Thoughts On Submission...What Is It Really?

[babiesmiles]

It is indeed a wonderful lesson, and often far from easy even after taking those steps. The trust undermined is a bit concerning, though I am thinking you could mean it in a way which is not so much that something has been done to undermine your trust in your PYL, but that you might be having the boundaries of that trust tested now it has moved beyond the fun and easy stage? I know I struggle continuously with submission on these levels. I could easily do the things I love, like or can accept easily until the cows come home, but those tougher ones which mean stepping out of my comfort zone, perhaps choosing between what I think is right and he wants, being taken into areas where I fear to tread for a variety of reasons, they continue to make me pull out all my inner strength and meditate on my submission to get through, and even then it is not easy.

Catalina

Thank you for your wise words Cat.

When I said " undermined trust" I meant just that .. the trust in my Master , more a mental than physical thing though . I still think he is a wonderful person and Dominant but someway , somewhere there was a gap in our communication or in understanding and I realized I lost my naive trust in a " wonderful BDSM world ", maybe to be put on the way to rebuilt a more aware one, going through some relation asperities .

 

[lil_slave_rose]

OK, I have decided to be daring and put something out there that always strikes me as odd, to see if perhaps I am the only one, or just not getting something vitally important in the school of submission. Two of the most common things I see mentioned often as being seen as self proclaimed signs someone is submissive are (1) serving the Dominant/PYL first when serving out a meal etc.; and (2) never making a huge decision without talking it over with the PYL. Now I don't see anything wrong with either of these things, but I have never seen them as being proof someone is submissive.

I didn't go to a fancy finishing school for young ladies, but I was raised to always serve everyone before myself, and have found others do the same. Sometimes if I am busy with something else and dinner needs to be served, F might step in and do it, and though he is far from submissive, he will serve everyone else first. To me not only is it just good manners, but it also just makes practical common sense to serve others before yourself, otherwise your plate is sitting there all lonely like while you are still serving. I cannot recall one situation... work, social, family... where this has not been the case of the host or person serving to make sure everyone else is served first....and I never once thought 'sheeesh, another submissive, yay!!', I just thought it was normal. So am I missing something here and it means nearly the whole world is submissive because they serve others first?

As to the decision thing, once again I thought that if you were in a relationship (D/s or vanilla) and a big decision had to be made or a huge purchase, it was normal for you to discuss it with your partner or PYL first. To me, it just once again makes sense and ensures less chance of a big argument and avoids feelings which do everything to make the other person feel they are not in a relationship after all. Isn't it normal to discuss these things anyway? I know growing up my parents always discussed them first, often around the dinner table with input from us if welcomed, and then a decision was made as to what was best. When did it become a sure sign someone was a good submissive? I have no problem with the PYL making the decision themselves, without discussion if they choose, but for a submissive to feel it is sign of their submission to do so puzzles me as it is for me normal in any relationship to discuss it and then make a decision from there....even in ours we usually discuss the idea, especially now it is my duty to keep track of finances, but he makes the decision. I am feeling so like I have missed out on some important development which I always thought was standard behaviour...am I the only one?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/351820055_df11ba7f4e_t.jpg Catalina

i can't think of any one big thing that shows my submission to Master, i can however found a million small things. yes, in past 'nilla relationships i did serve my partner his plate before i fixed mine, it was the way i've seen things done since i was a kid. my mom served everyone else's plates before she ever thought about making her own, the difference with my 'nilla partners was that it was, well, 'nilla. submission is so engrained in my brain that i guess maybe that's why i see these things as 'signs' of my submission. but i also don't feel like i have to PROVE my submission to Him, or to anyone else for that matter. it's who i am and the little things i do for Him show Him my submission. The things He's told me NOT to do, or the things He's told me i WILL do, when i do or don't do those things i'm showing Him my submission. you touched on what you thought was an odd way to show your submission, but what ways cat, do you think is a genuine show of submission? you didn't say your ideas on it....

 

[catalina_francisco]

i can't think of any one big thing that shows my submission to Master, i can however found a million small things. yes, in past 'nilla relationships i did serve my partner his plate before i fixed mine, it was the way i've seen things done since i was a kid. my mom served everyone else's plates before she ever thought about making her own, the difference with my 'nilla partners was that it was, well, 'nilla. submission is so engrained in my brain that i guess maybe that's why i see these things as 'signs' of my submission. but i also don't feel like i have to PROVE my submission to Him, or to anyone else for that matter. it's who i am and the little things i do for Him show Him my submission. The things He's told me NOT to do, or the things He's told me i WILL do, when i do or don't do those things i'm showing Him my submission. you touched on what you thought was an odd way to show your submission, but what ways cat, do you think is a genuine show of submission? you didn't say your ideas on it....

I think people have taken this differently than I meant it. What I see is not 'my' interpretation of people using this to prove their submission, but people saying themselves this is how they show their submission to the one they are submitting to which then lead me to ponder how it is showing submission if as you and others say, including myself, it is what we would and have done all our lives in the vanilla world? What makes it an act of submission? You will find posts all over this and other forums saying 'I show him my submission by always serving him first at dinner...not my words, but the words of those saying this is how they show submission. It is not a contest thing, it is not my submission is better than yours thing, it is about us all looking more closely at our submission perhaps, and how and why we do things as part of that submission. I for one do not want to do something I have always done and then tell him though I did it for everyone else, for him it means I am submitting to him simply because I didn't think about it and assumed he would think I was making some great sacrifice when I actually wasn't dooing anything different...why does it mean that, especially if he has never mentioned it as a need of his?


I am not green or silly enough to think any single act shows submission, and my submission does get tested to the extreme so I am also not under the illusion it is through acts we find easy and fun to do. For me showing submission is a continual act, not an on again off again thing, and selective in its processes and place. But that doesn't mean I don't cvontinually look at what I do, how I ionterpret it, and how he might or does see it. Part of this is probably thanks to him also throughout our journey asking why I see particular things as submitting when he either hasn't requested them or said he finds them attractive, or they have been things I loved doing. What I learned a long time ago is that a common trap many of us fall into is deciding totally independent of our PYL's what is submissive, what is valueable, and what is needed by the PYL without any input from them, and often to the point where a PYL will find it offensive a pyl would take that responsibility on themselves without asking...after all, submission is about submitting, not making the decision for the other and acting on it, but so often in our haste and desire to be perfect (an unattainable state anyway) that is exactly what we do.

What I am hoping will grow from this is for us to perhaps think about what we do and why, and whether we are doing ourselves and our PYL's a disservice by thinking we are doing just the right thing/s. Does that make sense? As to what is a genuine act of submission, to put it briefly I see it as anything the PYL orders or commands. If others feel totally comfortable and secure that they are submitting to their utmost and 100% in the way wanted without room for reflection and even improvement, I envy them....I have never stopped asking and looking at what I do and why and feeling it is never enough, but that is me...I am perfectionist challenged unfortunately even though I know it is impossible, especially with someone who changes the benchmark regularly just to keep things interesting. He doesn't want me perfect, but he wants me to continue to do my best and strive for the unattainable...this thread is just another way I might be able to learn better how to do that.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you for your wise words Cat.

When I said " undermined trust" I meant just that .. the trust in my Master , more a mental than physical thing though . I still think he is a wonderful person and Dominant but someway , somewhere there was a gap in our communication or in understanding and I realized I lost my naive trust in a " wonderful BDSM world ", maybe to be put on the way to rebuilt a more aware one, going through some relation asperities .

I actually think this is natural. I used to have that wonderful state of blind trust, submission, practically hero worship...he forced me to move beyond that and look at things realistically and in some ways, though he sometimes dreams of those days when it was so much easier, in some ways he values the submission he now has which is angst ridden, at times hesitant and/or full of fear, and always done with thought and acute awareness instead of blind obedience which did not seek or want to understand why he asked those things of me. It was a painful step to take, but I believe it has made us stronger as I now understand more why he wants partuclar things, what he is trying to acheive, and how he thrives on my difficulties and triumphs in my struggles and successes.

Catalina

 

[pellso27]

best described in one word

Needy.......................just a fun way to get attention and made to feel worthy

 

[CutieMouse]

Needy.......................just a fun way to get attention and made to feel worthy

Out of curiosity, doees that mean when you see a needy person, you mentally identify them as submissive? Does it mean when you see a self-sufficient person, who isn't terribly needy, who identifies themself as submissive, it doesn't compute for you?

 

[BiBunny]

Ok, I'm back to try and give my own insight. I make no promises about how insightful it'll be, though! (A paper on John Donne's use of conceit in his poetry, and how that makes his poems more relevant to modern readers has more or less stretched my brain to the limits of its creativity. Read: Bunny's tired of pulling stuff out of her ass.)

Anyway, I can't think of any concrete examples off the top of my head as "Acts of my Submission" (note the capital letters). Hell, if we really want to twist it around, since both Master and I are switches, on the occasions that I tie his little painslut ass up, then I'm still submitting because that's what he wants, right? (Ok, maybe that's another thread.) Submission is doing what he wants, if for no other reason than he wants it. (How's that for circular reasoning? ) If I stand on my head and sing in the living room because he wants me to, that's a Sign of my Submission to outside observers. If I stand on my head and sing in the middle of the street because I think it's a good idea at the time, it's likely to get me sent to a mental institution. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all about context for me.

As for cat's original dinner example, I've never considered that an act of submission. My mother drilled into me for years the Things a Southern Lady Does. Serving everyone else first is one of them. To this day, I still refuse to eat a bite before everyone else at the table has begun eating. To do otherwise is, in my mind, arrogant and rude. I'm a stickler for table manners, and I'm grateful that B. was raised a Southern Gentleman as well. He may use me as his own personal urinal in private, but, by God, you can bet that when we sit down to eat, he's going to pull the chair out for me. Does that make me any less submissive or him any less dominant? Nope.

In my everyday life, I'm fiercely--some may even say psychotically--independent. That was one reason it was so hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of submission. I'm still very independent. I don't need B. to make all my decisions for me. In fact, if I started consulting with him on every little thing, he'd laugh at me at first and then probably start getting really irritated with me. Half the reason he enjoys my submission so much is that, number one, it was so hard to come by, and, number two, I'm not one of those needy, annoying subs who depends on him for every little thing. I relish the control he has over the areas of my life he chooses to control, and I can contend with the others myself.

Well, I guess the conclusion of that long-winded post is that I do what he says, whatever it may be. Things that are ingrained in me already, like serving others first at the table and washing my hair every day, I don't consider part of my submission to him. My submission stems from the control I've handed over to him, and my actions are just reflections of that fact, not anything that can stand on its own as a huge Act of my Submission.

I don't think that made sense at all, LOL.

Oh, and cat--the horse drawing is awesome. I've always wished I was artistically inclined so that I could capture my own horses like I see them in my mind.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ok, I'm back to try and give my own insight. I make no promises about how insightful it'll be, though! (A paper on John Donne's use of conceit in his poetry, and how that makes his poems more relevant to modern readers has more or less stretched my brain to the limits of its creativity. Read: Bunny's tired of pulling stuff out of her ass.)

Anyway, I can't think of any concrete examples off the top of my head as "Acts of my Submission" (note the capital letters). Hell, if we really want to twist it around, since both Master and I are switches, on the occasions that I tie his little painslut ass up, then I'm still submitting because that's what he wants, right? (Ok, maybe that's another thread.) Submission is doing what he wants, if for no other reason than he wants it. (How's that for circular reasoning? ) If I stand on my head and sing in the living room because he wants me to, that's a Sign of my Submission to outside observers. If I stand on my head and sing in the middle of the street because I think it's a good idea at the time, it's likely to get me sent to a mental institution. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all about context for me.

As for cat's original dinner example, I've never considered that an act of submission. My mother drilled into me for years the Things a Southern Lady Does. Serving everyone else first is one of them. To this day, I still refuse to eat a bite before everyone else at the table has begun eating. To do otherwise is, in my mind, arrogant and rude. I'm a stickler for table manners, and I'm grateful that B. was raised a Southern Gentleman as well. He may use me as his own personal urinal in private, but, by God, you can bet that when we sit down to eat, he's going to pull the chair out for me. Does that make me any less submissive or him any less dominant? Nope.

In my everyday life, I'm fiercely--some may even say psychotically--independent. That was one reason it was so hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of submission. I'm still very independent. I don't need B. to make all my decisions for me. In fact, if I started consulting with him on every little thing, he'd laugh at me at first and then probably start getting really irritated with me. Half the reason he enjoys my submission so much is that, number one, it was so hard to come by, and, number two, I'm not one of those needy, annoying subs who depends on him for every little thing. I relish the control he has over the areas of my life he chooses to control, and I can contend with the others myself.

Well, I guess the conclusion of that long-winded post is that I do what he says, whatever it may be. Things that are ingrained in me already, like serving others first at the table and washing my hair every day, I don't consider part of my submission to him. My submission stems from the control I've handed over to him, and my actions are just reflections of that fact, not anything that can stand on its own as a huge Act of my Submission.

I don't think that made sense at all, LOL.

Oh, and cat--the horse drawing is awesome. I've always wished I was artistically inclined so that I could capture my own horses like I see them in my mind.

Made heaps of sense to me...and thanks for coming back with your thoughts, fried brain or not!! I find your thoughts much the same as my own.

Thanks for the compliment on the sketch...I thought I remembered you having hoses so it seemed to fit. I actually did the original for my father in Australia as he was a farmer up until I was around 10yo and his hoirses were always in his mind right up to the day of his death. When he got it in the mail, my mother said he was very quiet for a long time just staring at it, then he had to run and show the neighbours. He hung it above his bed so he saw it every night before sleep and every morning when he woke.

Catalina

 

[leeroy jenkins]

That's my point..if it is something you are not used to doing but have been asked to, it seems to fit an act of submission more for me than if it is a lifelong habit.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/117250791_d96a3c19c8_t.jpg Catalina

I would agree with you there M'Lady. Though it would give me better social graces if it was more a habit then some protocol that I need to learn and be trained on.

 

[RJMasters]

how it is interpreted to be a trait that screams submission as some seem to feel it is, or at least symbolises their submission when it has ben the way they always did whatever the task is. I have always enjoyed sex in all its various forms, to me to now claim my willingness to have sex with him is a sign of the depth of my submission seems a little fake, and so I am asking, is this really a sign of submission when no different to how somone has been opperating for their adult years, or just another aspect of life for vanilla and D/s alike?
Catalina

I may be wrong but there seems to be a bit of an assumption being made here that the person didn't view these acts as submissive before. Have you considered from the perspective that the person may have viewed this as a expression of their submissive nature all along?

From a thread where I asked the question about service oreinted submissives, I got the impression from many of the answers that serving others has been a part of their nature their whole life.

I think that now they are in a relationship with a person in which they can now focus that part of their submission to them, it is not like they are flipping a switch and saying that what they use to do vanilla wise, they now consider a submissive trait. A person can look back over their lives and see that they have always served others first as this brought an inward joy to them by doing so, and because hindsight is 20/20 they make the realization that this has been part of their submissive nature their whole life. Having the opportunity to now say that it is focused towards their PLY is to my thinking perfectly reasonable.


As to whether a person has to be fully aware of their submissive motivation while serving the food or any other act, I am not fully sure I have a hard or fast rule about this. I sort of have this genral thought that its much like cheating on a test. You may still serve the food in a way that is acceptable and even well mannered, but if you do not take a moment to acknowledge that the reason you do what you are doing has more meaning to it than just being well mannered, then in part you end up cheating yourself.

Some view being submissive as strictly a command and obedience type of thing. While others see that there are many forms in which submission can be expressed and offering service in order to be please is one of them. i think depending on how people view what submission is, will detrmine how they come down on this topic as well.

As for me, I see submission as being both obedeince to commands and also offering service when no command is neccessarily dictating the response but rather is an act that is offered in the hope to be pleasing. Legitimizing or laying claim that this is viewed as part of a person's submissiveness towards another is not something I struggle with that much and the activity involved being nuetral in nature has little bearing on the matter in making a distinction.

That's just how I see it.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

As for me, I see submission as being both obedeince to commands and also offering service when no command is neccessarily dictating the response but rather is an act that is offered in the hope to be pleasing.

This part right here sums up nicely how I feel about my submission. The day to day "routine" service oriented things that I do for Daddy are done because they are expected of me, and because I want to please Him. Service is part of my submission as I'm sure it is for most of us who are 24/7 at the very least, and some who aren't.

Submission is more than just an emotion, it's also actions, otherwise how in the world would a Dom know that His sub was submitting to Him? Daddy isn't a mind reader, no more than I am.

And add me to the list of ones missing cym right about now.

 

[graceanne]

If serving them dinner or any of your other examples else makes the dom feel served, then it seems to me that that's a perfectly fine way to show your submissiveness. Isn't this about what they dom wants? There are tons of ways that I, personally, show my submissiveness, or whatever. I don't choose to make a list, cause I don't feel like I need to defend myself. K is happy with what I do, and that's what's important.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I may be wrong but there seems to be a bit of an assumption being made here that the person didn't view these acts as submissive before. Have you considered from the perspective that the person may have viewed this as a expression of their submissive nature all along?

From a thread where I asked the question about service oreinted submissives, I got the impression from many of the answers that serving others has been a part of their nature their whole life.

I think that now they are in a relationship with a person in which they can now focus that part of their submission to them, it is not like they are flipping a switch and saying that what they use to do vanilla wise, they now consider a submissive trait. A person can look back over their lives and see that they have always served others first as this brought an inward joy to them by doing so, and because hindsight is 20/20 they make the realization that this has been part of their submissive nature their whole life. Having the opportunity to now say that it is focused towards their PLY is to my thinking perfectly reasonable.


As to whether a person has to be fully aware of their submissive motivation while serving the food or any other act, I am not fully sure I have a hard or fast rule about this. I sort of have this genral thought that its much like cheating on a test. You may still serve the food in a way that is acceptable and even well mannered, but if you do not take a moment to acknowledge that the reason you do what you are doing has more meaning to it than just being well mannered, then in part you end up cheating yourself.

Some view being submissive as strictly a command and obedience type of thing. While others see that there are many forms in which submission can be expressed and offering service in order to be please is one of them. i think depending on how people view what submission is, will detrmine how they come down on this topic as well.

As for me, I see submission as being both obedeince to commands and also offering service when no command is neccessarily dictating the response but rather is an act that is offered in the hope to be pleasing. Legitimizing or laying claim that this is viewed as part of a person's submissiveness towards another is not something I struggle with that much and the activity involved being nuetral in nature has little bearing on the matter in making a distinction.

That's just how I see it.

as always, You say it so much better. i could not come up with the words to describe what i was trying to say, and everything You said here is exactly what i was thinking.yes, i've always served my 'partner' first, but i've also ALWAYS been submissive in nature. of course, i didn't know it back then, i just thought i was 'different' anyway..thank You RJ, Sir for such a well put post and for saying what i was trying to find the words to say ...

 

[JMohegan]

Whatever anyone else considers a valid or invalid expression of anything within the confines of their personal relationships is none of my business and I really don't care.

However, over the course of my adult life I have cared a great deal about the way in which my personal needs deviate from the norms of society. For me, identifying and explaining the disconnect between my needs and cultural norms has always been a critical part of the process of finding a well-matched mate.

Leaving aside pain play and all things physical, there is only one thing I need but have no right to expect as part of a mainstream relationship in modern America. And that one thing is: obedience that is willingly and consistently granted over a sustained period of time.

Pick any other behavioral trait that I have ever craved or needed in a partner: devotion, eagerness to please, willingness to sacrifice for a partner's happiness, etc., and I can point to mainstream women who possess these very same things and express them without violating any cultural norms whatsoever.

Does this make them submissive? Per my definition, I'd say: not necessarily.

They may be latent submissives (i.e., those who would appreciate a relationship involving obedience if they knew such a thing were possible and had an opportunity to try it out).

But they are not submissive simply because they serve dinner first, prepare special surprises to please their partner, strive to serve and please him, or frequently place his needs above their own.

It seems to me that identifying these things as defining elements of submission is essentially saying that the mainstream itself does not exist. Or more correctly, that there are no standards of behavior distinguishing non-bedroom D/s from commonly accepted practices in our society.

That view is as valid as any other personal opinion, but it is not one that I share. As a practical matter, I do see a difference between cultural expectations and D/s, and that difference is summarized by the concept of obedience.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Cat, I completely see your original point and hadn't really thought much about it myself. As RJ's post pointed out about naturally submissive personalities (yes, I used the dreaded phrase 'naturally submissive'), I have always been what many would consider service oriented toward everyone I encounter. But while I know part of it is the way I was raised - BiBunny, I can totally relate on the Southern Girl upbringing as I was raised in Alabama - another large part of it is my naturally submissive nature. However, I don't consider the fact that I may serve someone first as an act of submission. I consider it good manners. For me, those acts of submission are more directly related to what his needs may be. Being service oriented is not necessarily the same as submitting, in my opinion. Sure, being service oriented is about doing what you can to please someone, but it is not really about submitting for me.

Submitting means that I do what he wants me to do in any given situation, whether it's a direct order or an understood order. Some people reading this are saying, what the hell is an understood order? Over time in a relationship, you learn not just about each other and what you like or dislike, you also learn about what each believes and you learn about how he would expect you to behave in certain situations. So while he may not give direct orders, in my mind, he expects me to make decisions based on what I believe he wants me to do. I do the things I'm expected or ordered to do, and I make decisions in my daily life based on what I believe he wants me to do. For me, that is a sign of my submission.

And I fully agree with Cutie - submission lies between the ears.

 

[catalina_francisco]

As for me, I see submission as being both obedeince to commands and also offering service when no command is neccessarily dictating the response but rather is an act that is offered in the hope to be pleasing.
That's just how I see it.

The assumption thing is incorrect RJ...I thought of it being a natural part of who they have always been (hence this whole thread), and I see often people mention it as a sign they have always been submissive, but that to me is not necessarily so and comes back to the idea they already were doing this (and most were unaware of what a submissive was most of their life so were they submitting or is it submitting in hindsight?) because it was the way they had seen others do it or been taught it was good manners etc., just as my OP mentioned. Add to that I personally have a dislike for this idea because one is a submissive and submits to their PYL, whenever they do something for someone else they are submitting willy nilly to everyone just because they are submissive. Just as others have said also, serving someone first is often a result of knowing ettiquette and good manners, and common sense, not necessarily submission so is it then correct to call it an act of submission because you enter the world of D/s?

As to offering acts a pyl thinks may please their PYL, I met many PYL's including F who do not particularly encourage that. It took awhile for me to get it, but I have also seen some PYL's in these parts mention it as well. To those who do not encourage it, it is because they may appreciate an occasional act done to make their life more pleasant or to please, but as a rule they do not think it is the pyl's place to make that decision for them as to what they want the pyl to do. That does not mean it is not something they like or may include as a duty from there on, but the idea is it is not the submissives place to decide what the PYL wants or needs and act on it independently. Add to that, over the years we have seen many discussions from submissives who are shattered their PYL didn't fall in gratitude at their feet for something they did of their own accord, or didn't even want it and said so (and often the pyl felt they had no right to say they didn't want it and try and persuade them they do), and you have an added problem.

It takes awhile sometimes to get your head around it as we are raised to appreciate things done for us or to make us happy, so when we do something for a PYL expecting them to be pleased and then they tell you it was not your place to take that decision on yourself and that for that reason they are not happy, frankly it hurts, but IMHO they are right, it is not my place as a submisssive to decide for them what I should do and what they should enjoy...part of their enjoyment often comes from actually issuing an order and having it obeyed, not a submissive acting independently and of their own free will.

I'm sure if you asked most people who have known me most of my life they would tell you I was very agreeable, easy going, flexible in almost any situation, willing to do what had to be done, and often doing something to help out someone else...but that once again is not a definite sign someone is submissive IMHO, me included. If it were, everyone who went in the clergy, medicine, care industries would automatically be labelled a submissive and I don't see simply the fact you are a nice person and happiest when helping others as undeniable proof you are submissive. It's not that simple though it would make life so much easier if it were. I guess my take on submission and being a submissive is based on consciousness, not haphazard and accidental aspects of a person's personality and/or character. For me to submit, I have to do it consciously and acknowledge it as an act of submission, more so than just happen to be doing it so notch it up as another part of submission. Blame it on those who guided me perhaps because it was they and F who opened my eyes to the idea that for some Dominants, they want more than automatic gestures and assumed personas, they want to see the submission going much deeper and from a place inside, not habit and convenience. Believe me, it took me a long while and a lot of pain to get it, but I think I finally have though I am not as good as them at articulating it.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

If serving them dinner or any of your other examples else makes the dom feel served, then it seems to me that that's a perfectly fine way to show your submissiveness. Isn't this about what they dom wants? There are tons of ways that I, personally, show my submissiveness, or whatever. I don't choose to make a list, cause I don't feel like I need to defend myself. K is happy with what I do, and that's what's important.

What then of the vanilla partner who get served, does that make them a Dominant and the one serving , a submissive? What if the submissive is very ill and needs to be served dinner in bed, or their tasks taken over by the PYL until they are well enough again, does that then make the Dominant the submissive, and the submissive the Dominant? Is it just the act, or also the reason behind the act, and the conscious state of mind from which it springs forth. Many vanilla partners do the same for their partners, I know I did, but I don't now feel justified to look back and call it submission because it was far from it, it just was the way things worked best most of the time for us and our situation. I can't honestly in hindsight call it anything else. And BTW, it is not a discussion aimed at needing to defend yourself, I was hoping it would not only help me but others to think about submission in relation to our own relationships and perhaps find ways to enhance it. If I had mastered perfection I wouldn't need it, but alas, the art of perfection for me remains unperfected. I actually don't have a list myself as it never entered my mind I needed one....discussion can be just that, discussion.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Whatever anyone else considers a valid or invalid expression of anything within the confines of their personal relationships is none of my business and I really don't care.

However, over the course of my adult life I have cared a great deal about the way in which my personal needs deviate from the norms of society. For me, identifying and explaining the disconnect between my needs and cultural norms has always been a critical part of the process of finding a well-matched mate.

Leaving aside pain play and all things physical, there is only one thing I need but have no right to expect as part of a mainstream relationship in modern America. And that one thing is: obedience that is willingly and consistently granted over a sustained period of time.

Pick any other behavioral trait that I have ever craved or needed in a partner: devotion, eagerness to please, willingness to sacrifice for a partner's happiness, etc., and I can point to mainstream women who possess these very same things and express them without violating any cultural norms whatsoever.

Does this make them submissive? Per my definition, I'd say: not necessarily.

They may be latent submissives (i.e., those who would appreciate a relationship involving obedience if they knew such a thing were possible and had an opportunity to try it out).

But they are not submissive simply because they serve dinner first, prepare special surprises to please their partner, strive to serve and please him, or frequently place his needs above their own.

It seems to me that identifying these things as defining elements of submission is essentially saying that the mainstream itself does not exist. Or more correctly, that there are no standards of behavior distinguishing non-bedroom D/s from commonly accepted practices in our society.

That view is as valid as any other personal opinion, but it is not one that I share. As a practical matter, I do see a difference between cultural expectations and D/s, and that difference is summarized by the concept of obedience.

Thanks JM. And your point about mainstream society not existing, or being labelled Dominant or submissive is something I see happening often and cannot understand. I love living this lifestyle, but I do not like applying the roles to everyone I see in the street or day to day living because they just are not D/s, they are just people living their life their way just as we live ours our way.

Catalina

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Needy.......................just a fun way to get attention and made to feel worthy

And you post this waste of bandwidth, why?

 

[BiBunny]

And you post this waste of bandwidth, why?

To make you ask questions, duh!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Cat, I completely see your original point and hadn't really thought much about it myself. As RJ's post pointed out about naturally submissive personalities (yes, I used the dreaded phrase 'naturally submissive'), I have always been what many would consider service oriented toward everyone I encounter. But while I know part of it is the way I was raised - BiBunny, I can totally relate on the Southern Girl upbringing as I was raised in Alabama - another large part of it is my naturally submissive nature. However, I don't consider the fact that I may serve someone first as an act of submission. I consider it good manners. For me, those acts of submission are more directly related to what his needs may be. Being service oriented is not necessarily the same as submitting, in my opinion. Sure, being service oriented is about doing what you can to please someone, but it is not really about submitting for me.

Submitting means that I do what he wants me to do in any given situation, whether it's a direct order or an understood order. Some people reading this are saying, what the hell is an understood order? Over time in a relationship, you learn not just about each other and what you like or dislike, you also learn about what each believes and you learn about how he would expect you to behave in certain situations. So while he may not give direct orders, in my mind, he expects me to make decisions based on what I believe he wants me to do. I do the things I'm expected or ordered to do, and I make decisions in my daily life based on what I believe he wants me to do. For me, that is a sign of my submission.

And I fully agree with Cutie - submission lies between the ears.

Thanks....good thoughts. I am of the thought a naturally submissive person may or may not be a submissive, but does not sutomatically make them one. For one thing, if it is the assertion of another (just as it may be as easily as it is to be a self observation), it then becomes a matter of whether that person wishes to be and consents to being a submissive.

I understand what you mean about understood orders. We have them and they are based on and related to rules he has set down clearly, and then left to my ability to interpret in particular situations. It is true over time you get to know the person enough to know what they expect, or would want....and it is that which has gotten me in trouble for going beyond that and doing something to please which he sees as overstepping that expectation. I am hoping I won't do it anymore, but I am sure in my still enthusiastic efforts to please at times I will forget and jump into the fire again.

The service part can and may not be about submitting for us, depending again on context. I understand it as submission when it is something he requires me to do as service, which I do not find easy or have difficulty doing as it then requires me to concentrate on doing it because it is what he wants, not because I might like it. I am enjoying the sharing of thoughts on this as it iss something which goes around in my head often and sometimes it is healthy to let it out for some fresh air.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

The assumption thing is incorrect RJ...I thought of it being a natural part of who they have always been (hence this whole thread), and I see often people mention it as a sign they have always been submissive, but that to me is not necessarily so and comes back to the idea they already were doing this (and most were unaware of what a submissive was most of their life so were they submitting or is it submitting in hindsight?) because it was the way they had seen others do it or been taught it was good manners etc., just as my OP mentioned. Add to that I personally have a dislike for this idea because one is a submissive and submits to their PYL, whenever they do something for someone else they are submitting willy nilly to everyone just because they are submissive. Just as others have said also, serving someone first is often a result of knowing ettiquette and good manners, and common sense, not necessarily submission so is it then correct to call it an act of submission because you enter the world of D/s?

As to offering acts a pyl thinks may please their PYL, I met many PYL's including F who do not particularly encourage that. It took awhile for me to get it, but I have also seen some PYL's in these parts mention it as well. To those who do not encourage it, it is because they may appreciate an occasional act done to make their life more pleasant or to please, but as a rule they do not think it is the pyl's place to make that decision for them as to what they want the pyl to do. That does not mean it is not something they like or may include as a duty from there on, but the idea is it is not the submissives place to decide what the PYL wants or needs and act on it independently. Add to that, over the years we have seen many discussions from submissives who are shattered their PYL didn't fall in gratitude at their feet for something they did of their own accord, or didn't even want it and said so (and often the pyl felt they had no right to say they didn't want it and try and persuade them they do), and you have an added problem.

It takes awhile sometimes to get your head around it as we are raised to appreciate things done for us or to make us happy, so when we do something for a PYL expecting them to be pleased and then they tell you it was not your place to take that decision on yourself and that for that reason they are not happy, frankly it hurts, but IMHO they are right, it is not my place as a submisssive to decide for them what I should do and what they should enjoy...part of their enjoyment often comes from actually issuing an order and having it obeyed, not a submissive acting independently and of their own free will.

I'm sure if you asked most people who have known me most of my life they would tell you I was very agreeable, easy going, flexible in almost any situation, willing to do what had to be done, and often doing something to help out someone else...but that once again is not a definite sign someone is submissive IMHO, me included. If it were, everyone who went in the clergy, medicine, care industries would automatically be labelled a submissive and I don't see simply the fact you are a nice person and happiest when helping others as undeniable proof you are submissive. It's not that simple though it would make life so much easier if it were. I guess my take on submission and being a submissive is based on consciousness, not haphazard and accidental aspects of a person's personality and/or character. For me to submit, I have to do it consciously and acknowledge it as an act of submission, more so than just happen to be doing it so notch it up as another part of submission. Blame it on those who guided me perhaps because it was they and F who opened my eyes to the idea that for some Dominants, they want more than automatic gestures and assumed personas, they want to see the submission going much deeper and from a place inside, not habit and convenience. Believe me, it took me a long while and a lot of pain to get it, but I think I finally have though I am not as good as them at articulating it.

Catalina

If you wish to make such distinctions in order to make sense of things in your own world then by all means I have no problem with it, in fact I have come to expect it from you on a constant and regular basis.

I'll stick by what I said..."I see submission as being both obedeince to commands and also offering service "

As JM pointed out obedience is one clear distinction....looks at my stated position and sees it is there.

You say that you must be conscienious of the act of submitting for it to fall in your understanding of what submission is.

"offered service" is in my way of thinking is someone who is putting forth a conscious effort.

How about the next time you sit down to a nice meal with F you intentionaly fix your plate first making sure to put all the choice servings on your plate and then give him what is left over and see how that goes.

If there is any question in your mind about it falling under the umbrella of submission I am sure the F would be glad to clear that up for you. And If he chooses not to, then I guess it not that important to him then is it?

We can whitle away at this for some time but ultimately we are going to land on two things and its not obedience nor offering service. It is what is behind those two things which make the distinction and they are simply self-awareness and consent. Obedience and offering service are the tangible proof that the other two exist whether it is about how to serve dinner or how to serve in bed.

 

[RJMasters]

Whatever anyone else considers a valid or invalid expression of anything within the confines of their personal relationships is none of my business and I really don't care.

However, over the course of my adult life I have cared a great deal about the way in which my personal needs deviate from the norms of society. For me, identifying and explaining the disconnect between my needs and cultural norms has always been a critical part of the process of finding a well-matched mate.

Leaving aside pain play and all things physical, there is only one thing I need but have no right to expect as part of a mainstream relationship in modern America. And that one thing is: obedience that is willingly and consistently granted over a sustained period of time.

Pick any other behavioral trait that I have ever craved or needed in a partner: devotion, eagerness to please, willingness to sacrifice for a partner's happiness, etc., and I can point to mainstream women who possess these very same things and express them without violating any cultural norms whatsoever.

Does this make them submissive? Per my definition, I'd say: not necessarily.

They may be latent submissives (i.e., those who would appreciate a relationship involving obedience if they knew such a thing were possible and had an opportunity to try it out).

But they are not submissive simply because they serve dinner first, prepare special surprises to please their partner, strive to serve and please him, or frequently place his needs above their own.

It seems to me that identifying these things as defining elements of submission is essentially saying that the mainstream itself does not exist. Or more correctly, that there are no standards of behavior distinguishing non-bedroom D/s from commonly accepted practices in our society.

That view is as valid as any other personal opinion, but it is not one that I share. As a practical matter, I do see a difference between cultural expectations and D/s, and that difference is summarized by the concept of obedience.

Not disagreeing with you JM, but there are many people who get married where the wife meets the criteria of being 100% consenting to the love and "obey" part of their marriage vows.

So obedience can also be seen in many vanilla type relationships as well. You could ask many submissives if they love and obey their Dominants and they would say yes. You could ask many wives if they love and obey their husbands and they would say yes.

Same question....same answer. Where is then is the real distinction being made?

A wife who obeys her husband may not fit into mainstream culture because of the present attitudes, but that does not mean they are not vanilla. So obedience is not neccessarily the ultimate qualifier.

There are really only two things which vanilla relationships do not have that D/s and M/s relationship do "at the relationship level" and that is self-awareness and consent to the same.

Some activities that you would not see a vanilla couple engaging in would be bondage and S and M play. But even then you could make an arguement about these activities being in degrees. There are many vanillas who get excitement out of using handcuffs and such or even a little rough sex with some spanking or choking involved....hence these could be seen as BDSM type activities, but of a light degree.

And before PE is even raised, PE also exists in vanilla relationships as well. Power is exchanged and shared in almost all types of relationships. Again this is a matter of degrees and not the complete absence of.

So I guess my full stated position on this would end up looking like this...

Submission is obedience and offering service that stems from self-awareness and consent to the same.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

If you wish to make such distinctions in order to make sense of things in your own world then by all means I have no problem with it, in fact I have come to expect it from you on a constant and regular basis.

I'll stick by what I said..."I see submission as being both obedeince to commands and also offering service "

As JM pointed out obedience is one clear distinction....looks at my stated position and sees it is there.

You say that you must be conscienious of the act of submitting for it to fall in your understanding of what submission is.

"offered service" is in my way of thinking is someone who is putting forth a conscious effort.

How about the next time you sit down to a nice meal with F you intentionaly fix your plate first making sure to put all the choice servings on your plate and then give him what is left over and see how that goes.

If there is any question in your mind about it falling under the umbrella of submission I am sure the F would be glad to clear that up for you. And If he chooses not to, then I guess it not that important to him then is it?

We can whitle away at this for some time but ultimately we are going to land on two things and its not obedience nor offering service. It is what is behind those two things which make the distinction and they are simply self-awareness and consent. Obedience and offering service are the tangible proof that the other two exist whether it is about how to serve dinner or how to serve in bed.

i find myself nodding along with almost everyone of Your posts RJ, Sir, and once again You've summed up my thoughts as well. i believe that if it pleases Master that i 'serve' Him dinner before i serve myself than that is showing my submission to Him. i think it all comes down to the dynamics of the relationship and the people in said relationship. it's another one of those what works for us may not work for you, and that's ok. we all have different views and ideas, there is no right way, and just because my way of 'showing my submission' to my Master does not match cats way doesn't mean mine or hers is wrong, it just simply means they are different and that our submission means different things to us. i don't think there is going to be any 'right' answer, but it's a great discussion and makes you really think about what it means to you.

 

[catalina_francisco]

If you wish to make such distinctions in order to make sense of things in your own world then by all means I have no problem with it, in fact I have come to expect it from you on a constant and regular basis.

I'll stick by what I said..."I see submission as being both obedeince to commands and also offering service "

As JM pointed out obedience is one clear distinction....looks at my stated position and sees it is there.

You say that you must be conscienious of the act of submitting for it to fall in your understanding of what submission is.

"offered service" is in my way of thinking is someone who is putting forth a conscious effort.

How about the next time you sit down to a nice meal with F you intentionaly fix your plate first making sure to put all the choice servings on your plate and then give him what is left over and see how that goes.

If there is any question in your mind about it falling under the umbrella of submission I am sure the F would be glad to clear that up for you. And If he chooses not to, then I guess it not that important to him then is it?

We can whitle away at this for some time but ultimately we are going to land on two things and its not obedience nor offering service. It is what is behind those two things which make the distinction and they are simply self-awareness and consent. Obedience and offering service are the tangible proof that the other two exist whether it is about how to serve dinner or how to serve in bed.

I really am not seeing why you continue to come across as defensive RJ (or perhaps I am misreading your tone)....as I have stated, this is a discussion about submission, not about who is right (note I have said many times I think I fall way short of doing a good job, hence why I give it thought), or who is wrong, what is best and what is worst. If it pleases a Dominant, yes, it is submisison if that is what they term it, but what I was referring to originally is when it is a self declared statment of a sub that their serving first is an act of submission which it is clear has often not been discussed with the Dominant ever, and is likely how they have done things pre-D/s days. I am sharing here in the hope others might also not only offer their views, but as some have said, thought about their submission from a different angle to what they had before...I have always been lead to believe by PYL's they appreciate a submissive who looks at their submisison and how it reflects on their Dominant, how it is processed, and why it is so, and how they may better serve their Dominant.

I'm sorry you seem to find it offensive that I do think, and I do try and make distinctions in my world so I can better serve instead of stumble around and hope it all works out in the end, but one of the things he has always said about why he chose me almost straight away is because I have a mind, I do think, I do take my submission seriously, and it is more than a hypothetical situation here and there I play around with and then believe I know it all...in fact I am so sure I don't have it right despite living it as a reality 24/7 face to face for 4 1/2 years now, it continues to be one of the things I think about most in life, and is not reliant on anyone else's way but his, but sure doesn't hurt for me to ponder perhaps what I am missing, what thoughts and ways others might have, share views and ways with others in a similar situation, and how I can improve and not sit back and pat myself for a job well done when it will never be done well enough to be perfect. You see, I see submission as a growth process, just as I do Dominance....if either a sub or Dom/me sit back and dust their hands off in self satisfaction, I think they begin to stagnate at best and never move forward or challenge themselves and develop further...sharing with others, contemplating every aspect of D/s repeatedly, and shifting outside our predefined comfort zones to at least try and relate to another's POV all lead in the direction of growth IMHO.

Oh and BTW, if I did as you suggested, F would likely see it as a positive (if he even noticed) as he is forever lecturing me on my not looking after myself well enough, often serving food out in everyone else's favour and taking what is left over (and this is me, not anything to do with my submission or submissiveness), and he really doesn't see much importance apart from normal manners and common sense when it comes to serving the Dominant first and the person serving, serving themselves last. For him it is such a small thing in the bigger picture it doesn't even come up on his radar.

Catalina