being judgmental, although that may not be your intention.

Have heard that one before but on reflection was then told it was more that my conviction and efforts to evolve made many feel challenged which then became a response of my being judgemental. I am who I am and I have areas I am passionate about, but rarely through 'outside looking in' observation but more the 'in there boots and all' type experience where I put my money where my mouth is so to speak. I have learned this does startle some people, and most prefer to take the slow, reserved approach, or sugar coating as some say, but I cannot be that way. To me to act that ways feels I am a fake, misleading, and confused.

Some may also be cultural as stereotypical Australian ways do relate to being open about your thoughts, honest in your approach even if it is not right or palatable to all. A very much 'call a spade a spade' type of approach, but what those who have not experienced or understood it often see it as is confrontational or arrogant and completely miss the fact that we also respect the opposite view our neighbour may have, and usually with a touch of humour. I guess they judge froim their experience which from what In have experienced in other western societies is if you believe A, you can't possibly tolerate someone believing B. Many Aussies do, and hold no ill toward the other.

It is difficult to explain in words and perhaps later in the day the correct words will form in my head, but there is a dofference in the way we experience the world, ands express ourselves.......and my friends from various countries are always amazed at the friendliness we show toward strangers, the interest we have in their experiences, and the fact that even passing in the middle os a rainforest will always be be accompanied by a 'gidday' and a huge smile from the Aussie stranger.

C

 

[catalina_francisco]

Netzach, I am not going to go through your postings and depict words one by one. I am not judging you as a person, I am giving my opinion which of course are coloured by my own experiences, as are yours I expect.

Although I have never cheated I have been cheated on, and that while being in an open relationship, which makes it very hard to do theoretically if true to the parameters agreed upon. You are a Dominant/Top so let me put forward this case to you. I used to have a very similar approach to it as you do until I was a victim of being cheated on of course, but that is life, life experiences change someone’s position on it.

My former position was I do not cheat myself, but I would not mind fucking anyone who did, which in effect makes you participate in the ‘cheating processes’. My relationships have always been open and I have had this standing rule, if my partner wanted to fuck anyone whatsoever be it animal, human or furniture as long as she would tell me beforehand or tell me afterwards and then be punished for not telling me beforehand I would have no problem with it. But of course this does not apply for playing with other dominants/tops no go there under any circumstances unless I explicitly tell them so.

My old Mentor used to tell me I should become harder and not be so forgiving; make my standpoint be the one that counts. Make them follow my rules to the letter and if not kick them out and move on. I used to think that was hard, selfish and cold. My position was always if there is something wrong then we can talk about it, discuss it and work through it. Now days there are certain things I will never accept from my slave and yes Catalina knows what they are and knew before she entered into my service. One of those things is cheating, although I would not kick out Catalina would she cheat, she is aware what the punishment would be if she would.

I was in a relationship with a sub which lasted about two years and in the last couple of months we both were not getting out of it what we wanted so we both decided to end the relationship. So far nothing special, nothing out of the ordinary and I was feeling quite proud about how we had dealt with the situation and was planning to maintain friendship and keep in contact with her. Well after she had gone I started to clean out the computer, I found on them some password protected word files and folders.

I have not mentioned before what I do for a living so here goes, I am a forensic computer analyst or like some would like to call me a paid hacker, and have been doing that job for quite some time now and have given lectures and courses on it. So it took me about 3 minutes to open them up. I felt fully in my right doing so, since when she wrote those files she was in my service and in so she had no right to privacy during that period. To my surprise they where excerpts out of yahoo messenger discussions between her and a prospective new dominant, after checking the date they went back as far as 1 year. That to me is cheating and that dominant was now her new owner. She had been talking with him behind my back for one year, she had been meeting him in secret for over one year and to make things even worse I knew the dominant quite well.

I am sure it was all my responsibility for being the Dominant and not fulfilling her needs, I am sure it was my fault for not creating an environment where she felt she could talk openly about looking for a new dominant. Or maybe it was the fact that I could not handle my whip good enough. Yes the relationship was over and had been slowly going down the drain for about one year, and I am sure that it was my entire fault as the person being cheated on not hers. Which in effect was her standpoint on it, she felt I was not fulfilling her needs so she decides to find another way to fulfil her needs without even taking the courtesy to inform me.

I can tell you it does not feel very good, to say the least, to be cheated on. What did feel good was when she came crawling back after I married Catalina offering to do anything to be accepted back as my property. Of course true to form when I informed her of Catalina and our marriage and Master/slave relationship, she claimed she was also (2 days after her offer) now with the Master she was meant for and getting married too. Convenient…..more like her usual deception….as I think demonstrates her level of honesty and right to be trusted…not.

My personal experiences combined with my personal beliefs have made my position on cheating very simplistic and straightforward. I do not cheat and have never cheated, and I do not want to be involved with anyone who does, nor will I participate in the cheating processes. I will not cover up for anyone, and I will not fuck anyone whose partner is not aware of it. So yes I think before you cheat, you should end the relationship, or go to counselling or try anything else, and if your needs are not met in your relationship then end it or find ways together with your partner where your needs are being met.

So yes I want honesty and straightforwardness and have no patience for cheaters and do not want to be in a relationship with them.

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Hi Temptress,

you said,

A bit of a tangent...
I'm thinking that, in a way, not directly, but similar...

a Dom or Domme is someone who guides the submissive.

It made me think of some analogies, not sure how closely they fit.

A doctor, who smokes, drinks, doesn't watch his weight... is this person qualified to supervise your health?

A therapist, whose own life is in a shambles... is this person qualified to guide you to improving your life choices?

=====

Well, there's no lack of guru-dom/mes; some have 'handles' like
Mistress of Cosmic Light, and so on. A quite interesting, competent and intelligent guru domme emerged in another thread (introduced by Francisco), recently ( latter part, p. 5, thread on 'The Natural Dominant...")

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174794&perpage=25&pagenumber=5


Does a 'dom/me' HAVE to be a guru?

I think a dom/me MAY be a guru, but then again, a husband may be a guru--- and wife, why not?

That said, most self-labelled or partner-labelled gurus--including guru dom/mes-- are not real, in my opinion; they're Wizards of Oz. But if two want to play "I'm the Wizard and you're Dorothy" fine. Enjoy.

As to the analogies, yes, some of them seem odd, yet I do know of a cardiologist--a second cousin-- who smoked; and died of lung cancer. Could he do his job? I don't know first hand, I'd guess he could.

Here is my own analogy for your thought; the dom/me or top is like a chessmaster who's instructing you, 'playing' with you.
He or she may be late with paying rent, or kick the neighbor's cat every day, but I'd say that's irrelevant, esp. to what you can learn.

As to the therapist whose life is in shambles. The divorced marriage counsellor. Etc. I've seen a few. Are they good therapists? Sometimes, I think. But I'd add: My opinion is that there are very many 'experts in living'. A handful on this planet. Almost all are NOT therapists.

I personally believe, then that a therapist need not and should not hold themselve out to be an 'expert on living [or relating]'. By agreement, the therapist or 'helper's' problems are to be put aside, so as to be able to listen and 'help', but no one, imo, should believe there are not therapist problems, that s/he walks a few inches above the ground you and I walk on.

Just a few aberrant thoughts and crazed opinions.

J.

 

[rosco rathbone]

"Your thoughts on what feminism constitutes is what I hear repeatedly from thoise who believe the myths and think it is about conforming, not choice."

You've obviously never spent any time at the Ms.com boards.

 

[rosco rathbone]

"My relationships have always been open and I have had this standing rule, if my partner wanted to fuck anyone whatsoever be it animal, human or furniture as long as she would tell me beforehand or tell me afterwards and then be punished for not telling me beforehand I would have no problem with it."

Odd; I am the same exact way. Except sometimes punish even with foreknowledge. (Only way to pacify the jealous man in me). And have been cheated on all the same. I just said "OK, do what you have to do, but not with me around. I can't take the pain".

 

[rosco rathbone]

Read the rest of your tale, Francisco, very very interesting. I personally have a much stronger "moral outrage" reaction to the idea of hacking emails than to the idea of cheating. That's one thing I could never bring myself to do (and I am a jealous fuck in part of my head). But what do I know of the rules of no privacy between dominate and sumbissive and such-that's another world to me.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Hi Temptress,

you said,

A bit of a tangent...
I'm thinking that, in a way, not directly, but similar...

a Dom or Domme is someone who guides the submissive.

It made me think of some analogies, not sure how closely they fit.

A doctor, who smokes, drinks, doesn't watch his weight... is this person qualified to supervise your health?

A therapist, whose own life is in a shambles... is this person qualified to guide you to improving your life choices?

=====

Well, there's no lack of guru-dom/mes; some have 'handles' like
Mistress of Cosmic Light, and so on. A quite interesting, competent and intelligent guru domme emerged in another thread (introduced by Francisco), recently ( latter part, p. 5, thread on 'The Natural Dominant...")

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174794&perpage=25&pagenumber=5


Does a 'dom/me' HAVE to be a guru?

I think a dom/me MAY be a guru, but then again, a husband may be a guru--- and wife, why not?

That said, most self-labelled or partner-labelled gurus--including guru dom/mes-- are not real, in my opinion; they're Wizards of Oz. But if two want to play "I'm the Wizard and you're Dorothy" fine. Enjoy.

As to the analogies, yes, some of them seem odd, yet I do know of a cardiologist--a second cousin-- who smoked; and died of lung cancer. Could he do his job? I don't know first hand, I'd guess he could.

Here is my own analogy for your thought; the dom/me or top is like a chessmaster who's instructing you, 'playing' with you.
He or she may be late with paying rent, or kick the neighbor's cat every day, but I'd say that's irrelevant, esp. to what you can learn.

As to the therapist whose life is in shambles. The divorced marriage counsellor. Etc. I've seen a few. Are they good therapists? Sometimes, I think. But I'd add: My opinion is that there are very many 'experts in living'. A handful on this planet. Almost all are NOT therapists.

I personally believe, then that a therapist need not and should not hold themselve out to be an 'expert on living [or relating]'. By agreement, the therapist or 'helper's' problems are to be put aside, so as to be able to listen and 'help', but no one, imo, should believe there are not therapist problems, that s/he walks a few inches above the ground you and I walk on.

Just a few aberrant thoughts and crazed opinions.

J.

Pur, vous battez la guerre contre le jonandpollyisme.

 

[catalina_francisco]

"Your thoughts on what feminism constitutes is what I hear repeatedly from thoise who believe the myths and think it is about conforming, not choice."

You've obviously never spent any time at the Ms.com boards.

No, but I was awarded the highest mark possible in University from one of the most highly respected and acknowledged hardcore, dedicated feminists in my country, and some overseas locations, who lectured part-time, worked fulltime, and was an activist/advocate in every facet of her life positively affecting the lives of women in many countries,especially third world. Added to that, while studying, then later in the workforce and public life, I earned a well respected reputation in many areas for my feminism, and my non judgemental, open minded, and committed practice and life. To practice it is not an easy experience, nor very rewarding in most part, but to help one person is worth the crap you endure tenfold.

Feminism is something which still strongly guides my life in many ways, as it long has, though I would say now I am not continually involved in the politics etc., (mostly because here I don't speak the language to participate), my personal guiding force is focused more in Buddhism and my lifelong fight against discrimination and oppression in all forms.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Not letting this one go so easily

Wow, I would love to present this caase study and the others reflected here to a feminist tutorial for discussion. Are you all so brainwashed that now it is you, or another woman in a man's life, who is accountable for his inability to have a little bit of backbone and be honest? It may surprise you to know women have been freed of the yoke of men's guilt for the last few decades now and do not have to take the blame for their mistakes, nor protect them from themselves. And no, it has nothing to do with being a submissive, it has to do with that word h-o-n-e-s-t.

I cannot believe you have managed to sell yourself this line that if you are not nice to poor boy, he can't be expected to tell you or his wife the truth, and it is all your fault or hers for not being nice and open and creating the 'right' atmosphere. I think the day you commit to a relationship it is understood both parties will do their best to be trustworthy and honest if nothing more as a mark of respect for someone they are supposed to care for. What may I ask is this cheating spouse doing to create this perfect atmosphere by the way? Fucking his little heart out to make sure he gets his candy on time?

Just goes to show denial is alive and well in the 21st century and if we do not watch out and be nice enough, we can fully expect to be murdered or beated non-consensually of course by our SO as we left him no other choice. As I said before, get real.

Catalina

You know, you can tell me 100 times 100 ways that a post like this was not intended in a patronizing or sarcastic voice, I'm just having trouble buying.

Not that that's a bad thing, a person is certainly entitled to sarcasm and patronizing. I just find that backpedaling and insisting "oh no no no not what I meant at all" is an amusing way of coping with the fact that nobody's going to thank you for taking the time to ridicule their views, or point out their moral lacking.

Not meant to ridicule?

I reiterate:

It may surprise you to know women have been freed of the yoke of men's guilt for the last few decades now and do not have to take the blame for their mistakes, nor protect them from themselves.

Gosh, I'm glad you overturned that rock over my head, I thought I'd ring in 2004 underneath it.

I'm from NYC, we also tend to say exactly what we think and when. I fully expect to be called on my shit, too.

If five or six people of above-average intellect tell me I sound judgemental, patronizing, arrogant, or some derivative thereof, I might start thinking it's not mass hysteria or a rash of totally unrelated overractions.

 

[Netzach]

Yes it's a shitty feeling to be cheated on, I can't imagine it's not.

I would not go hacking into anything of an ex-lover's, as much for my own sanity as for any respect for privacy.

(and IMO, the no-privacy is NOT retroactive. The moment a sub is an ex sub, an act like that, screams violation to me. But obviously, we have ethical differences, not bad or good, just how it is.)

My perspective, is, of course, colored by perceptions and experiences.

It's also a shitty feeling to love someone since you were only 19 (what the fuck do you know?) and to try and tell him, every way you know, to have the conversation again and again, to try and convince him to spank you if it's all he's comfortable with and you are a Top, it's a really shitty feeling. Adult exchanges are full of shitty feelings and shitty things we do to each other.

I have cheated, stuck the one foot in and pulled it out again, my experience with it was almost identical, emotionally, to Quint's.

But someone else may be more capable of functioning that way, I just know I wasn't. What other people can and can't do is nothing I'm so sure of.

Whose fault it is, to me, is a total non-issue. His fault, her fault, mine, yours.... If someone is doing the best they are capable of with the tools and situations they have, I consider that. That's all I've ever said. Laying blame or flinging it around is as pointless an excercise as anything.

 

[Caitlynne]

If five or six people of above-average intellect tell me I sound judgemental, patronizing, arrogant, or some derivative thereof, I might start thinking it's not mass hysteria or a rash of totally unrelated overractions.

I'll admit I lost my sense of humor in this thread a while ago and had decided to just stay clear of it.. I'm usually not much interested in going back and forth explaining myself. I said what I had to say, tried to clarify and that's usually it for me. Beyond that is sheer mental masochism, and I'm not an intellectual masochist nor do I have patience with some people's self-absorbtion that I know I should have. (I'm working on that)

Still, like a train wreck that you just can't help but stop and look at, I peeked in again.......

N ~ Thank you for the best laugh I've had since I joined this discussion, and a good laugh certainly was needed here.

C ~ Since I'm here again, I might as well say what's on my mind. (I'm told by those that really know me I need to work on this too) Alas, I cannot resist indulging myself.

I decided to just let you be because it dawned on me that you are not arrogant or even patronizing... and despite your self-proclaimed expertise in just about everything on the planet, all dressed up in flowery lauguage, meant I am sure to impress us all, you are not even a narrow minded elitist.

No, you are in fact, nothing more than a well educated troll. And I'll give it to you, I took the bait!

~ Cait

 

[rosco rathbone]

"My relationships have always been open and I have had this standing rule, if my partner wanted to fuck anyone whatsoever be it animal, human or furniture as long as she would tell me beforehand or tell me afterwards and then be punished for not telling me beforehand I would have no problem with it."

Odd; I am the same exact way. Except sometimes punish even with foreknowledge. (Only way to pacify the jealous man in me). And have been cheated on all the same. I just said "OK, do what you have to do, but not with me around. I can't take the pain".

I don't think I'd ever go into a relationship with the hard rule "no cheating". That would feel to me like giving way too much power to the other. To me, power comes from flexibility. I don't want to say "here's how to hurt me-do this and you are out". I may or may not have that reaction to the circumstance; depending on many things. I may deal with it or choose not to. I'm definitely not going to lay it on the table up front.

 

[rosco rathbone]

my personal guiding force is focused more in Buddhism and my lifelong fight against discrimination and oppression in all forms.

That's cool. I practice the Bhuddist discipline of stopping thoughts; but my personal belief is in an impersonal and predatory universe where might makes right.

You'd actually like it at ms. com. There are a lot of very accomplished women there-comp lit professors and the like-who are also in the habit of beginning every other post with a rundown of their c.v.; a kneejerk reaction, one assumes, to a lifetime of hearing that "girls can't be smart".

 

[incubus'_sub]

Hi everyone. This is my first post although I've been reading the discussions for some time.

I, too, have been angered and dismayed by the holier than thou (and better read, smarter, better educated etc etc) comments of some.

Let us hope that they never have to face a moral dilemma in their black & white world. May they never have to face the difficult choices that some of us are forced to make in the real world. None of us wants to cause hurt to others, particularly those whom we have loved, however we all grow older, hopefully wiser and sometimes we outgrow our partners. It happens and sometimes you are not even aware of the widening gulf until you meet another.......

I met my Master, Incubus Dark. I fell in love with who he is and what he is. After so many years I found myself, who I am and what I am. Yes, I even cheated for a short period of time until I felt able to make the decision to leave a very comfortable and settled vanilla relationship.

So I ask the superior ones, what would be your very honest choice? Stay in the old relationship (just say "no" !!) with a partner who was made aware of my needs but chose deliberately to ignore them and hope they'd go away, thereby not being true to myself, but saving him from hurt? Or, just leaving him (hurting him in the process) without truly knowing the full implications of such a different lifestyle, however natural it seemed to me? Or maybe, just maybe, it was indeed right to wait a bit, combat my emotions and try to make an informed, reasonable decision about what was really best for the rest of my life and best for the others I cared about.

 

[Netzach]

To me, power comes from flexibility.

This is the most interesting notion to emerge from this unruly sandbox yet.

A lovely aphorism, wish I'd gotten there first, in fact.

What was it you'd pegged me with, "I reserve the right to contradict myself?" or something to that effect.

Yep.

 

[Netzach]

I'm also informed by Buddhist doctrine, might doesn't make right in my world, but shit, definitely, unquestionably, happens.

 

[Temptress_1960]

Every now and then, someone puts the idea I have into words so perfectly that I am just amazed by it.

Thanks, Netzach. Your response to catalina said it way better than I ever could.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Hi everyone. This is my first post although I've been reading the discussions for some time.

I, too, have been angered and dismayed by the holier than thou (and better read, smarter, better educated etc etc) comments of some.

Let us hope that they never have to face a moral dilemma in their black & white world. May they never have to face the difficult choices that some of us are forced to make in the real world. None of us wants to cause hurt to others, particularly those whom we have loved, however we all grow older, hopefully wiser and sometimes we outgrow our partners. It happens and sometimes you are not even aware of the widening gulf until you meet another.......

I met my Master, Incubus Dark. I fell in love with who he is and what he is. After so many years I found myself, who I am and what I am. Yes, I even cheated for a short period of time until I felt able to make the decision to leave a very comfortable and settled vanilla relationship.

So I ask the superior ones, what would be your very honest choice? Stay in the old relationship (just say "no" !!) with a partner who was made aware of my needs but chose deliberately to ignore them and hope they'd go away, thereby not being true to myself, but saving him from hurt? Or, just leaving him (hurting him in the process) without truly knowing the full implications of such a different lifestyle, however natural it seemed to me? Or maybe, just maybe, it was indeed right to wait a bit, combat my emotions and try to make an informed, reasonable decision about what was really best for the rest of my life and best for the others I cared about.

This post outlines my exact beef with cheating and infidelity.(sorry to use you as an example, no hard feelings?)

If the relationship is bad, then you should leave it regardless of what you may or may not have after it! I don't think you should base leaving a marriage on anything except whether the relationship works for you. To use another person as a 'safety net' while exploring other relationships seems so utterly wrong to me.

When you enter a committed relationship, you have given up your right to only think of yoursefl and your needs. If that isn't what you want, then you shouldn't get into a committed relationship...and if your needs change, you should leave.

 

[catalina_francisco]

So I ask the superior ones, what would be your very honest choice? Stay in the old relationship (just say "no" !!) with a partner who was made aware of my needs but chose deliberately to ignore them and hope they'd go away, thereby not being true to myself, but saving him from hurt? Or, just leaving him (hurting him in the process) without truly knowing the full implications of such a different lifestyle, however natural it seemed to me? Or maybe, just maybe, it was indeed right to wait a bit, combat my emotions and try to make an informed, reasonable decision about what was really best for the rest of my life and best for the others I cared about.

Thought it was clear from what had been posted....if you're not happy leave...as you did it seems....as you said, either way they are hurt but at least with honesty in the equation the negative effects are lessened and easier to deal with. I, of course take offence yet again at the slandering/patronising tones of 'superior ones' which from previous converstaions seems to be behaviour and judgemenatalism far opposite to your D. To address your issue with superiority...it is just your opinion and your words and if you took the time to read, which presumably you have, but also comprehend what is read, you will see we, and others who do not share your views for our personal choices, do not say we are superior or lay claim to it, instead agreeing each has the right to their view.

Unfortunately, it seems those who label others are the ones who see themselves supreior as I see it as they continually attack the ones who express an opinion as is the same right they are allowed. As to moral choices, I would like to guess I have likely had to make more than you ever will...and no it is not easy but a lot harder if you drift with no idea whatsoever what matters to you. In future, think before judging and denying others the right to freely express themselves as you see your given right....which it should be but seems a little one sided.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Every now and then, someone puts the idea I have into words so perfectly that I am just amazed by it.

Thanks, Netzach. Your response to catalina said it way better than I ever could.

Glad you found it so enlightening....must come from a different 'doctrine' to the one I am familiar with. Mine does not preach perfection and labeling, admits human frailties, and has an over riding desire to think of the way your behaviour affects others before yourself.

C

 

[catalina_francisco]

That's cool. I practice the Bhuddist discipline of stopping thoughts; but my personal belief is in an impersonal and predatory universe where might makes right.

You'd actually like it at ms. com. There are a lot of very accomplished women there-comp lit professors and the like-who are also in the habit of beginning every other post with a rundown of their c.v.; a kneejerk reaction, one assumes, to a lifetime of hearing that "girls can't be smart".

Interesting you may find it, but not I, but then I'm not male I guess. Seems one thing predominant in feminist philosophy you missed is a degree or education is not the essence or necessary, especially if you don't practice what you say, or begin to understand. As to myself, I don't have one close friend who has a degree as it is not who I am, or where I am at, or have been. My own degree I obtained a few years ago while overcoming many difficulties others find frightening to even contemplate, but only pursued it as I needed it to be allowed achieve what I wanted, not because I thought it made me better.

Funnily enough though many feel those with degrees do it for that reason and show their own insecurities in doing so, even if they have one themselves. What such thinkers fail to understand is a thirst to learn which has been with me, and many, since a child, so a degree changed nothing but provide the piece of paper required by the powers that be and enable me to use the opportunity to benifit others. As a child I took books where others took their toys. It is me and I don't expect to have to apologise for that, the same as I do not ask you to apologise for who you are.

I note Netzach must have a 2 degree lover/SO...for me I just need honest and intelligent enough to understand reality, which 10 degrees don't necessarily fulfil if the holder cannot apply the knowledge to lived reality. In other words you may have the highest IQ on earth, but as a person not have a clue how to even feed yourself, or understand why people differ without necessarily being wrong, or supposedly superior/inferior. I was raised with ethics and I fail to see why I have to adopt the ethics of every Tom, Dick, or Harry who feels slighted or confronted by that simple fact, just to make them feel better about themselves....that is their responsibilty.

Would imagine to try and fit with all of you to your satisdfaction, I would be so fucked up in the head trying to remember who I was each day, dependent on who I was speaking with, not who I was in reality. I am me, you are you....if you find issue with that and feel judged or that asserting my right to speak makes me superior, so be it....your hang up and words, not mine. Interestingly, I have never found anyone of you support your claims with a post of ours saying the words 'we are superior to you', or 'we know we are better'. Strange that.

C

 

[catalina_francisco]

The something new I learned today......Shakespeare wrote of an affair he had with a married woman and the subsequent social disease he contracted in the name of love, and wished he could have turned back the clock.....is this risk?

C

 

[catalina_francisco]

Yes it's a shitty feeling to be cheated on, I can't imagine it's not.

I would not go hacking into anything of an ex-lover's, as much for my own sanity as for any respect for privacy.

(and IMO, the no-privacy is NOT retroactive. The moment a sub is an ex sub, an act like that, screams violation to me. But obviously, we have ethical differences, not bad or good, just how it is.)

About the privacy question, well we have different opinions on that. During the time she was my slave she was not allowed any privacy and everything produced by her during that time was and is my property. She knew that, I did not break any rules in our agreement, this is standard for me in any relationship I have had (except in vanilla of course). And of course having the skill set makes it a lot easier to do.

I try not to judge people on what they say but on how they act. And past experiences are carried forward in life; I have just the 'slightest' problem accepting the same message over an over again from the same sources but different people. I can not accept, having been the cheated on side, that it is to better to lie and play the cloak and dagger than to be honest.

Yes it is fucking hard to tell the truth and yes it is fucking painful. Although I have not had your experiences I have had mine and those also were not easy and yes those also were extremely painful.

It is not about guilt or blame, like I said, the relationship was ending in my case and the both of us were unhappy with it. But you know what? It feels fucking shit to be betrayed by someone you trust, to have been used as a safety net and to have been lied to for almost a year.

It seems people forget what you are doing to the other side. Yes it all very well searching and exploring until you know what you want, But if you are in a relationship, you have made an unwritten agreement to share the good and the bad with your SO. There is supposed to be trust and honesty between the parties involved, be it in a vanilla or a BDSM relationship. What kind of relationship are you having anyway if you can not tell the truth and be honest? Is it not better to make a clean cut, than create festering wounds?

To me it just smells of self interest, cloaked in a nice little lie about not wanting to hurt the other side. I know there are exceptions and I know that not everyone that cheats is the devil reborn. And yes I am going to be repetitive again IMO if you cheat just be honest about it, do not justify the cheating by claiming that you have been pushed towards it, that the only reason you do not tell your partner is for their own good. At least be honest about it, you cheat because you want to cheat. I can respect honesty; but I can not respect lies and dishonesty. In my experience cheating is bad, very bad and it hurts but that passes what stays there for a much longer time is the feeling of betrayal, the feeling of having been used, to know that while you where trying to talk through the problems, trying to do your best, behind your back you where lied to, cheated upon and basically treated as a piece of shit, for me at least it made it a 1000 times worse.

Just put yourself in the shoes of who is being cheated upon. To the ones that cheat or have cheated I asked them to change the roles in your mind, try to imagine how it feels when you are cheated on.

I have heard stories like those of Quint, who has cheated and has been completely honest and open about it. Although I can not agree with her actions I can respect her for her truthfulness and openness.

And I have heard pages long of remarks on how superior I am, that I judge everyone, some have even gone as far as to say that I should not post here anymore, or words similar to that. Well I am not more honourable or rightful then anyone else, I am a human being with flaws and good points, and I am a human being that feels a kick in the groin every single time I read that it is all for the good of the party that has been cheated on to lie, to be dishonest and to hide the truth. So yes maybe I am a bit strong in my words but have not both sides, if there can be said that there are sides in this matter, been extremely ‘strong’ in their wording of things?

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Not letting this one go so easily

You know, you can tell me 100 times 100 ways that a post like this was not intended in a patronizing or sarcastic voice, I'm just having trouble buying.

If five or six people of above-average intellect tell me I sound judgemental, patronizing, arrogant, or some derivative thereof, I might start thinking it's not mass hysteria or a rash of totally unrelated overractions.

That's fine N, but if this last sentence is your rationale then I am still doing okay as I guess it equates that if the number saying I am not the above named things outweight the ones that do 3-1, I must not be the monster you still keep trying to portray me to be.

Maybe you should read and accept words and not try to deny what a person says as I would think even you would agree you have much better idea of what your thoughts and words mean , than do I....and as such, the same applies...and I am not back peddaling as u suggest. I have nothing to apologise for when expressing my opinion and reiterating boringly repeatedly I acknowledge everyone's right to their own, including you. I will not bother again as there are none so blind as those who cannot see the saying goes, and so I could say it a thousand times and still you are going to come back with the interpretation you prefer. To each their own.

Catalina

 

[Temptress_1960]

I don't believe I have ever said that cheating was the right thing to do.

What I have said, or meant to say, was that I could understand factors in people's lives that led to them cheating on their spouse/SO. And that it didn't make them evil, or even inherently unethical.

That in my younger days, I saw cheating as a black and white issue: Cheating is wrong, just leave if you want to cheat.

With age and experience and better understanding of myself, I see a lot more grey areas than I used to. That doesn't mean that I plan to cheat, or feel that it's ok to do so, it just means that I can see some of the factors that may lead people to make that choice. I would hope that by recognizing these factors, I will try not to make choices that lead me to that position.

But should I at some point find that cheating on my spouse/SO is the lesser of evils, I am not going to wallow in guilt and self-condemnation. One thing I have learned over the years is to forgive myself for not being perfect, and just try to do better the next time.

I'm not going to comment on the impression I get from your remarks, Catalina, as I've already done so in the other thread. And, in my last post, the comments I was agreeing with Netzach about were the ones in her post where she talks about that impression.