Today is a new beggining (apparently)
- Thread starter Flagg
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Nice one, MADDOG.
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We like counting shit, Debs. Makes us feel brainy. (By the way - I'm intrigued by the strange hieroglyphics you left on my bedpost over the festive season - what do they mean?)
BIGFOOT
xxxxx
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BIGFOOT
xxxxx
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Actually, No Deborah. I would have posted that even if I was unregsisted. I just also happened to make the point that it was my 220th so that I wouldn't look like a cock for bringing up something that noone was likely to care about. Luckily, you took care of that for me.
MADDOG
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Sweet Debwa - I just noticed your list of demands. I don't have the answers. I'm not much into trying to prove or disprove anything - it's always subjective and it's not my battle, anyway.
I've got my own unshakable beliefs that I probably wouldn't really be able to put into words. I'm not going to try and proselytize you (is that the right word - to convert to another belief system?) and I'm certain that nobody has an argument that's going to change my mind either.
One thing, though - you mentioned earlier that there was no proof throughout the history of civilization that humans have evolved in any way. I don't know much about these kinds of things but is it not the case that our records of civilization only stretch back around 10,000 years (this is just a vaguely rembered figure - I'm probably wrong). Surely it would take much longer than this for the effects of evolutionary changes to be noticed.
I've got my own unshakable beliefs that I probably wouldn't really be able to put into words. I'm not going to try and proselytize you (is that the right word - to convert to another belief system?) and I'm certain that nobody has an argument that's going to change my mind either.
One thing, though - you mentioned earlier that there was no proof throughout the history of civilization that humans have evolved in any way. I don't know much about these kinds of things but is it not the case that our records of civilization only stretch back around 10,000 years (this is just a vaguely rembered figure - I'm probably wrong). Surely it would take much longer than this for the effects of evolutionary changes to be noticed.
Endlessly
Corrupted Innocent
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(Warning. My moods have been swinging like you wouldn't believe the last few months and today I woke up with a hate on for the human race.)
What separates us from God? You mean besides our own stubbornnes?..
Wait. Wrong kind of separation.
Gee. I'm thinking it's compassion, unconditional love and a supreme willingness to forgive. And you can bet I wasn't talking about man.
Can we CREATE life? Really? It's like saying you can bake a cake. You can upt together all the ingredients correctly, you can mix it to perfection, and put it in precisely the right pan before popping it into the perfectly-temperatured oven.
But what then? Can you turn it from batter to cake? Or do you have to wait and hope nothing out of the ordinary occurs before you take it out of the oven?
I digress.
Man is not on the same level as God, and won't be until he can create something out of literally NOTHING. No materials, no safety nets, nothing-- create the electrons that make the atoms without the use of anything. At all. Whatsoever. Of course, we'll have a repet of the Tower of Babel before we get there.
I'm not saying I always agree with God-- that whole Lot thing really pisses me off sometimes-- but I don't really understand him enough to agree with Him 100% 24/7. If it's not a conversion issue, then I just run with the 'peace that passeth understanding' deal. Even so, I feel like an aitheist sometimes, but I could never stop believing. I don't want to sound like some branch-Davidian weirdo who's seen the face of God so I'm not going to go into it, but rest assured I wasn't always deeply rooted like this and when I got 'saved' it wasn't the usual yawning decision to wander down the aisle. It was a Damascus road experience.
That being said.. Work calls.
What separates us from God? You mean besides our own stubbornnes?..
Wait. Wrong kind of separation.
Gee. I'm thinking it's compassion, unconditional love and a supreme willingness to forgive. And you can bet I wasn't talking about man.
Can we CREATE life? Really? It's like saying you can bake a cake. You can upt together all the ingredients correctly, you can mix it to perfection, and put it in precisely the right pan before popping it into the perfectly-temperatured oven.
But what then? Can you turn it from batter to cake? Or do you have to wait and hope nothing out of the ordinary occurs before you take it out of the oven?
I digress.
Man is not on the same level as God, and won't be until he can create something out of literally NOTHING. No materials, no safety nets, nothing-- create the electrons that make the atoms without the use of anything. At all. Whatsoever. Of course, we'll have a repet of the Tower of Babel before we get there.
I'm not saying I always agree with God-- that whole Lot thing really pisses me off sometimes-- but I don't really understand him enough to agree with Him 100% 24/7. If it's not a conversion issue, then I just run with the 'peace that passeth understanding' deal. Even so, I feel like an aitheist sometimes, but I could never stop believing. I don't want to sound like some branch-Davidian weirdo who's seen the face of God so I'm not going to go into it, but rest assured I wasn't always deeply rooted like this and when I got 'saved' it wasn't the usual yawning decision to wander down the aisle. It was a Damascus road experience.
That being said.. Work calls.
Oh dear, here we go...
I associate a lot of things with religion but compassion, unconditional love and a supreme willingness to forgive don't figure anywhere on my list. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
Now can I suggest that those of you who tend to start preaching when others are trying to hold intelligent debate do so elsewhere.
We will never get anywhere if we are not open to the idea of being wrong now and then.
Oh and don't even think of starting world war three in this thread because it really isn't the idea behind it.
Flagg.
[Edited by Flagg on 06-28-2000 at 09:08 AM]
I associate a lot of things with religion but compassion, unconditional love and a supreme willingness to forgive don't figure anywhere on my list. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
Now can I suggest that those of you who tend to start preaching when others are trying to hold intelligent debate do so elsewhere.
We will never get anywhere if we are not open to the idea of being wrong now and then.
Oh and don't even think of starting world war three in this thread because it really isn't the idea behind it.
Flagg.
[Edited by Flagg on 06-28-2000 at 09:08 AM]
Dixon Carter Lee
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No worries Flagg. As far as I can tell everyone has respected eachother's opinons and put forth their own quite intelligently and thoughtfully.
Deb, I didn't want to answer your questions and get into the whole God issue because this was a thread about the Genetic Mapping thing, and I didn't want to take over the thread. But, briefly...
Civilization began when there were three types of human beings scurrying about the planet, one of which was Homo Sapiens (us), who survived several Ice Ages only by banding together far distant villages and tribes for trade and mutual survival. Since that time, yes, there have been evolutionary changes in Man that are well recorded in the fossil and bone record. Brains have grown, teeth have blunted, toes have shrunk, and God knows what the hell the appendix used to do. But maybe you're only thinking as far back as recorded history, which is much later, around the time of Babylon. Have we evolved since then? Oh yes. All the above examples still apply. But. Man's evolution has been seriously retarded since then because our species no longer has to wait for nature to mold us to the changing environment, we now change the environment to mold us as we are now. We cook food, softening it, and our teeth stopped sharpening. We clothe ourselves, and our hair stopped growing, except for Robin Williams. Etc. Etc.
Evolution is not neccessarily a slow process, and some species of animals and plants can be seen to evolve over a generation. Evolution can be an observable phenomenon, and I'd be happy to find lots of examples for you, but, again, they're really easy to find yourself, since there are so many examples.
As for the veracity of the Bible -- oy. Too big a topic. Watch Peter Jennings report on Jesus. And there is plenty of literature out there on what happened and what didn't.
Now sweep all that aside. What can be proved doesn't matter. Belief in God will never come from proving that, yes, David did have a city and witnesses did see Jesus after death and how do you explain the miracle at Fatima etc. etc. Belief in God will only come through Faith, which is beyond the realm of examination. So you could tear apart the Bible like a pit bull with a kitten, but those who believe, who truly believe, will still believe. And if you want to believe you won't find faith with a microscope or a scholar's report on the Dead Sea Scrolls. The only way to get Faith, is to have it.
So says a good Roman Catholic Boy.
Deb, I didn't want to answer your questions and get into the whole God issue because this was a thread about the Genetic Mapping thing, and I didn't want to take over the thread. But, briefly...
Civilization began when there were three types of human beings scurrying about the planet, one of which was Homo Sapiens (us), who survived several Ice Ages only by banding together far distant villages and tribes for trade and mutual survival. Since that time, yes, there have been evolutionary changes in Man that are well recorded in the fossil and bone record. Brains have grown, teeth have blunted, toes have shrunk, and God knows what the hell the appendix used to do. But maybe you're only thinking as far back as recorded history, which is much later, around the time of Babylon. Have we evolved since then? Oh yes. All the above examples still apply. But. Man's evolution has been seriously retarded since then because our species no longer has to wait for nature to mold us to the changing environment, we now change the environment to mold us as we are now. We cook food, softening it, and our teeth stopped sharpening. We clothe ourselves, and our hair stopped growing, except for Robin Williams. Etc. Etc.
Evolution is not neccessarily a slow process, and some species of animals and plants can be seen to evolve over a generation. Evolution can be an observable phenomenon, and I'd be happy to find lots of examples for you, but, again, they're really easy to find yourself, since there are so many examples.
As for the veracity of the Bible -- oy. Too big a topic. Watch Peter Jennings report on Jesus. And there is plenty of literature out there on what happened and what didn't.
Now sweep all that aside. What can be proved doesn't matter. Belief in God will never come from proving that, yes, David did have a city and witnesses did see Jesus after death and how do you explain the miracle at Fatima etc. etc. Belief in God will only come through Faith, which is beyond the realm of examination. So you could tear apart the Bible like a pit bull with a kitten, but those who believe, who truly believe, will still believe. And if you want to believe you won't find faith with a microscope or a scholar's report on the Dead Sea Scrolls. The only way to get Faith, is to have it.
So says a good Roman Catholic Boy.
CreamyLady
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Why is there something instead of nothing?
I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.
As for the implications of the Genome Project, I can't add anything intelligent to any of the theses above. I do think that the results might fall into the middle of the hopes and fears -- less than we hoped, and more than we feared, on either side of the question.
I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.
As for the implications of the Genome Project, I can't add anything intelligent to any of the theses above. I do think that the results might fall into the middle of the hopes and fears -- less than we hoped, and more than we feared, on either side of the question.
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CreamyLady said:
Nothing got bored of being nothing so it became something.
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It's the Little Bang Theory.
Endlessly
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*LOL* Fear not, Flagg; I don't want to get into this with you, especially after the nice E-mail you sent me. 
Note though, for future reference, I didn't say 'religion' reminded me of compassion, unconditional love, and a willingness to forgive; I said God did.
Allow this little backwoods preacher-girl to simply state that Christians are the only group of people I've ever met who shoot their own wounded. *wry smile* I damned near went on a rampage at my church a while ago because one of my favorite people in the whole entire world-- a with-it woman in her thirties who's like my sister, and whose daughter is like my daughter-- happened to get pregnant out of wedlock with a minister, and it was all I could do to keep from slapping all the people talking about her.. And that's just one example of many.
My theological views are being shaded by my experiences and debates like this, as well as what I read (Stranger in a Strange land is making me think). So the colors change, the hues differ.. But the picture will always remain for me. Don't want to preach, just here for an interesting topic like you.
Note though, for future reference, I didn't say 'religion' reminded me of compassion, unconditional love, and a willingness to forgive; I said God did. Allow this little backwoods preacher-girl to simply state that Christians are the only group of people I've ever met who shoot their own wounded. *wry smile* I damned near went on a rampage at my church a while ago because one of my favorite people in the whole entire world-- a with-it woman in her thirties who's like my sister, and whose daughter is like my daughter-- happened to get pregnant out of wedlock with a minister, and it was all I could do to keep from slapping all the people talking about her.. And that's just one example of many.
My theological views are being shaded by my experiences and debates like this, as well as what I read (Stranger in a Strange land is making me think). So the colors change, the hues differ.. But the picture will always remain for me. Don't want to preach, just here for an interesting topic like you.
Roger, the hieroglyphics are an ancient Egyptian illustrated (think Kama Sutra-like) love poem. You need the Rosetta Stone to translate.
Indeed, Endlessly, I often say that the best way to attend church is in a casket, that way all the crap doesn't bother you nearly as much.
Yes Dixon, the subject of this thread is genetic mapping but Flagg, who started this shit, did ask "Does God exist?" in his initial post. And Fallen Angel soon mentioned the forbidden word again. Now, this would be an important question if man, in the future, could actually create another human life. Would that life created by man be equivalent to a life created by God (if you believe in such an entity)? Because some would say man can not create a soul. That would be part of the religious debate me thinks.
And Dixon, I think we need to define "evolution" if this discussion is going to progress much further. Are we not using the "monkey to man" Darwinian definition? Or in Mr. Darwin's own words, in "The Descent of Man," where he says "In a series of forms graduating insensibly from some ape-like creatures to man as he now exists, it would be impossible to fix on any definite point when the term man ought to be used." But it would be many hundreds of thousands of years ago.
Now, I say that man has been up to a lot of monkey business in the past 6,000 years, but there is no evidence that in the past 6,000 years (give or take a thousand years, I won't quibble) he actually was part monkey. I also fix 6,000 years ago as when civilization, as usually defined, and history, as usually defined began.
Indeed, Endlessly, I often say that the best way to attend church is in a casket, that way all the crap doesn't bother you nearly as much.
Yes Dixon, the subject of this thread is genetic mapping but Flagg, who started this shit, did ask "Does God exist?" in his initial post. And Fallen Angel soon mentioned the forbidden word again. Now, this would be an important question if man, in the future, could actually create another human life. Would that life created by man be equivalent to a life created by God (if you believe in such an entity)? Because some would say man can not create a soul. That would be part of the religious debate me thinks.
And Dixon, I think we need to define "evolution" if this discussion is going to progress much further. Are we not using the "monkey to man" Darwinian definition? Or in Mr. Darwin's own words, in "The Descent of Man," where he says "In a series of forms graduating insensibly from some ape-like creatures to man as he now exists, it would be impossible to fix on any definite point when the term man ought to be used." But it would be many hundreds of thousands of years ago.
Now, I say that man has been up to a lot of monkey business in the past 6,000 years, but there is no evidence that in the past 6,000 years (give or take a thousand years, I won't quibble) he actually was part monkey. I also fix 6,000 years ago as when civilization, as usually defined, and history, as usually defined began.
Dixon Carter Lee
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Darwin did not say we are descended from Monkeys -- and we aren't. He suggested a common ancestor -- which there is. In oher words, we didn't start out as monkeys and get better. Monkeys have a huge genetic diversity, much larger than ours, because their species has been around a lot longer.
If we can create life from "scratch" that means doing essentially what the sun does, create elements, which, technically, is feasible. Not now -- not even close. But it IS feasible. It's only a process, after all. Incredibly difficult, and perhaps beyond our ability physically, but for all intents and purposes sure, why not? Add a little carbon, a little amino acids, and cook for a billion years. So, yes, I do think that one day we could create life. Sentient life? Who knows? There are too many variables and happy accidents that have to occur before bacteria start writing plays and cheating on their wives. Will life created by man be without a soul? Well, since I don't believe in the soul, yeah, I kinda think so.
Now -- where does the sun's ability to create elements come from? Now we're going back to the big Bang, and this is where science leaves off, because just before a millionth of a second after the Big Bang the physical laws of the universe did not exist, so we will never know what came at the moment of creation, and how it got there.
Too damn bad, that. I'd like to know that, before I go.
If we can create life from "scratch" that means doing essentially what the sun does, create elements, which, technically, is feasible. Not now -- not even close. But it IS feasible. It's only a process, after all. Incredibly difficult, and perhaps beyond our ability physically, but for all intents and purposes sure, why not? Add a little carbon, a little amino acids, and cook for a billion years. So, yes, I do think that one day we could create life. Sentient life? Who knows? There are too many variables and happy accidents that have to occur before bacteria start writing plays and cheating on their wives. Will life created by man be without a soul? Well, since I don't believe in the soul, yeah, I kinda think so.
Now -- where does the sun's ability to create elements come from? Now we're going back to the big Bang, and this is where science leaves off, because just before a millionth of a second after the Big Bang the physical laws of the universe did not exist, so we will never know what came at the moment of creation, and how it got there.
Too damn bad, that. I'd like to know that, before I go.
Laurel
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Not too long ago, people afflicted with schizophrenia and epilepsy were thought to be possessed by evil spirits. As these diseases have been studied, they've been found to have biological roots. Depression - thought by some to be a "crisis of the soul" - can be treated with medication. They even have a pill for shyness! (No joke - I saw it on late night TV.)
We all arrogantly assume that we're too complex of creatures to be little more than bone and blood and hormones. Creativity, genius, emotion - how can that come from a collection of tissues? There must be a "soul" responsible, right? I disagree... I think that the answer is that the human physiology is an incredible thing. Just because we don't yet understand how the brain works does not mean that a soul or spirit is responsible for who we are. Hell, ancient Greeks thought that battles between the gods caused thunderstorms.
Here's my biggest problem with religion: it assumes it knows the answers. Science doesn't. Science is full of theories and hypotheses and experimentation. Science tests and retests. Religion doesn't - it can't, because proof denies faith. If you need concrete evidence to believe, then you lack faith. Unfortunately, I'm one of those stick-in-the-muds that needs proof.
We all arrogantly assume that we're too complex of creatures to be little more than bone and blood and hormones. Creativity, genius, emotion - how can that come from a collection of tissues? There must be a "soul" responsible, right? I disagree... I think that the answer is that the human physiology is an incredible thing. Just because we don't yet understand how the brain works does not mean that a soul or spirit is responsible for who we are. Hell, ancient Greeks thought that battles between the gods caused thunderstorms.
Here's my biggest problem with religion: it assumes it knows the answers. Science doesn't. Science is full of theories and hypotheses and experimentation. Science tests and retests. Religion doesn't - it can't, because proof denies faith. If you need concrete evidence to believe, then you lack faith. Unfortunately, I'm one of those stick-in-the-muds that needs proof.
Weird Harold
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Dixon Carter Lee said:
I don't think we need to go quite that far back in the chain to be guilty of "creating life." We are on the verge of custom tailoring a virus from base chemicals. There is some dispute over whether a virus is truly alive, but I think they probably are.
Is a clone a "created life?" How about a truly artificial intelligence. (a la "Colossus" or Asimov's positronic robots.)
Dixon Carter Lee said:
Speaking of the late Dr. Isaac Asimov, the short story "The Last Question" (in the anthology _Nine Tommorows_ among other anthologies,) is the best guess I've ever seen regarding the source of the Big Bang.
Endlessly ->
I can't help but be baffled by people who don't believe in evolution when the facts are staring you in the face. I think the main reason for people disbelieving in it is because they think that it questions their faith which is of course intolerable. The truth is though that you can believe in evolution and dinosaurs because faith is unconditional and will always have an explanation for everything.
e.g. Dinosaurs - laurel mentionned that some think that they were put there by Satan to make us question our faith. I've heard people that their bones were buried by God to test our faith!
*"On the first day, God created the trees, the oceans and the lakes"
*"On the second day he created the sun and the moon"
*"On the third he created air and water"
*"On the fourth he created animals that swim"
*"On the fifth he created animals that fly"
*"On the sixth he created animals that walk"
*"on the seventh he got a bit bored and decided to bury loads of bones everywhere"
That's the incredible thing about real faith. No matter what is flung at you you will always relentlessly believe. Quite impressive I guess.
I can't help but be baffled by people who don't believe in evolution when the facts are staring you in the face. I think the main reason for people disbelieving in it is because they think that it questions their faith which is of course intolerable. The truth is though that you can believe in evolution and dinosaurs because faith is unconditional and will always have an explanation for everything.
e.g. Dinosaurs - laurel mentionned that some think that they were put there by Satan to make us question our faith. I've heard people that their bones were buried by God to test our faith!
*"On the first day, God created the trees, the oceans and the lakes"
*"On the second day he created the sun and the moon"
*"On the third he created air and water"
*"On the fourth he created animals that swim"
*"On the fifth he created animals that fly"
*"On the sixth he created animals that walk"
*"on the seventh he got a bit bored and decided to bury loads of bones everywhere"
That's the incredible thing about real faith. No matter what is flung at you you will always relentlessly believe. Quite impressive I guess.
Weird Harold, now why would anyone give any more credibility to what Asimov says about God than what he says about Azazel? Consider the source.
My point on this thread is that evolution and the existence of God are not mutually exclusive. Learned men on both sides of the evolution vs. creation issue have initiated and promulgated an incredibly futile debate.
I don't care if (some) man descended from monkeys or had a common ancestor, or whatever, many thousands of years ago. It's a moot point. It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with the existence of God. Anyone who can't get past that has little chance of sorting out anything. And don't stick "faith" in my face. Faith has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.
My point on this thread is that evolution and the existence of God are not mutually exclusive. Learned men on both sides of the evolution vs. creation issue have initiated and promulgated an incredibly futile debate.
I don't care if (some) man descended from monkeys or had a common ancestor, or whatever, many thousands of years ago. It's a moot point. It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with the existence of God. Anyone who can't get past that has little chance of sorting out anything. And don't stick "faith" in my face. Faith has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.
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Bearing in mind that I don't personally believe in "God", and that I don't have a great trust for science either - here's something I've often wondered. Why do religious ideas of a deity creating the universe and scientific theories of the Big Bang and Evolution have to be mutually exclusive?
Evidence of dinosaurs, animals evolving and the expansion of the Universe from a single point only conflict with your idea of God if you're so literal-minded that you believe word for word that the Bible is an exact document of EXACTLY what happened. If that was the case, it would have to be written by po-faced, humorless accountants rather than the poets and story-tellers of the day.
People have been using metaphor, imagery and other poetic tools since the earliest days of communication to put across complex ideas in a way that every member of the community can understand - young, old, intelligent or stupid. The poets, song writers and story tellers were an important part of any society. They kept the group's history, rules and beliefs alive by firing up the listener's imaginations, giving them drama - wording what they had to say in such a way that the folk listening could actually imagine themselves there in the thick of the action. They used metaphor in the same way that myths, legends and fairy tales do. Jesus's parables are little metaphors that explain fairly complex concepts about the best way to live your life in a way that even a child can understand.
So you can read the Bible in a strictly black-and-white, literal-minded way if you like but it's a bit like watching a soap opera or 'Star Wars' and believing that what you're seeing really happened.
You can actually read the Old testement in such a way that it describes the evolutionary process.
God's seven day creation of the universe. Maybe the story-tellers are using the word "days" as a metaphor, meaning "ages" or "stages" - God created the universe in seven stages. They're speeding up time - saying "days" when they mean "millions of years" - in order to increase the drama and the spectacle. A lot like a film-maker speeding up film to show you a flower growing, opening up, withering and dying in a matter of seconds.
If you take the liberty of changing the order of the "days" then you have the Big Bang or God creating the elements (described as "air and water"); these form planets, suns, galaxies and the universe ("he created the sun and the moon"); planet Earth becomes habitable ("God created the trees, the oceans and the lakes"); the first life-forms appear ("he created animals that swim"); these eventually grow legs or wings and crawl or fly out of the sea ("he created animals that fly" / "he created animals that walk") and eventually, through a process of evolution, "Man" appears.
The Garden of Eden story can be seen as describing the way homo-sapiens developed intelligence and became separated from the other animals because of this (Adam and Eve are thrown out of the Garden of Eden for eating from 'the tree of knowledge').
The Tower of Babel story is all about the development of communication and language.
Science doesn't explain how the Big Bang happened - so you can still believe that it was "God" that set all this in motion - without having to claim that dastardly old Lucifer spent all his time running around burying mysterious bones in the sand.
One thing I wanted to add - Laurel, you do realise that your comments about Santa are considered basphemous in certain states?
Oh, yeah - and Debwa, I had a look again at those "hieroglyphics". They seem to be a series of notches. I've counted over a hundred so far.
Evidence of dinosaurs, animals evolving and the expansion of the Universe from a single point only conflict with your idea of God if you're so literal-minded that you believe word for word that the Bible is an exact document of EXACTLY what happened. If that was the case, it would have to be written by po-faced, humorless accountants rather than the poets and story-tellers of the day.
People have been using metaphor, imagery and other poetic tools since the earliest days of communication to put across complex ideas in a way that every member of the community can understand - young, old, intelligent or stupid. The poets, song writers and story tellers were an important part of any society. They kept the group's history, rules and beliefs alive by firing up the listener's imaginations, giving them drama - wording what they had to say in such a way that the folk listening could actually imagine themselves there in the thick of the action. They used metaphor in the same way that myths, legends and fairy tales do. Jesus's parables are little metaphors that explain fairly complex concepts about the best way to live your life in a way that even a child can understand.
So you can read the Bible in a strictly black-and-white, literal-minded way if you like but it's a bit like watching a soap opera or 'Star Wars' and believing that what you're seeing really happened.
You can actually read the Old testement in such a way that it describes the evolutionary process.
God's seven day creation of the universe. Maybe the story-tellers are using the word "days" as a metaphor, meaning "ages" or "stages" - God created the universe in seven stages. They're speeding up time - saying "days" when they mean "millions of years" - in order to increase the drama and the spectacle. A lot like a film-maker speeding up film to show you a flower growing, opening up, withering and dying in a matter of seconds.
If you take the liberty of changing the order of the "days" then you have the Big Bang or God creating the elements (described as "air and water"); these form planets, suns, galaxies and the universe ("he created the sun and the moon"); planet Earth becomes habitable ("God created the trees, the oceans and the lakes"); the first life-forms appear ("he created animals that swim"); these eventually grow legs or wings and crawl or fly out of the sea ("he created animals that fly" / "he created animals that walk") and eventually, through a process of evolution, "Man" appears.
The Garden of Eden story can be seen as describing the way homo-sapiens developed intelligence and became separated from the other animals because of this (Adam and Eve are thrown out of the Garden of Eden for eating from 'the tree of knowledge').
The Tower of Babel story is all about the development of communication and language.
Science doesn't explain how the Big Bang happened - so you can still believe that it was "God" that set all this in motion - without having to claim that dastardly old Lucifer spent all his time running around burying mysterious bones in the sand.
One thing I wanted to add - Laurel, you do realise that your comments about Santa are considered basphemous in certain states?
Oh, yeah - and Debwa, I had a look again at those "hieroglyphics". They seem to be a series of notches. I've counted over a hundred so far.
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Deborah - have you been reading my study notes again?
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