Thought I'd come visit for the holidays and...

[Primalex]

Most masochists don't do it "just for the pain" either. They're in it for catharsis or orgasms or lulz or to prove something. Pain isn't the ends, no kidding.

Smart move. Declaring everyone who accepts pain as masochist - and therefore, he enjoys it, as he is a masochist. From this position it's quite comfortable to declare that everyone is a masochist.

In the end: Everyone who gets an injection from a doctor is a masochist.

This is so blatant bullshit, no idea why you come up with this.

You are a masochist, if receiving pain arouses you.
You are a sadist, if dealing pain arouses you.

That's it!
If you beat up some guy in a bar because he insulted your girl, then you are not a sadist.
If you ask for getting beaten up, because voices told you that it's the right thing and that you deserve it, then you are not a masochist.

 

[Netzach]

Smart move. Declaring everyone who accepts pain as masochist - and therefore, he enjoys it, as he is a masochist. From this position it's quite comfortable to declare that everyone is a masochist.

In the end: Everyone who gets an injection from a doctor is a masochist.

This is so blatant bullshit, no idea why you come up with this.

You are a masochist, if receiving pain arouses you.
You are a sadist, if dealing pain arouses you.

That's it!
If you beat up some guy in a bar because he insulted your girl, then you are not a sadist.
If you ask for getting beaten up, because voices told you that it's the right thing and that you deserve it, then you are not a masochist.

Yes. That's exactly what I was saying. You got me. Are you always this good with straw men or am I just the person who came up in your 20 sided die roll this week?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not that you care, but I find this really hot. I get extremely pushy emotional maso cuckold clients sometimes and the thought of one of those with the inclination being smart enough to hook up with a service minded slave instead of socially inept enough to be pestering the likes of me is twisty hot and novel. Damn. It's outside the cliche call of femsub duty stuff in a very cool fashion.

It reminds me of the original Sacher Masoch's scripts. He had very precise ways in which he wanted to be humiliated, would not tolerate any departure...

 

[Netzach]

It reminds me of the original Sacher Masoch's scripts. He had very precise ways in which he wanted to be humiliated, would not tolerate any departure...

Right. She embellishes and it's game over.

 

[JMohegan]

*snerk* Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, JM. I don't do the PC valediction.

Interesting idea. I was just saying the other day regarding blowjobs that a mouth is a mouth, right? But I have very, very rarely in my life been attracted to a man.

That's a thought I hadn't had, yet. The causing pain thing might be all about control. Part of it, for sure, is that she allows it. But when it's what she craves, are we still talking the same dynamic?

I'd say that when it comes to friendly greetings, it's the recipient's preference that matters. Hence the 'friendly.' Had I known your personal preference, I would have said: Happy New Year, hope your Christmas was merry.

As for "what she craves" - to be honest, I don't see how a sadistic urge gets satisfied in servicing that. But as you say, this stuff gets twisty.

 

[Netzach]

I'd say that when it comes to friendly greetings, it's the recipient's preference that matters. Hence the 'friendly.' Had I known your personal preference, I would have said: Happy New Year, hope your Christmas was merry.

As for "what she craves" - to be honest, I don't see how a sadistic urge gets satisfied in servicing that. But as you say, this stuff gets twisty.

?

She likes to get spanked. Old fashioned OTK. Maybe you don't like that, I'm just going with one of my crowd pleasers that I like.

Even with a spanko who loves it, is there nothing about the quiver of the ass, the pink of the buttcheek that kinda warms your blood? Maybe that's not really the darkest of sadistic impulses, and I'd need to dig deeper myself, but I can't say it's not kind of ok, kind of takes the edge off like a handful of almonds till dinner.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

eh... threads rarely ever stay on topic. Deal with it.

Oh, you're telling that to someone from the GB.

Lolz. So many lolz.

 

[JMohegan]

?

She likes to get spanked. Old fashioned OTK. Maybe you don't like that, I'm just going with one of my crowd pleasers that I like.

Even with a spanko who loves it, is there nothing about the quiver of the ass, the pink of the buttcheek that kinda warms your blood? Maybe that's not really the darkest of sadistic impulses, and I'd need to dig deeper myself, but I can't say it's not kind of ok, kind of takes the edge off like a handful of almonds till dinner.

Yes, of course it warms the blood. More than "kinda."

But that's not the part of my psyche that I'd term sadistic. Possibly I'm just too literal.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, of course it warms the blood. More than "kinda."

But that's not the part of my psyche that I'd term sadistic. Possibly I'm just too literal.

No that makes sense. I wish there was a good word for that kind of stuff. "Fun for me, not fun but still sorta fun for you" It's not the same as "fun for me, sucks to be you, oh well."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Right. She embellishes and it's game over.

Actually, his wife-- who was totally tricked into getting with him-- objected to some of the embellishments, like-- if he had to be whipped, why shouldn't she do it, why have the servants whip him? Because he wanted the servants to whip him, not his Mistress, that's why not.

His biography is a sad and funny read.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

...present you all with this quote from Freud:


A person who feels pleasure in producing pain in someone else in a sexual relationship is also capable of enjoying as pleasure any pain which he may himself derive from sexual relations. A sadist is always at the same time a masochist.

I was going to post this in my usual home, the GB, but a lot of people there are vanilla types who shit all over those of us who aren't. I was curious about what you all think. So have at it, BDSM types. Is Freud right about that? Are all of us who prefer to hold the whip than feel it really switches (note ingenious pun, intended)?

I'm pretty sure this does apply to me, though I still prefer to inflict rather than suffer. It gets twisty when I think too much about it.

Having read this whole thread, and gone back to this post, I can see the sense in the Frued quote.

It might just be the way I'm reading it though. I'm not reading it as 'the giver of pain also wants to bend over and take their spanking as well' but as 'the giver of pain is finding that pleasurable, and therefore deriving pleasure from pain, ergo, a masochist.'

The language and logic of it is all twisted up, but it makes sense to me. I don't know if it's correct, though. But if you think about it without pain being an actual physical sensation, and just a concept, then it might work. Eh. I dunno. I'm gonna call logical fallacy on that, I think.

Does it work the other way around? That the receiver of pain is deriving pleasure from the infliction of pain, and is therefore also a sadist?

 

[Stella_Omega]

My hypothesis is that-- for some of us, not for all-- it's what the neurologists call "Mirror neuron" action, which produces a form empathic sensatory experience, either a ghost of the pain or a sympathetic pleasure...

Freud's worst fault was his sweeping, universal language. And I've seen that habit in many cokeheads...

 

[graceanne]

Well, it's certainly an interesting hypothesis. I think your son is an outlier, though. I don't know that it's good sense to take him as an example of the larger set. That said, a person with a diminished sensorium would very likely wish for more intense stimulus, and could certainly drift into masochism.

An outlier?

That said, I'm not saying that all masochists are like my son, just that I think that some are.

 

[Stella_Omega]

An outlier?

That said, I'm not saying that all masochists are like my son, just that I think that some are.

Or sometimes that's a temporary condition. I remember very clearly a time when (It seemed to me) I felt very little on my skin beyond basic pressure, and I craved stinging sensations.

 

[YourCaptor]

Argumentum ad hominem. Expand?

What?

Say freud published today, his work would be meant for coffee tables not journals.

 

[Peregrinator]

LOL, F is my Master and husband...he seems to like me to perform minor surgery on him whenever he thinks it is needed...positively refuses to go near a doctor. The worst was when he had me operate on a badly ingrown toenail early in our relationship...ended up having to cut down to the bone (yes, I could see the bone clearly in all its glory) and remove bits and pieces of nail which had imbedded themselves deep in the flesh. He has a wonderful ability to block pain, though it has let him down a couple of times when he lost focus. Fortunately for the toe operation he maintained it, and I didn't succumb to the desire to pass out, nor was there any infection though it took weeks to heal due to the depth.

Catalina

Catalina

I see. He sounds like quite a guy. There are a lot of nerves in a toe...

1) This was essentially my point. In modern psychology Freuds theories are irrelevant. He may be the grandfather of modern psychology, but hes the crazy coked out grandfather locked in the attic that psychologists prefer not to talk about, and 2) universaly sigh every time his name is brought up.

3) Freuds name does not lend currency to your arguement, quite the opposite.



4) Have you ever met a coke head? Granted his addiction did not span his entire profesional life, just from his impeatus to cocaine unto his death.



5) eh... threads rarely ever stay on topic. Deal with it. A thread based on one of freud's crackpot theories hardly deserves to anyway.



6) I've seen your arguement, that sadism and masochism are essentially the same thing, here before. It's old and invalid, and in the past, was taken pretty offensively.

But in the name of "lets talk about this," sure; I'll bite.

7) I really like biting. I thouroughly dislike pain, there's nothing secret about it. In very specific contexts, being on the recieving end of pain works as nurturing touch for me, but I still intensely dislike feeling the pain, and would likely get as much or more out of the interaction with a caress. Not remotely the same thought process, headspace, or thrill as sinking my teeth into someones shoulder while I'm fucking them, or someone's arm, just cuz they let their guard down, and there are generally not endorphins involved in either case there.

8) Sure you could try to twist and wrangle my above paragraph to vindicate freud's point, but that would require elaborating on one or the other to twist it into something more than the original statement, which in turn is the same kind of absolute bullshit you get when discussing the bible.

9) So there you go, universal generalization debunked. Possible in some cases, however obscure? Sure I guess whatever. Can't prove impossiblity, but doesn't necesarily make it worth discussing either.

1) I know a number of people working in psychology who would disagree that he's irrelevant.

2) I also know a few almost straight Freudian psychologists. One of them is the head of psychology for the PA state psychiatric hospital, a system that is used by many other states as a model and is seen as progressive and forward-looking.

3) I'm not sure I'm actually making an argument here. I'm more looking for people's thoughts on the quote.

4) Yes, many in my time working in mental health (5 years). Never seen the word "impeatus" before. What does it mean? I can guess from context, but specifically?

5) Don't patronize me.

6) How very kind of you to engage in a conversation.

7) I see. You seem to be very far along the spectrum toward "giver" and far from "receiver" of pain. This paragraph makes sense to me.

8) I won't. I was just curious to see how people here would react to the quote. I'm not arguing; I'm trying to have a conversation.

9) If you don't think it worth discussing, then stop discussing it. I do appreciate the paragraph I labeled #7, however.

I focus on my desires for other people while we're fucking, talk to him about the ways they turn me on (implicitly setting up comparisons with him), serve him sexually for the sole purpose of gaining permission to pursue other relationships, and use his body explicitly to practice and prepare myself for activities I'm planning on sharing with others.

Though it's easy for me to have desires for other people , it isn't so comfortable to share them with him. He's quite explicit about what he wants, and how I should deliver it. He uses his dominant position in the relationship to push it into areas he wants to touch. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing out the script he's written for me, which isn't so fun, even if it does get him off.

We're both happiest when it's genuine.

What an interesting dynamic. I love it. I think maybe we should continue this in PM.

 

[Peregrinator]

I'd say that when it comes to friendly greetings, it's the recipient's preference that matters. Hence the 'friendly.' Had I known your personal preference, I would have said: Happy New Year, hope your Christmas was merry.

As for "what she craves" - to be honest, I don't see how a sadistic urge gets satisfied in servicing that. But as you say, this stuff gets twisty.

Of course you're right. I was just trying to be all GB and shit.

It is twisty. It's like, will you tolerate me beating you and hate it, but let me do it anyway, or will you agree to be beaten and love it? I had a subbie once who hated pain, but begged me to whip her. That was the shit, you know?

Oh, you're telling that to someone from the GB.

Lolz. So many lolz.

Oh, ffs, Lizzie. We're not ALL the same. That said, I've posted many a time that a Perg Thread (most GB people call me Perg) is an invitation to post anything at all, relevant or not.

Having read this whole thread, and gone back to this post, I can see the sense in the Frued quote.

It might just be the way I'm reading it though. I'm not reading it as 'the giver of pain also wants to bend over and take their spanking as well' but as 'the giver of pain is finding that pleasurable, and therefore deriving pleasure from pain, ergo, a masochist.'

The language and logic of it is all twisted up, but it makes sense to me. I don't know if it's correct, though. But if you think about it without pain being an actual physical sensation, and just a concept, then it might work. Eh. I dunno. I'm gonna call logical fallacy on that, I think.

Does it work the other way around? That the receiver of pain is deriving pleasure from the infliction of pain, and is therefore also a sadist?

I think what's interesting is to explore what the whipper is thinking while she whips. Is she thinking "Yeah, take the pain, you submissive bitch," or "Take the pain, I bet it feels great?"

An outlier?

That said, I'm not saying that all masochists are like my son, just that I think that some are.

An outlier is a data point that doesn't fit the curve. I doubt anyone thought you were saying that. I suspect some masochists are like your son.

What?

Say freud published today, his work would be meant for coffee tables not journals.

Meant for? I think Freud, though I'm not a huge fan generally, would still have been taken seriously today. He gets shit on in the popular literature, but he's still seen as a giant in the industry.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Had planned on putting my two cents in but confused myself as I am one of those Toppish Switchy Sadistic pain sluts....

Hell give me a few minutes...I will come back to it and try to explain what I think....

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Oh, ffs, Lizzie. We're not ALL the same. That said, I've posted many a time that a Perg Thread (most GB people call me Perg) is an invitation to post anything at all, relevant or not.

All I meant was that to tell you to 'deal with it' re: a thread diversion, was pointless, cos you'd be kind of used to it, hanging out in the GB.

And as you've also stated here yourself, that diversions are fine. So again, telling you to deal with it was *funny* so I'll continue to lolz. Alright?

I think what's interesting is to explore what the whipper is thinking while she whips. Is she thinking "Yeah, take the pain, you submissive bitch," or "Take the pain, I bet it feels great?"

Or could it be "yeah, take that pain, making you feel that makes me feel great"?

I think you'd be better placed to answer that than I would be. I'm generally not trying to work out motivations at that point. I'm just trying to remember how to breathe.

I think that Freud statement works conceptually, but not realistically.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Meant for? I think Freud, though I'm not a huge fan generally, would still have been taken seriously today. He gets shit on in the popular literature, but he's still seen as a giant in the industry.

What industry?

If Freud were active today, I bet he would be a completely different theorist. He was one of the first, and the mistakes he made were, partly, due to the dearth of research available. He had no sense of the s ientific method, though, and was all too prone to twist his evidence to suit his theory.

His other problems were, of course, that he, like so many other Victorians/Edwardians, wanted to formulate Universal Trooths-- much more Noble than mere facts, doncha know. And so, Oedipus, that poor bastard, was shoved into modern day mythos, along with Electra-- and wow did he ever get that one wrong-- as if the entire human race were middle class Viennese with a shit fetish... Bless his heart.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Relevent or not, Freud is mentioned and studied if you enrol to study psychology so as in many things, hindsight is not necessarily the sign of superior intellect, just an opinion which will itself be viewed in hindsight at some point in the future....it is far easier to dabble and criticise negatively from a point of hindsight than to actually have the courage to explore and say something original and constructive in the now.

Catalina

 

[Stella_Omega]

Relevent or not, Freud is mentioned and studied if you enrol to study psychology so as in many things, hindsight is not necessarily the sign of superior intellect, just an opinion which will itself be viewed in hindsight at some point in the future....it is far easier to dabble and criticise negatively from a point of hindsight than to actually have the courage to explore and say something original and constructive in the now.

Catalina

Did you notice my earlier post about a possible neurological connection between sadist and masochist? That's postive and also original-- to this thread, at least...

 

[radepor]

Welcome for the holidays!

I think it's insane for anyone to speak in generalities. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact I believe psychiatrists/psychologists practice licensed voodoo? Hope I never sit on jury where a psychiatrist is called to testify; I'd get up, walk out and get fined and/or jailed myself.

Having said that, I can only speak for myself. I could hurt someone a little; not much, but a little; I enjoy it a little; not much, but a little. I enjoy receiving pain somewhat more than inflicting it.

Again, happy holidays...

...present you all with this quote from Freud:


A person who feels pleasure in producing pain in someone else in a sexual relationship is also capable of enjoying as pleasure any pain which he may himself derive from sexual relations. A sadist is always at the same time a masochist.

I was going to post this in my usual home, the GB, but a lot of people there are vanilla types who shit all over those of us who aren't. I was curious about what you all think. So have at it, BDSM types. Is Freud right about that? Are all of us who prefer to hold the whip than feel it really switches (note ingenious pun, intended)?

I'm pretty sure this does apply to me, though I still prefer to inflict rather than suffer. It gets twisty when I think too much about it.

 

[Peregrinator]

All I meant was that to tell you to 'deal with it' re: a thread diversion, was pointless, cos you'd be kind of used to it, hanging out in the GB.

And as you've also stated here yourself, that diversions are fine. So again, telling you to deal with it was *funny* so I'll continue to lolz. Alright?




Or could it be "yeah, take that pain, making you feel that makes me feel great"?

I think you'd be better placed to answer that than I would be. I'm generally not trying to work out motivations at that point. I'm just trying to remember how to breathe.

I think that Freud statement works conceptually, but not realistically.

Of course it's all right! Lolz all you want! I like lolz.

That's also a possibility, for sure. I think it might be a subset of my first hypothetical, though.

Hmmm. How come every time I meet a serious subbie on here she's in a different time zone?

What industry?

If Freud were active today, I bet he would be a completely different theorist. He was one of the first, and the mistakes he made were, partly, due to the dearth of research available. He had no sense of the s ientific method, though, and was all too prone to twist his evidence to suit his theory.

His other problems were, of course, that he, like so many other Victorians/Edwardians, wanted to formulate Universal Trooths-- much more Noble than mere facts, doncha know. And so, Oedipus, that poor bastard, was shoved into modern day mythos, along with Electra-- and wow did he ever get that one wrong-- as if the entire human race were middle class Viennese with a shit fetish... Bless his heart.

Psychiatry.

He might well be a different guy if he were born today, but he wasn't. To some extent, like all of us, he was a product of his time. And like I said earlier, I'm not a huge fan myself, of Freud or more generally of psychiatry.

I think it's insane for anyone to speak in generalities. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact I believe psychiatrists/psychologists practice licensed voodoo? Hope I never sit on jury where a psychiatrist is called to testify; I'd get up, walk out and get fined and/or jailed myself.

Having said that, I can only speak for myself. I could hurt someone a little; not much, but a little; I enjoy it a little; not much, but a little. I enjoy receiving pain somewhat more than inflicting it.

Again, happy holidays...

I think generalities have their place. That said, I might have the same reaction to a psychiatrist. Then again, being me, I would probably listen, even if in my head I was outside smoking a cigarette.

And to you, belatedly. I hope you had a great time in the last couple weeks.