To read, or not to read...

[Angeline]

i just read "Nightingale.'

....nothing's coming to my mind.

do you think i just have trouble with birds?

I'm partial to eagles for some odd reason.

 

[Liar]

I understand how the argument can be made that if we know how to talk - if we know words - that's all we need to create poetry on our own, without any outside influence. But to me, that's the equivalent of saying we can learn how to waltz on our own - without a partner and without having ever heard music - simply because we know how to walk.

Poetry is to writing what dance it to walking. I like that.

 

[bogusbrig]

1201, i understood that.

i just don't buy that at all, find it downright silly. and as i said, it is an argument i have heard a few close friends use to rationalize their own shortcomings.

I've never tried to publish any of my work because I'm all too aware of my shortcomings and how bored I get with editing and perfecting a work. I usually write off the cuff and make one or two alterations then abandon a poem with all it's imperfections.

However I went through a phase of buying up shops full of second hand poetry books when I lived in London and in the process netted some pearls but unfortunately I have bookshelves full of earnest well crafted poetry. Every now and a again I give a book a second chance in case I missed something the first time around. I think I have only found one book that I missed that I've since thought of as fresh and alive. The only reason I keep most of them is I can't bring myself to part with or destroy books.

You just have to look through poetry periodicals to find hundreds of well crafted earnest poems. It is quite something to find myself excited by someone pushing themselves and trying to say something new or in an original voice rather than trying to write 'good poetry'. I think much is the fear of exposing oneself to criticism. Like all the arts, poetry is a small world and its easier to be defensive and competent than be brash and new and invite hostile criticism from other jealous practitioners or people who think their work is being shown lacking because of the vitality of a new voice.

 

[Zanzibar]

reading many of today's poetry journals, i sometimes find myself saving close to 50% of the poetry for second readings. the percentage is usually high. and they are all from poets i do not know, whose work is not familiar to me.

i read all the poetry here every day. as contrast, the last time i saved a poem at literotica from a poet i did not know (excluding the handful of poets whose work i reread on a regular basis) was 12/15/2004. i have read an awful lot of poems here in those 5 months, saved none.

the last web journal i read, last week, over half the poems required me to save them to reread.

that is the difference to my eyes.

either way, there is no question that everyone should read as much as they can. there is simply no reason not to, and no way it will not make you better.

<smiles> Something to aspire to... writing a poem that you end up saving for a re-read. It might be silly, but considering the quality of much of what you write, I think it would be a milestone.

 

[eagleyez]

(...prompted by a comment on another thread.)

I put it to you that to read, read and read some more is likely going to influence your own writing either consciously or sub-consciously.

This does have benefits, but from the Bad Thing perspective, how does it help you to hear your own voice?

Harold Bloom wrote a book called "The Anxiety of Influence" regarding this very subject, a good read that postulates that all literature and poetics are a palimsest, an edifice stacked like cordwood upon itself, and, like it or not, just a retelling of certain core elements that drive art out of the mind and hopefully the heart and into a form.

Some great examples were used in this text from Shakespeare as I recall, all the intertextual mingling and referencing found in HIS plays, using HIS voice. I think reading for writers is like buying nails for a carpenter. You have to build your own house in the end. If your lucky it becomes a home. Yet it looks like all the others on the block. Slung together laboriously.

When I work with dilligence on prose projects, I have to read like a madman, usually 4 or more things at once. Not to be influenced, but to talk to the other carpenters and see what works. Check out their tools so to speak, shoot the shit and listen. Then Im outa there. Back to my private lot.

Writing can be so lonesome and painful, sometimes I dont know why we do it.

The Fools Errand some say.

 

[eagleyez]

The Wasteland is incredible. It is one of those works that you can go back to time and again and feel like you are reading it for the first time all over again. There are not too many works of such freshness. It still has a contemporary feel about it after all this time.

Its very relevant to mention that in this discussion too. That poem is so chalk full of intertext and is, in many critical readings, really ABOUT influence and history as art. Also, the loss of innocence in the modernity of post WW 1 planet earth, when man learned to kill man from miles away. Yellow gas and trenches full of death.

Elliot hated it and it took Ezra Pound performing a caesarian on it to get it born.

I spent an entire semester seminar dissecting the thing, 4 months on one poem, under the direction of a prof from NYC with jet black hair and the coolest yid/street accent. Of course, silly me fell in love with her and couldnt wait to come to class. We were the same age and Im just a foolish dreamer.

Funny, how things come around, in art, in life. Then around again. As a friend of mine said recently, the balls keep spinning regardless. Planets, moons, stories and poems...


edited to add...Twelveone's post about the construction of the Wasteland is spot on.

*I could never write poetry like that. If you've ever read any of Eliots critical writings, you may agree that he was genius gone a tad off. Still, spellbinding in many ways. Just a bit too academic for me*

 

[Angeline]

Its very relevant to mention that in this discussion too. That poem is so chalk full of intertext and is, in many critical readings, really ABOUT influence and history as art. Also, the loss of innocence in the modernity of post WW 1 planet earth, when man learned to kill man from miles away. Yellow gas and trenches full of death.

Elliot hated it and it took Ezra Pound performing a caesarian on it to get it born.

I spent an entire semester seminar dissecting the thing, 4 months on one poem, under the direction of a prof from NYC with jet black hair and the coolest yid/street accent. Of course, silly me fell in love with her and couldnt wait to come to class. We were the same age and Im just a foolish dreamer.

Funny, how things come around, in art, in life. Then around again. As a friend of mine said recently, the balls keep spinning regardless. Planets, moons, stories and poems...

from NYC? jet black hair? yid/street accent?

i think there's intertext in your post.

no further comments...

 

[Guest]

from NYC? jet black hair? yid/street accent?

i think there's intertext in your post.

no further comments...

Funny thing. I had the same thought.

 

[Angeline]

Funny thing. I had the same thought.

Heh. And he mocks my accent. I never thought he had one, but two years later I can detect that northern kalliforney hippie groove in his voice.

 

[twelveoone]

1201, i understood that.

the statement bogusbrig made was:

If you are boringly competent in your craft you have more chance of being published than if you are exciting and fresh.

i just don't buy that at all, find it downright silly. and as i said, it is an argument i have heard a few close friends use to rationalize their own shortcomings.

i have a habit. when i read a poem i like a lot or think is high-quality, i save it for a second reading later on.

reading many of today's poetry journals, i sometimes find myself saving close to 50% of the poetry for second readings. the percentage is usually high. and they are all from poets i do not know, whose work is not familiar to me.

i read all the poetry here every day. as contrast, the last time i saved a poem at literotica from a poet i did not know (excluding the handful of poets whose work i reread on a regular basis) was 12/15/2004. i have read an awful lot of poems here in those 5 months, saved none.

the last web journal i read, last week, over half the poems required me to save them to reread.

that is the difference to my eyes.

either way, there is no question that everyone should read as much as they can. there is simply no reason not to, and no way it will not make you better.

My guess would have been foehn, but the time looks a little off.

I happen to agree with bogusbrig's statement, but then I am sure if we where to look at the same thing we would not see the same thing, I am deferential to your knowledge. Some of that knowledge enables you to see if differently than I. Sometimes knowledge also binds you to seeing things a certain way. Sometimes it is a matter of taste.

I remember looks of horror on some classically trained musicians hearing either Japanese or Indian classical , or atonal Jazz.

I also remember a kind of a strange arguement, I had with a woman here, where I told her I found 80% of her stuff of interest, and found 80, maybe 90% of the poetry in the New Yorker not of interest. In certain circles, publication in the New Yorker would mean they are better poets than this woman. I vote with the buck, I don't have many, this woman I would buy. Another here, I would buy. The only thing I remember from the New Yorker is someone once snuck "a bowl of liliacs" in one of theirs, for some reason I remembered that.

But, in deference to this thread, I will mention that I read them.

Granted, I am not familiar as you are with the world of poetry, so perhaps, it may be my limitations, but the few kernels I find here are of greater interest, than collectivly anywhere else. And it is not because of the skewered subject matter, but more so the skewered angles that they coming from, and I like to see development. There is no other place that I know of where I can read not only you and Angeline and various others, but also Lauren and liar, they are not ordinary. The funkiness of Tath, who sometimes reminds me of myself before I got old and miserable. The growing confidence and insight of Maria2394.
And of course my favourites annaswirls and WickedEve.
Now this guy bogusbrig, who probably stands a better chance of getting published, than I ever will. I have to watch out for him, he's pissin in my niche.
But I would buy his book.
I would buy yours, but only if you autograph it - just joking, you know how I feel about certain poems that reach for greatness.

Excuse me I have to go work on my end rhyme, I heard it was a good tool to use...

 

[PatCarrington]

i read all the poetry here every day. as contrast, the last time i saved a poem at literotica from a poet i did not know (excluding the handful of poets whose work i reread on a regular basis) was 12/15/2004.

Angeline and various others, but also Lauren and liar, they are not ordinary. The funkiness of Tath, who sometimes reminds me of myself before I got old and miserable. The growing confidence and insight of Maria2394.
And of course my favourites annaswirls and WickedEve.

1201,

these names you list here make up a large part of those i mentioned, the poets i read and reread regularly here.

angeline.....lauren....liar.....tath.....maria......anna.....eve.....

they are the reason i come here everyday, to read.

all, in their own voice, show what "fresh language" is all about.

 

[PatCarrington]

the last time i saved a poem at literotica from a poet i did not know (excluding the handful of poets whose work i reread on a regular basis) was 12/15/2004.

My guess would have been foehn, but the time looks a little off.

this one:

Morning Walk

 

[annaswirls]

I've never tried to publish any of my work because I'm all too aware of my shortcomings and how bored I get with editing and perfecting a work. I usually write off the cuff and make one or two alterations then abandon a poem with all it's imperfections.

fuck perfection

and send me your poems

eh hem

yeah, I think it is me who uses this as an excuse for my many shortcomings, but I am sincere.

and 1201 I read my favorite poem in the New Yorker. It was about a woman who reached up for an umbrella on a bus.

it was perfect

or wait, was the billy collins in 9 horses? Hmm. I just remember loving a poem I read in the New Yorker once. And there was a lady on a bus. Michalangelo was involved.

So, anyone have any good zine recommendations for perusing the poetry on a regular basis? I usually hop around the web link to link randomly looking for somewhere I might fit in.



I keep coming back here though. My dysfunction family I always wanted

~Jennifer

 

[PatCarrington]

fuck perfection

are you going to start again?

 

[annaswirls]

are you going to start again?

start?

eh hem.

you know I never stop

I just whisper as I know everyone gets sick of it.


hmm maybe less profanity, and maybe if I center it...hmm...

PERFECTION IS A BORE​

'tis why I like live concerts
the "mistakes" are often more interesting in the plan

 

[annaswirls]

are you going to start again?

only you can get away with smirking and a kissie face all in one breath and still be somehow sincere






see, it just doesn't work with me.
gotta work on my charm

 

[PatCarrington]

only you can get away with smirking and a kissie face all in one breath and still be somehow sincere






see, it just doesn't work with me.
gotta work on my charm

i'd answer, but i'm laughing too hard......................

 

[wildsweetone]

Gee whizz, I leave you guys alone for five minutes and come back to discover you've all been WRITE-ing to each other.



1201, I keep going back to The Waste Land. It has great imagery and even a lay word player like me can tell there is great skill pulling the writing together. I will go back to it from time to time, and yes, most likely will learn something. Thank you for sticking it under my nose.

Pat, I love Willow Rain's Morning Walk too.

 

[bogusbrig]

Gee whizz,

1201, I keep going back to The Waste Land. It has great imagery and even a lay word player like me can tell there is great skill pulling the writing together. I will go back to it from time to time, and yes, most likely will learn something. Thank you for sticking it under my nose.

There is nothing more off putting than reading to learn, which is why I failed so miserably at school. I was working in the steelworks at fifteen and within weeks I had graduated to the coal mine where I met an old miner who never had the chance of an education. He enthused about poetry. It was through his infectious love of poetry I bought a copy of the Wasteland. I still have that original copy. I just didn't get it. I didn't get it for years but the old miner had poisoned me with the love of language, something my teachers never could do. Eventually my wanting to crack the secret of the poem got the better of me and without realising it, I was for all intents and purposes studying the text.

What am I saying? Just read and enjoy, sometimes the left side of the brain just gets in the way. If you read, listen and speak, you subliminally absorb the richness of language if you open yourself up to it. By the time I was consciously analysing poetry, I realised I had been analysing it for years.

Hmm I must write a poem in homage to the old bloke, who is no doubt dead now.

 

[twelveoone]

fuck perfection

and send me your poems

eh hem

yeah, I think it is me who uses this as an excuse for my many shortcomings, but I am sincere.

and 1201 I read my favorite poem in the New Yorker. It was about a woman who reached up for an umbrella on a bus.

it was perfect

or wait, was the billy collins in 9 horses? Hmm. I just remember loving a poem I read in the New Yorker once. And there was a lady on a bus. Michalangelo was involved.

So, anyone have any good zine recommendations for perusing the poetry on a regular basis? I usually hop around the web link to link randomly looking for somewhere I might fit in.



I keep coming back here though. My dysfunction family I always wanted

~Jennifer

maybe that is why I was bored, I have no concept of buses or umbrellas

 

[twelveoone]

this one:

Morning Walk

I see it now, thank you, nicely constucted.

 

[twelveoone]

1201,

these names you list here make up a large part of those i mentioned, the poets i read and reread regularly here.

angeline.....lauren....liar.....tath.....maria......anna.....eve.....

they are the reason i come here everyday, to read.

all, in their own voice, show what "fresh language" is all about.

as said (or rather implied) above, I come for the unusual construction/ and or subject matter, but largely effective means of delivery.
"fresh language" is a very difficult tightrope to walk, has to be fresh enough, but not too unusual that people lose their reference points.
I see why you like "willow rains" all the reference points are there, and there is a real freshness to it.
You succeed in this difficult area quite nicely.

I am quite deferencial, no?

But there is nothing in "morning walk" that haunts me, that makes me wake up in the middle of the night, there is no deeper presence, something I carry around for weeks, months.
Am I missing something?

 

[twelveoone]

Gee whizz, I leave you guys alone for five minutes and come back to discover you've all been WRITE-ing to each other.



1201, I keep going back to The Waste Land. It has great imagery and even a lay word player like me can tell there is great skill pulling the writing together. I will go back to it from time to time, and yes, most likely will learn something. Thank you for sticking it under my nose.

Pat, I love Willow Rain's Morning Walk too.

WSO
I'm glad.

Pat is a most worthy adversary, I mean this in a Hegelian sort of way.
and we really disagree on so little.

 

[twelveoone]

There is nothing more off putting than reading to learn, which is why I failed so miserably at school. I was working in the steelworks at fifteen and within weeks I had graduated to the coal mine where I met an old miner who never had the chance of an education. He enthused about poetry. It was through his infectious love of poetry I bought a copy of the Wasteland. I still have that original copy. I just didn't get it. I didn't get it for years but the old miner had poisoned me with the love of language, something my teachers never could do. Eventually my wanting to crack the secret of the poem got the better of me and without realising it, I was for all intents and purposes studying the text.

What am I saying? Just read and enjoy, sometimes the left side of the brain just gets in the way. If you read, listen and speak, you subliminally absorb the richness of language if you open yourself up to it. By the time I was consciously analysing poetry, I realised I had been analysing it for years.

Hmm I must write a poem in homage to the old bloke, who is no doubt dead now.

I'm still here, son. Just get yur ass movin', and quit goofin' off.

 

[PatCarrington]

as said (or rather implied) above, I come for the unusual construction/ and or subject matter, but largely effective means of delivery.
"fresh language" is a very difficult tightrope to walk, has to be fresh enough, but not too unusual that people lose their reference points.
I see why you like "willow rains" all the reference points are there, and there is a real freshness to it.
You succeed in this difficult area quite nicely.

I am quite deferencial, no?

But there is nothing in "morning walk" that haunts me, that makes me wake up in the middle of the night, there is no deeper presence, something I carry around for weeks, months.
Am I missing something?

i doubt you're missing anything. i don't think the poem is in the 'haunting' catagory.....it ain't Prufrock....

what is does have is a sophisticated grasp and use of language, one that is usually only shown by the top poets here.

the words and images are cross-threaded. and the word choice is wonderful, not tired in the least.

i was just saying that it's been 5 months since i read a poem here written by someone other than the expected ones that i thought was worthy of a higher venue. that is the last one that struck me like that.

eve and the list of writers above strike me like that all the time.

it's always nice to see such mature writing from a new name. and it usually goes largely unacknowledged here, as this poem did, which makes me wonder a bit about the general readership as well.