To Other Authors: Do You Use an Editor?

[Ironiclaconic]

I find it helps to let a story rest for awhile before proof reading it. I usually do about five reviews before publishing, each a few days apart. Half of the things I fix in each edit are errors I introduced when I wordsmithed sections in the previous edit.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I dont use an editor, becuz I never used one in the past. Where editors are imposed on me theyve all been incompetent in terms of changing good to bad; there's nothing more embarrassing than reading your scribbles after a copy editor seasons it with errors and publishes. Maxwell Perkins was prolly the lone editor in the history of publishing who made bad writing better with editing.

The other thing is, in every career I've had so far, no one ever followed behind me fixing my screwups; there were no screwups to fix, and I invented screwups. When youre on the phone with a man who just swallowed all his meds, or is drunk and has a pistol in his other hand, screwups arent allowed. The only person I ever killed I intended to kill. Writing is so simple compared to life/death struggles.

 

[Derroreaper]

Maxwell Perkins was prolly the lone editor in the history of publishing who made bad writing better with editing.

I had no idea you had access to the world's unedited manuscripts.

I had no idea you were such a literary insider.

 

[Candlelight062]

One thing I do that is helpful to me is, once a story is finished, I change the font style and size and re-read it. I also let a story sit for a few days at least, then come back to it. Between those two methods, I catch the majority of my own grammatical and continuity errors.

That's what I've been doing lately, too. I have two editors outside of the web who work closely with me, but before I present my work to them, I've changed the font and formatting which gives me a fresh perspective on the story and allows me to catch minor grammatical mistakes, missing words, and continuity.

 

[sr71plt]

I had no idea you had access to the world's unedited manuscripts.

I had no idea you were such a literary insider.

I highly doubt that JBJ ever had anything to send to an editor.

 

[laffalot]

I don't use an editor because I'm not writing professionally. I have been taking more time re-reading my own work than I did for my earlier stories, and I correct any mistakes I find. I've also gotten helpful comments telling me how to properly use quotations in a sentence, so I've corrected my mistakes on future stories, and I am grateful for the constructive criticism. I'm far from perfect when it comes to writing stories, but I'm confident enough in my ability to get my point across without using an editor.

 

[ShawnSwift]

I personally have two editors, both of which make me look better than I actually am. One editor helps me with all aspects of writing (characterization, plot, continuity, flow, female perspective and technical), while the other focuses almost entirely on the technical. Both of them are awesome individuals and I'm glad I've met them both.

That said, I've had a few bad experiences with the VE editor program too. I had one editor who painted three pages red and then disappeared, and another who, after a couple of months, vanished. In addition to the "vanishing editors," I've also had problems hearing back from volunteers too. Keep in mind that the VE is a free service and more often than not, you get what you pay for.

The last point I want to make is the amount of effort that goes into finding good editors. A lot of the editors in the VE program aren't literate, let alone professionals. Their VE profile will read something like: "I have a wide vocabulary and reed a lot. I'll edited your peace for technical error and anything else your needs." I saw one person who actually misspelled the word "edit." Priceless...

It's up to you to read profile after profile and in some cases their submissions to figure out if they will be a good fit for you. Most of the people in the VE program haven't actually submitted anything themselves so it'll be hard to gauge whether or not they'll be able to help you technically or otherwise. A couple of email correspondents will definitely help you figure it out though. Time, effort and patients are required to find the editor for you.

P.S. I'm a huge PacoFear fan-boy, *squeal*

P.S.S. Are you really Scouries' friend?

 

[CeasarBoobage]

Real authors use vi

LMAO! (Yes I really did)

Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day!

 

[CarolinaPeach]

I have used volunteer editors for 4 of my 5 stories. The first one, without an editor, turned out fine. The other 4, I felt I needed help, which I got in varying degrees. I have found I have the best experience when I make it very clear what I want. Some editors like to suggest alternate wording and very specific stuff that verges on co-authoring. Others strictly keep to punctuation, grammar and spelling. I like someone in the middle, and I make that clear. It makes for a better experience for both if the level and type of help is agreed upon right from the start.

I use an editor because I want anything I do to be the best it can be. A second pair of eyes (usually) helps. It does not matter that they are non-professional works. It's mine, I put my name on it and I want it to be good.

 

[DRS_EROS]

I have used volunteer editors for 4 of my 5 stories. The first one, without an editor, turned out fine. The other 4, I felt I needed help, which I got in varying degrees. I have found I have the best experience when I make it very clear what I want. Some editors like to suggest alternate wording and very specific stuff that verges on co-authoring. Others strictly keep to punctuation, grammar and spelling. I like someone in the middle, and I make that clear. It makes for a better experience for both if the level and type of help is agreed upon right from the start.

I use an editor because I want anything I do to be the best it can be. A second pair of eyes (usually) helps. It does not matter that they are non-professional works. It's mine, I put my name on it and I want it to be good.

Bravo.

 

[BonnevilleFlats]

Well, I finally did submit Ch. 3 of "Triangled Up In Blue" last night after letting it sit for over a month. I did not use an editor. I did, however, take the suggestion of using different fonts when I proof read and found some errors I missed that way. Unfortunately, I found one other error when I read the story today but it was not enough for me to take down the story, fix the mistake, and move it to the back of the line. Honestly, I need a break from those characters.

The interesting thing is, after letting the story sit for a while, the characters started doing things against my will. It is always a good sign when characters do that. The final consumation is not as "hot" or "romantic" as I had planned but it is probably truer to life. Plus, one of the characters discovered something about another character that I never thought of on my own.

 

[DeYaKen]

I've done both

I put this thread on this board rather than the author's hangout because it seems like more writers talk about writing here. So far I've posted four stories here and haven't used a volunteer editor. My line by line editing is decent, IMO. There aren't too many errors that get past me in a 10,000 word story. I didn't think an erotic story posted on a public site was important enough to warrant the use of an editor. But I see that many writers here have used an editor.

My questions for writers are 1) have you used an editor for stories posted on lit? Why or why not? 2) What has your experience been? Do you feel that an editor improved your story or not? 3) Did an editor mostly work with your line by line issues or did they go more into things like plot structure, characterization, etc...?

I have posted with and without using an editor. My first story "Secrets and Lies" I submitted without using an editor. In fact I didn't even check through it thoroughly and it had a number of errors. After that I recruited Juicstarchild as an editor. Yes she did improve the story she never changed anything just showed me where I could improve, both in my use of language and in the story. An example is that in "People can change" she told me I had treated the bookkeeper badly. I checked and she was right.I added 400 words and the story was better.

When Juicy's real life got in the way of her editing and she had to give up. I've had a couple of editors since then. I prefer ladies and they always seem to have busier lives so my last story was a do it yourself job. I wrote to a lady who read it and liked it to ask for her opinion. She immediately pin pointed something which I could have improved.

My next story will have been checked by an editor. I would say that if you find an editor whose opinion you trust and value then nurture that relationship and your stories will always be better.

 

[Sonatatre]

I would love to have an editor

I tried looking for one but could not find any so i gave up and went on without one. Maybe one day i will make an effort to look for an editor again. I know it would help my writing.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

One of my favorite books is a non-fiction account of the work a brilliant surgeon does transplanting hearts and lungs in babies. The best surgeons from around the world line up to be trained by this guy, yet few of these pupils submit to his direction. No one disputes his level of skill and expertise, but the whiz-kids defy him all the time. And they fuckup royally when they do.

The defiance makes me question their motives for training.

Robert E. Lee maybe had the best method for training youngsters. He gave them tasks and left the how-to up to them, and when they failed he sacked them. I suspect he knew that offering advice is a fools errand.

 

[jezzaz]

You have to fail before you understand the help good editor can give you.

It's also worth pointing out that editors handle two, very distinctly different disciplines.

One is proof reading and correcting grammar, syntax and generally cleaning up the general overuse of things like commas that lots of authors perpetrate.

The other is to actually look at the content and make suggestions on dialog, behaviors and plot development.

My experience, as a magazine editor and as a writer, is that most authors welcome the first and abhor the second. "But you are changing the import of my words" is what I got a lot, and it was interesting to see if after I'd said exactly the same things when my articles had been edited.

The fact is, you need to ignore someone, do it your way and fail miserably before you really understand the value of a good editor (and I say good, because there is a truck load out there that call themselves editors who suck ass in the way an elephant sucks water).

The problem then comes that once you do recognise this, and are actually prepared to listen when they say something, comes to the two pronged issue of a) finding one you trust, who 'gets it' (and you can be an awesome editor for Gun's and Ammo magazine and still not have a clue about how a Star Trek Novel needs to be written) and b) affording them, because a good one costs.

I've published two books on Kindle so far, and god knows I so desperately need the former, but the latter is very hard to find in terms of someone you can trust, who you believe understands what you are trying to say and who actually has the time and interest to invest in what you've written.

For a full on book, I was quoted about $2k for a edit pass, over 2 weeks. That was from two separate people that I've worked with in the past.

That's awesome, but $2k?? I've earned less than $200 from either one of my kindle books, - mainly because discovery is a bitch on Amazon.com, but that's another rant - How on earth am I going to afford that?

Yet, while I recognize the need, there is no frigging way I can afford it. So off I go, and do the best I can without it, because I'm not letting the lack of something like this stop me.

The fact is, from my perspective, if you can find a editor that a) is worth the title and b) has the time and inclination to actually follow through and read your stuff and comment on it intelligently, you hold on to them with both hands and never let go. And never tell anyone else either.

 

[LadyVer]

It's also great to find an author who knows how to revise...

 

[horrorotica]

I don't have anyone who can read my stories and I can't afford to pay an editor for the privilege. So I do it the old fashioned way. Keep revising over a week first thing in the morning when the mind is fresh and yesterdays work is no longer in my head. Maybe it works and maybe my stories are shit. Who knows. Editors can shine a turd, but it's still a turd.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Writers fergit that they were nursed on fairy tales and fables and stories, so the process oughta be 2nd nature to all.

 

[LadyVer]

I don't have anyone who can read my stories and I can't afford to pay an editor for the privilege. So I do it the old fashioned way. Keep revising over a week first thing in the morning when the mind is fresh and yesterdays work is no longer in my head. Maybe it works and maybe my stories are shit. Who knows. Editors can shine a turd, but it's still a turd.

I think finding a good editor is kind of like the old saying one has to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince.

 

[DeYaKen]

Step back in amazement

I use my own editor from outside of the Web site, not anyone claiming to be an editor on Literotica. I am a trained editor, but no one can edit themselves. You don't see everything that you wrote yourself correctly--your mind will read something as was intended; not what actually is there.

OK guys and gals, relish this moment you may never see it again.

I AGREE WITH SR

When we read our own work we do so with all the background knowledge we had when we wrote the story. It's easy to forget that the reader doesn't have that knowledge unless you've told them.

As he says we tend to read what we thought we wrote, rather than what we actually did.

An editor reads your work without preconceptions and can ask you to explain things that aren't clear. This is a big bonus. I have submitted work that has been edited and some that hasn't. Most of the ones where I didn't use an editor I look back on and say I could have done that better.

Sorry, I've just seen that I've already posted to this thread. Never mind agreeing with SR makes it worthwhile doing it again.

 

[Sonatatre]

OK guys and gals, relish this moment you may never see it again.

I AGREE WITH SR

That is okay as long as you dont agree with JamesB. I find it hard to imagine that anyone would ever do that though.

 

[LWulf]

I am going to agree with the concept of an editor being needed. If only to have a "second set of eyes" to look for glaring mistakes.

However, I will point out that editing, to me, is not where you tell someone HOW to change it, but just pointing out that they need to change something specific (baring punctuation, etc). Otherwise, the editor can say it was a collaborative effort and claim ownership of said work.

However, let's say a there's a logic flaw (something that doesn't make sense). This is a nebulous situation. To help edit, the editor would almost have to make suggestions on the fix. The trick is to limit the suggestion to a "seed" concept and let the author germinate that seed, creatively.

The trick is, most authors have fundamental "laws" of their universe. Whether it be; "all good guys wear white hats and bad guys wear black hats", or if they say "gravity is reversed", doesn't matter. This is their foundation for the plot/story/etc.

GOOD editing imo, is where an editor who tries to help with the storyline, accepts the rules of the author's universe. They can question where the limits of the laws end and begin and thereby, maybe find a loophole when the law is mutatable.

However, if you try to fight and question and cajole in an attempt to change those fundamental laws of an author's universe, then, to me, you will come up against a brick wall every time.

Does that mean all things are fixed in stone? No, but, like a spider's web, stories have some concepts so interwoven and entangled that if you start to change one thing, it affects many other aspects in the story and may cause the spider web to unravel.

Authors shouldn't take such casual plucking of each web to see how much it affects, personally, in these attempts to help.
Editors shouldn't take resistance to their plucking of the web that causes it to unravel, as personal either. It just means try someplace else.

None of this should be surprising.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

PILOTs fulla shit, of course.

Most people know when they've done good work, so why should writers be any different?

 

[DeYaKen]

A'm agreeing with too many people

I am going to agree with the concept of an author being needed. If only to have a "second set of eyes" to look for glaring mistakes.

However, I will point out that editing, to me, is not where you tell someone HOW to change it, but just pointing out that they need to change something specific (baring punctuation, etc). Otherwise, the editor can say it was a collaborative effort and claim ownership of said work.

However, let's say a there's a logic flaw (something that doesn't make sense). This is a nebulous situation. To help edit, the editor would almost have to make suggestions on the fix. The trick is to limit the suggestion to a "seed" concept and let the author germinate that seed, creatively.

The trick is, most authors have fundamental "laws" of their universe. Whether it be; "all good guys wear white hats and bad guys wear black hats", or if they say "gravity is reversed", doesn't matter. This is their foundation for the plot/story/etc.

GOOD editing imo, is where an editor who tries to help with the storyline, accepts the rules of the author's universe. They can question where the limits of the laws end and begin and thereby, maybe find a loophole when the law is mutatable.

However, if you try to fight and question and cajole in an attempt to change those fundamental laws of an author's universe, then, to me, you will come up against a brick wall every time.

Does that mean all things are fixed in stone? No, but, like a spider's web, stories have some concepts so interwoven and entangled that if you start to change one thing, it affects many other aspects in the story and may cause the spider web to unravel.

Authors shouldn't take such casual plucking of each web to see how much it affects, personally, in these attempts to help.
Editors shouldn't take resistance to their plucking of the web that causes it to unravel, as personal either. It just means try someplace else.

None of this should be surprising.

If I read you correctly you seem to be saying the author must have the final say, and of course this is correct. It's their name on the story it they who get the credit and the abuse.

However the author needs to be big enough to look at suggestions objectively and decide if it makes the story better. In British Industry lots of good ideas have been lost due to NIHS (Not invented here syndrome). The thinking goes that if the guys we pay all the money to couldn't come up with this, it can't be any good. Some writers treat their work the same way.

A recent documentary showed Iain Rankin working on his latest novel. He uses an editor who is not afraid to say to him "I don't think Rebus would do this. Would you like to look at it again"

If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

 

[sr71plt]

If I read you correctly you seem to be saying the author must have the final say, and of course this is correct. It's their name on the story it they who get the credit and the abuse.

Whoever is paying to have it published has the final say. The author, of course, if the author is carrying the publishing burden or not publishing it at all. The publisher in other cases. Here, on Literotica, it's the Web site. The Web site reserves the right not to post anything it doesn't want to.

When I edit for a publisher, the author has the right to plead their preferences, but it's the publisher who decides whether to publish it or not.