Today is a new beggining (apparently)

[Flagg]

Nice answer rog - I'm pretty much with you on that one. One thing I feel I should point out however is that my "seven day analogy" was completely made up. I've know idea what he created on which day and how he phrased it. Just thought I should make that clear.

I think that basically you were saying the same as me in that whatever science discovers it can be made to fit into the biblical version in some way or another.

I think that maybe I might start adhering to the old Viking system of beliefs. Basically all you have to do is be terrified when it rains and the rest of the time simply drink, eat, and ravish young maidens. Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[Guest]

One thing I feel I should point out however is that my "seven day analogy" was completely made up.

Ooops! I live in an un-Godly house. No Bible here. Anybody have an Old Testament? What are the seven stages of creation?

 

[Deborah]

Roger, the only thing that upset me about this entire Egyptian assignation is when you said I "fuck like a mummy."
Reminded me of Flagg's (Crystal's) "Still Love" dead fuck story.

Flagg, you are hopeless. I guess you didn't learn much when you were a girl.

Roger, you are making progress. You keep thinking, but don't hurt that pretty little head, either one of them.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Deb, I'm confused. You keep asking questions and making points, but I'm not really quite sure what you're asking, or what you're saying. You're leaving some part of the train of your thought out.

You asked about past civilzations and evolution, and I tried to answer as best I could without pulling out my Darwin Cliff Notes, and then you say, "I don't care about who descended from who..." I misunderstood you, then, because I thought you were asking.

Of course God and Evolution aren't mutually exclusive. That was my point about the whole "Big Bang" thing, when all my precious little laws of nature and science didn't exist. Plenty of room for God there.

No one is sticking "faith" in your face. I was making an observation about how Roman Catholics deal with the issue of faith. "Have Faith and Faith will be given unto you." In other words, believe first, then comes the rebirth of the soul. I brought it to point out how pointless it is to try an prove the non-existance of God, because even if you couls (and you can't), Faith does not start with proof, and does not come from proof, it comes from simply having it, on a transcendental level you could say. The point is, since Faith does not require proof, absence of proof or refutable proof will have no effect on it. I choose not to debate the existance of God with the Faithful (whom I envy) because Faith is debate-proof.

Now, not everyone is Roman Catholic (lucky bastards) and people have their own ideas about what Faith is and how it's achieved. Flagg asked archly, but it's a good question because you're a thoughtful woman with a unique voice and can usually express herself brilliantly, so I'll ask, too: "What do you have Faith in?"

 

[Flagg]

Here I stand very much deflated

Oh God, please don't give up on me now! I don't think I could cope!

 

[Deborah]

Hey you guys I have to get back to work. Money calls. I have faith in money. I'll think on all this and get back at you later.

 

[Weird Harold]

Weird Harold, now why would anyone give any more credibility to what Asimov says about God than what he says about Azazel? Consider the source.

First of all, the story "The Last Question says nothing about God. At least not directly.

Dr. Asimov was an avowed Agnostic with atheisticic leanings. In other words, as close to an impartial observer as it is possible to get. Over the course of his long career, he wrote thoughtful stories from several viewpoints, in essense arguing things from both sides.

Dr. Asimov wrote fiction that makes you think. His eventual answer to the 'last question' is as plausible an answer to the question of what caused the Big Bang as any other I've seen.

Roger,
The seven days of Creation in the Bible are in the order that things happened. The word, in the oldest copies of the story, translated as 'day' in the King James and other versions can also be translated as 'A period of time.'

 

[Guest]

Good points, Kerrie. I think that all rigidly held beliefs - religious, scientific or political - are a bit like that. You just have to watch two opposing politicians "discussing" any subject on tv to see how little they actually listen to each other. Both sides refuse to concede even one single tiny point in case it calls their whole belief system into question. I'd have more confidence in politicians if they were willing to admit when they're wrong.

You see it so often on the BB. Just think of some of the hot issues that have caused rows and tantrums here lately. People shout so hard at each other without actually listening that it just sounds like dogs barking at each other.

And anybody that disagrees with what I just said is STOOPID!!!!

 

[Deborah]

Now, where was I before I was so rudely interrupted by the Almighty Dollar?

Dixon, coincidentally I was born and raised Catholic and graduated from a Catholic U. where numerous theology and philosophy courses were required. I was the only one in a class of about 30 who received an "A" in the Philosophy of Communism (so you see, Lasher, I have read "Das Kapital"). I also received my one and only "F" in a theology course. I refused to take it over just to raise my GPA because I was damn proud of that "F." Fucking priests! And now I see Havoc wants to talk about the Holy Roman Empire. Yes!!!

Weird Harold, several years ago I developed a fascination with some of Azimov's work and spent an entire day at Barnes & Noble reading every work by him on the shelf, including his autobiography. His work is rife with humanist beliefs and his own personal objection of the existence of God and an afterlife. Asimov even said Hitler shouldn't burn in hell for barbecuing 6M Jews. Get real Weird Harold. Azimov is about as right as the Pope.

I don't give a shit what the Pope, Dr. Azimov or any other man says. I try to figure things out for myself.

OK, I take one thing back. There are men who are part ape (besides Roger of course). I just listened to John Rocker's latest speech. He just happens to be in NY you know. I'm not a big baseball fan but I'm watching the game just to see if something strange happens. My interest in baseball is mosting the celebrity seventh inning stretch singing at Wrigley Field. A month or so ago one of the Grateful Dead sang "Take Me Out to the Ballgame." Really. They were in Chicago to do a concert. I wonder if Nurse was there, since she lives in "my kinda town." Have you heard Sammy Sosa refuses to be traded from Chicago to NY unless his own special Nurse goes too? Kinda like the story about Sammy Davis Jr. who had Linda Lovelace in his entourage because of his fascination with "Deep Throat."

I'll answer the question asked both by Flagg and Dixon about what I have faith in. If faith as defined as "a confident belief or trust in a person, idea or thing (my dictionary) then I have faith that one day I will die. It may or may not be delayed by all this genetic mapping we are talking about, but I have faith that one day it will happen.

Speaking of the Grateful Dead, I believe (now you use whatever semantics you wish, is it logic or is it faith?) there is an afterlife. And I'll be there kicking ass and taking names. Endlessly will be my Girl Friday (sorta like the apostle Paula). Oh yes, there is plenty of sex in heaven, too. No marriage but lots of fucking and sucking.

Hey Rog, find your bible yet? You said "The Garden of Eden story can be seen as describing the way homo-sapiens developed intelligence and became separated from the other animals." Good boy! This happened in the second chapter of Genesis about 6,000 years ago. Other men and women were created in the first chapter of Genesis, some many thousands of years before the man named Adam of Genesis 2:7.

Hey Rog, did you ever think that maybe that "intelligence" you spoke of somehow influenced the beginnings of civilization which also began somewhere around 6,000 years ago? I know, just a coincidence.

Civilization is defined, by "American Heritage" as "an advanced state of cultural and material development in human society, marked by political and social complexity and progress in the arts and sciences." Others might define civilization a little more simply as the level of development at which people live together in communities. According to most, civilization and ancient history (writing) began 5,000 - 6,000 years ago in places like Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley region of Pakistan, the Huang He (Yellow River) valley of China, the island of Crete in the Aegean Sea and Cental America.

You go figure.

 

[Laurel]

clap clap clap clap clap

Deborah, that was amazing! Catholicism, Isaac Asimov, John Rocker, and the Grateful Dead - all in one post! Such scope, such range! I still don't know how the hell any of it relates to human genomes, but it kept me entertained for a solid ten minutes! Bravo! Do pop music next...

 

[Laurel]

Oh yeah - how could I forget Sammy? Wow, whatta post...

 

[Endlessly]

Deborah.. You're always a woman to me (Had to work in Billy Joel with Laurel's request for pop music), but I have to say this:

You are the fucking man.

I don't have to go blind for a while after seeing you in order to be your girl friday, do I? And can I skip all that inprisonment crap too? 'Cause if so, I am TOTALLY there..

 

[Deborah]

LOL Endlessly! Just don't call me Jesus. That was before the operation. And WE know, the divine is feminine, 'eh? Flagg did just call us cows I think over on that other thread. One thing is for damn sure, Endlessly, we are gonna be getting ours first before we start giving away any blowjobs in heaven.

But Laurel, who would pay attention to anyone talking about religion if they didn't mix in a little sex and other fun stuff?

"The bible" is the most important book in human history. For one thing, it has certainly been used as a tool to repress sexuality by holier-than-thou self-righteous hypocrites.

I already pointed out in my True/False questions no man fully understands "the bible" or can even come close to fully interpreting it (show me one!). I just give it my own little twist, in a way that makes sense to me.

I'm just entertaining possibilities here. Kerrie, to answer your question ... Adam allegedly was created about 6,000 years ago. Civilization began about 6,000 years ago.

What is the one single most important thing to a man? Nope, not blowjobs. Food!

What was the single most decisive factor that made it possible for mankind to settle in permanent communities? How about agriculture? People who previously lived in just a family unit or tribe no longer had to be continually on the move searching for food. Things changed considerably once people could control the production of food. Sciences such as mathematics actually were a result of agriculture as movements of the moon, sun and planets, etc., were studied to calculate seasons.

Now Roger (God's gift to Gurus) thinks perhaps that Adam was given some sort of intelligence that did not exist previously. What might that have been?

Adam was first farmer. Check it out.

I already said there were other humans around when Adam showed up. After all, who did Cain marry? So just maybe Adam taught others a little bit about "life on the farm" and I'm not talking about shagging sheep here.

Hey COWboy (Flagg), I'm just trying to help you out here, dude. You did, in the beginning, ask "Does God exist?"

 

[Flagg]

You may be paronoid. You may be completely neurotic. You may be a psycho. You may be a tad childish. But you are not a cow and I never suggested that you were - you haven't got nearly enough nipples.

As for the God thing, I'm glad so many people responded. There have been a lot of interesting viewpoints and some excellent arguments from all sides. It is a shame, however, when people start to take things personally. You Deborah, are a complete nightmare when somebody disagrees with you. You can write all the best written, funniest, well researched posts in the world but I won't have a grain of respect for you unless you give what other people say a chance.

Lighten up.

Flagg

[Edited by Flagg on 06-30-2000 at 07:00 AM]

 

[Guest]

Good afternoon, Sweet Debwa.

You said "The Garden of Eden story can be seen as describing the way homo-sapiens developed intelligence and became separated from the other animals." Good boy!

I think that the Garden of Eden story is a reworking of material from even older civilizations than the Hebrews.

I saw a programme that described an earlier story (I can't remember which civilization it was) that was basically the Garden of Eden story but with a few differences. I can't remember it exactly - sorry.

But there is a similar theme in 'The Epic of Gilgamesh', one of the oldest known recorded poems. It was written down in southern Mesopotamia around 4000 years ago (2000BC) but they reckon it's from a much older oral source.

The hero of the poem, Enkidu, is made out of mud by the gods and grows up among the wild beasts of the desert. Gilgamesh, a tyranical leader hears of Enkidu's great strength and feels threatened. So, he sends a hunter and a harlot to entrap him:

"Posted near the drinking trough the hunter and the harlot, after waiting for two days, saw Enkidu and his familiar flock arrive. The girl exposed her bosom and drew off her robe. Enkidu was overcome with passion and lay with her. When he had his fill of pleasure he returned to his flock, but upon seeing him the gazelles fled...."

So, the hooker uses her artful ways to lead the beast-man Enkidu out of the animal kingdom and into civilization - the holy city of Erech. Kind of like Adam being thrown out of Eden for hangin' with Eve - only this naughty temptress didn't bother messing about with apples and snakes, she just dropped her top and they got right down to it.

I think that a lot of the Old Testament stories are based on much older folk-tales and legends that have been reworked to reinforce the Hebrew belief system - a patriarchal social order with one male deity, Yahweh (Jehovah), right at the top. Enkidu doesn't seem too bothered that the animals have rejected him now that he's gettin jiggy with prostitutes and hangin' with the rich folk in the city. But for Old Testement Adam, one bite of Eve's fruit (under the evil guidance of that nasty old snake - heh-heh!) is like being thrown out of paradise into Hell-on-Earth.

The message the Prophets seem to be trying to reinforce here is that you shouldn't get too clever for your boots and you should NEVER trust a woman. It was important to the Hebrew society that women were kept in their place - a woman was the property of her father and then, when she reached puberty, her husband. And God help any maiden caught flouncing about like the Whore of Babylon!!!

This happened in the second chapter of Genesis about 6,000 years ago.

Do you mean it describes events that happened 6,000 years ago? How do you know? I'm just curious.

Hey Rog, did you ever think that maybe that "intelligence" you spoke of somehow influenced the beginnings of civilization which also began somewhere around 6,000 years ago? I know, just a coincidence.

I think that civilization obviously requires intelligence, because it is a structured group. It needs logic and advanced communication skills to develop and keep in place. But I think that basically it is just an extension of the groups you see everywhere in nature - a structured flock, pack, herd, gaggle, with a hierarchy based on logic rather than instinct.

As far as the 6,000 years thing. I think that that's possibly how far our records stretch back but I think that civilizations may well have existed long before this.

Human intelligence has been developing over millions of years, not thousands. The primitive brain still exists in us today - it's right in the centre. That's where our animal urges come from - rage, the sex drive etcetera. The newer, more sophisticated parts of our brain have grown around this core.

I think there have probably been many more great civilizations wiped out by the ice age or other huge global disasters. There is some evidence that the great flood described in the Old Testament (as well as many other sources throughout the world) actually happened. Who knows what cultures and civilizations were wiped out?

According to most, civilization and ancient history (writing) began 5,000 - 6,000 years ago in places like Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley region of Pakistan, the Huang He (Yellow River) valley of China, the island of Crete in the Aegean Sea and Cental America.

Could this be when the Great Flood happened?

Why is this date - 6,000 years ago - so important to the Judea-Christian religions, anyway? Is it because it means God's Children are better than everybody else - teacher's pet?

Sheesh! Why have I spent all afternoon writing all this rubbish? I should be out enjoying the sun. Oh, great Sun-God, Ra - guide me to the nearest icecream van

 

[Deborah]

Ah, geez, Flagg, I thought you were talking about me in your "Bovine" thread when you said "Literotica-ism. You have two cows that don't produce any milk because they're spending too much time debating the existence of a divine being."

Not to worry, dude, no more "nightmare" via me for a few days. I'm off on a little vacation as soon as the clock strikes afternoon, which is in one hour. Hey Rog, it's not afternoon where I'm at yet. I'm three hours east of Eden (Laurel's place).

So you guys keep reading your bibles and by the time I get back maybe you'll have a firm grip on your dicks, 'er I mean the existence of God. What the hell is in the water over there anyway?

(You know I'm kidding, don't you?)

 

[Endlessly]

Have fun on your trip, Deborah; we'll miss you while you're gone. And don't worry about Flagg; Michael used to call me a lot worse. *wry smile*

 

[Guest]

Deborah - what do they put in our water? Chlorine mostly. Happy Holy Days.

Kerrie - Don Van Vliet sends his regards from the Mojave desert.