Too much money?

[SimonDoom]

The need for specifity really depends on what you are trying to convey. One of my characters drives a Toyota minivan, saying a Toyota Sienna doesn't add any real value to to the reader.
On the other hand if she drove a BMW sedan there is a huge difference between her driving a 3 series or a 7 series and that should tell the reader something.

I think this is the key point. It depends on what you are trying to convey.

If you tell the readers that your character drives a pickup truck, it tells them something different from telling them they drive a minivan. Readers will get an image in their mind, and that may be your point. It may or may not be important to provide information about the brand or model.

If you tell your readers that the character drives a Volvo, then without knowing anything more the reader may form a picture in their mind that this character values safety and reliability. If you tell them your character drives a Porsche, it conveys a sense of sportiness or flair. The reader doesn't necessarily need to know the model.

Pointing out that your character drives a 7-series BMW rather than a 3-series BMW conveys useful information about the character's probable level of wealth, but as an author you have to decide whether you are providing useful information or providing information that has no use to those readers who don't know the difference. These are tricky calls.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Pointing out that your character drives a 7-series BMW rather than a 3-series BMW conveys useful information about the character's probable level of wealth, but as an author you have to decide whether you are providing useful information or providing information that has no use to those readers who don't know the difference. These are tricky calls.

If a character drives a 7 series BMW (I don;t even know what that is except that BMW is high end car) the reader is told that the author is a car geek who has to include his fave car into his fave fantasy. : P

 

[Britva415]

@feel_the_beast I appreciate this! You know some stories I haven't seen.

I kind of thought you had higher-stakes conflicts in mind, I guess. "Major plot points" as opposed to just making things convenient and easy. Like, I asked for examples of when the money was (to quote you) "a lazy way of resolving the conflict we have set up for our characters."

I'm not trying to split hairs but just speaking for myself, I see the below more as "lazy conflicts" rather than legit conflicts with lazy resolutions.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I do know what the stakes are in some of your examples:

has no problem spending lots of it on travel and gifts to accommodate his relationship, to help his lover and keep her happy. She's not a golddigger

What's the conflict in the story which money is solving? "Keep her happy - " what makes her unhappy and how does the money solve it?

unimaginable, wealth, which he uses to accommodate his hedonistic lifestyle and his many female partners, and deal with various problems that arise

Like what problems?

the older retired man in annoyed by time away from his love while she's at work, so suggests to gift her a substantial share of his wealth, via a trust fund, so no matter what happens to the relationship, she knows she never has to work again if she doesn't want to, and they can spend more time together

Does that solve the problem or does she just keep her job?

A very large portion of popular stories here have a similar setting in which protagonists are, if not filthy rich, at least sufficiently well off that spending a lot of money to resolve some of their problems does not concern them

I still don't feel like I'm seeing a problem solved other than "money makes things convenient and easy." Your case of the woman who might stop working, that does go beyond that, but, I don't know whether she will stop working or not.

I can't think of examples but I feel like I have seen at least a couple of stories where the billionaire's wealth is the conflict, and the stakes are to preserve or enable the relationship by the characters figuring out how to make the money stop affecting interpersonal dynamics. These can be quite romantic.

It seems like we're on the same page, as far as regarding money as often just a kind of deus ex machina in a lot of stories.

 

[Britva415]

there is a huge difference between her driving a 3 series or a 7 series and that should tell the reader something

Too specific for me.

as an author you have to decide whether you are providing useful information or providing information that has no use to those readers who don't know the difference. These are tricky calls

I'd just see "BMW" and any further subtlety than that would escape me. But that's job half done, I think. Other readers probably would get the complete message.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I think this is the key point. It depends on what you are trying to convey.

If you tell the readers that your character drives a pickup truck, it tells them something different from telling them they drive a minivan. Readers will get an image in their mind, and that may be your point. It may or may not be important to provide information about the brand or model.

If you tell your readers that the character drives a Volvo, then without knowing anything more the reader may form a picture in their mind that this character values safety and reliability. If you tell them your character drives a Porsche, it conveys a sense of sportiness or flair. The reader doesn't necessarily need to know the model.

Pointing out that your character drives a 7-series BMW rather than a 3-series BMW conveys useful information about the character's probable level of wealth, but as an author you have to decide whether you are providing useful information or providing information that has no use to those readers who don't know the difference. These are tricky calls.

Absolutely, which is why you can convey that information multiple ways.
Drop three or four clues and most readers will pick up on at least one.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Too specific for me.


I'd just see "BMW" and any further subtlety than that would escape me. But that's job half done, I think. Other readers probably would get the complete message.

Agreed, some readers will miss any reference you use, it's about providing enough information that they get your point. Far less crass than describing your character as really rich.

 

[feel_the_beast]

@feel_the_beast I appreciate this! You know some stories I haven't seen.

I kind of thought you had higher-stakes conflicts in mind, I guess. "Major plot points" as opposed to just making things convenient and easy. Like, I asked for examples of when the money was (to quote you) "a lazy way of resolving the conflict we have set up for our characters."

I'm not trying to split hairs but just speaking for myself, I see the below more as "lazy conflicts" rather than legit conflicts with lazy resolutions.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I do know what the stakes are in some of your examples:

What's the conflict in the story which money is solving? "Keep her happy - " what makes her unhappy and how does the money solve it?


Like what problems?


Does that solve the problem or does she just keep her job?


I still don't feel like I'm seeing a problem solved other than "money makes things convenient and easy." Your case of the woman who might stop working, that does go beyond that, but, I don't know whether she will stop working or not.

I can't think of examples but I feel like I have seen at least a couple of stories where the billionaire's wealth is the conflict, and the stakes are to preserve or enable the relationship by the characters figuring out how to make the money stop affecting interpersonal dynamics. These can be quite romantic.

It seems like we're on the same page, as far as regarding money as often just a kind of deus ex machina in a lot of stories.

I guess some of this 'problem solving' I'm talking about is in the nature of creating characters wealthy enough to not have problems most of the rest of us face. The nine-to five grind, so that we can't just deal with issues when they come up, but must find time outside work hours. Luxuries we'd like to have but can't afford. The need to schedule vacations around available time off from work. Not being able to afford late model high-end vehicles, and having to drive cars that break down and have to go in the shop for repairs we can barely afford. Not being able to afford to eat out a lot, and so having to know how to cook. Being priced out of the housing market, and forced to live in cheap apartments. Only making enough to get through to the next paycheck-maybe.
It's so easy to just toss a few words on a page-sold a successful business; mom and dad were old money; invested well-and magically all these mundane issues most people wrestle with everyday just go away.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I think this is the key point. It depends on what you are trying to convey.

If you tell the readers that your character drives a pickup truck, it tells them something different from telling them they drive a minivan. Readers will get an image in their mind, and that may be your point. It may or may not be important to provide information about the brand or model.

If you tell your readers that the character drives a Volvo, then without knowing anything more the reader may form a picture in their mind that this character values safety and reliability. If you tell them your character drives a Porsche, it conveys a sense of sportiness or flair. The reader doesn't necessarily need to know the model.

Pointing out that your character drives a 7-series BMW rather than a 3-series BMW conveys useful information about the character's probable level of wealth, but as an author you have to decide whether you are providing useful information or providing information that has no use to those readers who don't know the difference. These are tricky calls.

Figuring out what perceptions your readers will have isn't always based on accuracy, either. Newspapers were still reporting a couple years ago on someone having 'a flat-screen TV', as shorthand for 'a feckless type who's probably on benefits, so using YOUR hard-earned taxes to pay for their fripperies!!!' Nowadays they mention 'smartphone' in the same way, totally ignoring that you need internet access in order to claim benefits, get paid, and do pretty much anything in the modern era.

A pick-up truck driver presumably is a normal American guy, probably not from a big city, blue-collar worker? Though with various tax exemptions and all, I hear many people who used to buy vans and MPVs are now buying pickups, so that view may change. In the UK the only people who drive pickups are young lads who are wannabe rap artists and want to look American, so everyone else sees a black pickup and thinks 'wanker!' Mention an old pickup with repaired rust patches, and they might get the idea.

The soccer moms are buying 4x4s rather than MPVs now. BMWs will likely be seen as a luxury brand for years despite their cheap ranges being cheaper than say a similar Ford saloon, though they do have a rep in the UK as being "I'm a sales rep and have been given my first company car, to go with my shiny suit". I doubt many people know what the different numbered series mean.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Figuring out what perceptions your readers will have isn't always based on accuracy, either. Newspapers were still reporting a couple years ago on someone having 'a flat-screen TV', as shorthand for 'a feckless type who's probably on benefits, so using YOUR hard-earned taxes to pay for their fripperies!!!' Nowadays they mention 'smartphone' in the same way, totally ignoring that you need internet access in order to claim benefits, get paid, and do pretty much anything in the modern era.

A pick-up truck driver presumably is a normal American guy, probably not from a big city, blue-collar worker? Though with various tax exemptions and all, I hear many people who used to buy vans and MPVs are now buying pickups, so that view may change. In the UK the only people who drive pickups are young lads who are wannabe rap artists and want to look American, so everyone else sees a black pickup and thinks 'wanker!' Mention an old pickup with repaired rust patches, and they might get the idea.

The soccer moms are buying 4x4s rather than MPVs now. BMWs will likely be seen as a luxury brand for years despite their cheap ranges being cheaper than say a similar Ford saloon, though they do have a rep in the UK as being "I'm a sales rep and have been given my first company car, to go with my shiny suit". I doubt many people know what the different numbered series mean.

Pickup trucks are now standard issue for suburban dads, and a luxury pickup can easily top $100,000.
https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/f-150-raptor

Price range $80-100k.

 

[Katie_Mae]

Figuring out what perceptions your readers will have isn't always based on accuracy, either.

A interaction I observed between a friend and another guy:

Guy: What do you do for work?
Friend? I drive uber.
Guy: You own a car! Wow. You must be rich! (said unsarcastically)

These are adult men, not teenagers or anything.


Showing a character is wealthy (or poor or whatever) isn't just about what objects they own. It's a lot about attitude (and attitude towards those possessions.) Also, their feelings towards other people's attitudes/behaviours etc.

And wealth is relative. I don't just mean the dollar value, which is obviously variable, but I mean people's perceptions of wealth. How your character views the wealth of others says just as much about your character as the character they are perceiving.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I still don't feel like I'm seeing a problem solved other than "money makes things convenient and easy." Your case of the woman who might stop working, that does go beyond that, but, I don't know whether she will stop working or not.

I can't think of examples but I feel like I have seen at least a couple of stories where the billionaire's wealth is the conflict, and the stakes are to preserve or enable the relationship by the characters figuring out how to make the money stop affecting interpersonal dynamics. These can be quite romantic.

Seconding this. I'm no millionaire, let alone billionaire, but I'm doing better than most folk and I have had several relationships and friendships where my partner was struggling financially. Several times we had situations where I could easily have covered something like a car repair that was a huge thing for them, and I'd happily have done so...but they weren't willing to take the money.

People value independence, and taking charity from a friend or lover can feel like a threat to that. Even when the giver intends it as a no-strings-attached thing, conscientious people often find it hard not to feel obligated when given something like that, and obligation isn't a good foundation for a relationship.

I've been on the other side of that situation too; I chose to pay rent and live in a share place with crappy housemates rather than stay for free at my parents' place, because even though I have a good relationship with them I needed to feel independent more than I needed the money.

I've seen other relationships turn toxic on that account - one person got sick, couldn't work, and ended up being dependent on her partner. When he started treating her badly, she redirected her resentment towards everybody else in her life, because she couldn't afford to break up with him.

It's something that shows up in a few of my stories: money is nice to have, but a power gap between people makes it hard to have a healthy relationship as equals, and wealth is a form of power.

 

[TheLobster]

I am completely baffled by the apparent layers of subtext hidden behind one's choice of car make in the American culture.

Here in (continental) Europe, BMW simply means a German car. There is some connotation of reliability that comes with the country's reputation for making quality products that last, but I wouldn't say there is anything particular tied to the brand itself. They produce both luxury and affordable cars, as do many other car manufacturers.

Outside of the most well-known brands of sportscars or limousines, like Porsche or Lamborghini or Lexus, one's choice of car make just doesn't seem very significant.

 

[Britva415]

Here in (continental) Europe, BMW simply means a German car.

Here in the USA, "German car" is synonymous with "expensive car." Even the entry-level European car is quite a bit more expensive than entry-level Japanese or Korean cars, and feature for feature, that dollars-to-dollars comparison holds at the luxury level too.

So it's entirely about perceptions of money, if not actual dollars spent. An entry-level BMW is quite a bit cheaper than a top-trim, luxe-model Toyota, but if all you say is "BMW" or "Toyota" then nobody will imagine that the dollar figures are inverted from the expectation.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Here in the USA, "German car" is synonymous with "expensive car." Even the entry-level European car is quite a bit more expensive than entry-level Japanese or Korean cars, and feature for feature, that dollars-to-dollars comparison holds at the luxury level too.

So it's entirely about perceptions of money, if not actual dollars spent. An entry-level BMW is quite a bit cheaper than a top-trim, luxe-model Toyota, but if all you say is "BMW" or "Toyota" then nobody will imagine that the dollar figures are inverted from the expectation.

The UK perception is similar - BMW, Mercs and Audis are all presented as somewhat luxurious brands for successful people, so there's an assumption that they're expensive, even if usually provided by an employer. At the same time, their drivers are assumed to be wankers, with the usual joke being that despite their wealth, BMW/Merc/Audi drivers never bother paying the extra for turn indicators to be installed...

I recently read a novel with a lot of African gangsters, and a lot of named vehicle models. Every time there was an ambush of an armed convoy and lots of shooting, the bad(der) guys were in a Toyota Hilux. After about the tenth time, I have to admit I was put off anyone who might drive one, even more than the local drug-dealer knobhead stereotype had already!

 

[Katie_Mae]

I know next to nothing about car models. So rather than getting off my lazy arse and researching it, one time I wanted to show my character had a fancy car I had another character look at it, whistle and say "nice."
(The woman involved wasn't impressed by the car BTW )

 

[MillieDynamite]

I can see where having too much money would be a problem. The more you have, the bigger the problem. I should have such a big problem, don't you think?

 

[TheLobster]

Here in the USA, "German car" is synonymous with "expensive car."

The UK perception is similar

Conclusion: any amount of water, be it the 30 miles of English Channel or 3000 miles of Atlantic Ocean, will make cars from the others perceived to be similarly expensive

 

[yowser]

Conclusion: any amount of water, be it the 30 miles of English Channel or 3000 miles of Atlantic Ocean, will make cars from the others perceived to be similarly expensive

I know you're joking but things are a bit more complicated.

The US is an extraordinarily car-centric place, and the automobile, from day one, has always had status connected to it. People take all manner of meanings from the brand of car one owns, and US readers will pick up on this in story settings.

Also, non-US car manufacturers distort the picture. BMW and Mercedes make a wide range of vehicles, but in the US they only sell up-market models, ie. expensive. In Munich having your next door neighbor driving a BMW doesn't mean much, in Chicago it does. Both makes also make sure to put the model designation on their trunk (BMW 440i or 325) in the US so everyone knows what version it is, this doesn't happen in Europe.

So the big guys know their market and try to leverage the expensive/high quality end of things.

 

[HordHolm]

I'm not a fan of resurrecting threads normally, but I found this quote from the murder-mystery author Dorothy L Sayers, creator of the detective Lord Peter Wimsey. It might be interesting:

Lord Peter's large income... I deliberately gave him... After all it cost me nothing and at the time I was particularly hard up and it gave me pleasure to spend his fortune for him. When I was dissatisfied with my single unfurnished room I took a luxurious flat for him in Piccadilly. When my cheap rug got a hole in it, I ordered him an Aubusson carpet. When I had no money to pay my bus fare I presented him with a Daimler double-six, upholstered in a style of sober magnificence, and when I felt dull I let him drive it. I can heartily recommend this inexpensive way of furnishing to all who are discontented with their incomes. It relieves the mind and does no harm to anybody.

 

[PennyThompson]

Because I'm totally urbanism-pilled, I tend to write a lot of my settings as functional communities where young people can live modestly comfortable lives, walk or take transit to interesting places for fun times, and not have to worry about crippling debt or overwhelming soul crushing jobs.

None of my characters have been wealthy, they just don't live in capitalist hellscapes that extract all the joy out of their lives.

Except for Becky in the furniture store story, which I didn't even fully realize had become a critique of influencer capitalism until @THBGato pointed it out

 

[MillieDynamite]

You changed your picie-poo!

Because I'm totally urbanism-pilled, I tend to write a lot of my settings as functional communities where young people can live modestly comfortable lives, walk or take transit to interesting places for fun times, and not have to worry about crippling debt or overwhelming soul crushing jobs.

None of my characters have been wealthy, they just don't live in capitalist hellscapes that extract all the joy out of their lives.

Except for Becky in the furniture store story, which I didn't even fully realize had become a critique of influencer capitalism until @THBGato pointed it out

 

[PennyThompson]

You changed your picie-poo!

I learned that full face avatars are basically dick pic magnets here

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I learned that full face avatars are basically dick pic magnets here

We get another pair like you two and we'll have a full face.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm not a fan of resurrecting threads normally, but I found this quote from the murder-mystery author Dorothy L Sayers, creator of the detective Lord Peter Wimsey. It might be interesting:

Lord Peter's large income... I deliberately gave him... After all it cost me nothing and at the time I was particularly hard up and it gave me pleasure to spend his fortune for him. When I was dissatisfied with my single unfurnished room I took a luxurious flat for him in Piccadilly. When my cheap rug got a hole in it, I ordered him an Aubusson carpet. When I had no money to pay my bus fare I presented him with a Daimler double-six, upholstered in a style of sober magnificence, and when I felt dull I let him drive it. I can heartily recommend this inexpensive way of furnishing to all who are discontented with their incomes. It relieves the mind and does no harm to anybody.

To think that if DLS had had access to The Sims, Lord Peter might never have existed.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'll keep an eye on you—the right one, in case you are directionally challenged—my Mum is!

We get another pair like you two and we'll have a full face.