Topping From The Bottom vs. Communication

[LifelongCyn]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. This was more an intellectual exercise for me rather than an issue in my relationship. It was just something that came up and since every relationship is different, I was interested to see what others' take on it would be.

Harlot Minx's post resonated with me. The question of positive manipulation is interesting. Unfortunately, I can't seem to form a coherent follow up question. A lot of the examples that pop into my head involve allowing others to perform little services for me because I know that doing so makes them feel useful, for example, opening a door or lifting a heavy object. I'm not sure what would be comparable in a D/s context.

 

[HarlotMinx]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. This was more an intellectual exercise for me rather than an issue in my relationship. It was just something that came up and since every relationship is different, I was interested to see what others' take on it would be.

Harlot Minx's post resonated with me. The question of positive manipulation is interesting. Unfortunately, I can't seem to form a coherent follow up question. A lot of the examples that pop into my head involve allowing others to perform little services for me because I know that doing so makes them feel useful, for example, opening a door or lifting a heavy object. I'm not sure what would be comparable in a D/s context.

Throwing themselves down in a mud puddle for you to walk across? Being a human chair or table for an hour? I know quite a few kinksters who've tried to offer me foot massages.

 

[Adakgirl]

Assuming we have the right to say anyone is topping from the bottom, I'm not sure we really do, what of a Dom/me bottoming from the top?

The only reason I ask is I was thinking back to a local club and I remembered a conversation with one of the Dommes who was chatting with Moon and I. At one point in the conversation she mentioned that she had to put her hair up in a bun because her sub thought that all Dommes are required to have that to fit the image. And thinking about it further, how many Dom/mes do you know that dress or act in a way to fit a look (Moon had a sub come up to her and tell her she shouldn't wear a choker because people would mistake her for a sub and not treat her with proper respect..... I spit up what I was drinking at the time from laughter)? At first we thought that a sub like that is definitely topping from the bottom but really isn't the Domme then submitting to the sub?

I don't know, I've started to question if topping from the bottom exists or are there simply relationships that exist and we as a community use it to explain away someone else's relationship dynamic that we do not readily agree with? And if indeed topping from the bottom exists what then of Dom/mes? Are they just service tops? Is it then more acceptable for a Dom to cater to a sub than a sub to expect a Dom/me to cater to them?

People are inherently manipulative, it's one thing I think is impossible to escape. We do/say things in order to put a situation in circumstances that favor us or our goals. Even a sub who says their only goal in life is to see their Mistress/Master happy will be manipulative to that end. What if the PYL doesn't want to be happy? I know I don't always want to be happy, sometimes I want to be screaming in anger or helpless with tears not an eternal bliss.

So... where this comes to, if a person is manipulative in a way that benefits their partner's goals, does that then become acceptable? If their goals are differ from yours (we always have some desire that varies from our partner), is it then unacceptable? Moon's been trying to get me to be more vegetarian (it's one of my 5 hard limits ) and it's simply not going to happen... I don't begrudge her for trying though.

Just looking at the topic backwards and upside down.

-poppet

Excellent post HarlotMinx bravo!!

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I think I'm at a impasse here. There are times where I don't do things and don't want to do things that Moon manipulates me into doing. Now often these things are are for my own good in the end (she's better at that whole planning and organizing thing) and so we enter a gray area. Is it good manipulation or bad? I mean, she's getting me to do things I don't like and don't really do normally but by her own view... and mine after the fact, it helps me. Does this become a good type of manipulation because I give her that power and ultimately I do it even if I don't like it? Personally I feel it's a good manipulation but if I weren't so lucky to have a mistress who I trusted enough to make those decisions or if I had one who manipulated me to do things that weren't in my best interest... I mean where do we judge if a manipulation is good or bad? It all seems like a really gray area to me; like that whole "kill one to save a thousand" idea.

-poppet

I have this issue. Master is good at motivating me to do stuff I should get on with without complaint. Unfortunately, I'm not so gracious when he stomps about putting foot to ass. He isn't the most motivated person himself and that irks me because he is getting on my back about a failing he also possesses. I know he has that right but I get pissed off with myself for feeling that I need a domly pep talk.

I try not to be manipulative but I really have to watch myself sometimes. I can hear the way I phrase things at times and I know exactly what I'm doing. When you're at the living together and finishing each other's sentences stage of things, you know the other person so well that you know exactly how to 'offer information' in a way that, while it isn't a request or attempt to claw back power, your SO knows damn well what outcome you'd like. It's almost subliminal in some ways, when you know someone that well. On occasion, I've even got my own way like that and it's a shame because it always saddens me and erodes my faith in our dynamic for a time.

I suppose on balance I agree with whoever said 'it's not what you say, it's what you expect to happen as a result' or something similar. I can offer Master any amount of info but I should not expect a specific outcome or decision from him and be pissed off if I don't get it. Offering biased information can be labelled TFTB because you're influencing things in a dishonest way in order to cloud a person's judgment. I think all subs are guilty of occasional little failings like that because we're all only human but if it becomes a regular thing to be dishonest and manipulative then a dangerous pattern is set.

It's like, there was a blind politician over here a while back and a lot of controversy surrounded him for a number of reasons. What I disliked though, was the knowledge that the elected blind cabinet minister was making decisions based purely on information supplied by unelected staff. Every line of Braille he read, every comment he heard and every situation he had described to him had been packaged up into soundbites by someone else with their own agenda. A PYL can't see into your soul and know what's really going on with you. S/he needs clear and unbiased info on that in order to make decisions that benefit the couple/group/family as a whole.

Ok, I'm waffling now. Hopefully some portion of this is relevant.

 

[rinka]

I get the definition of manipulating consciously. But I sometimes feel that I unwantingly manipulate emotionally. My PYL wants me to be transparent and open about my emotions. In this relationship I am very emotional, often very needy and I do communicate this.

It's not so much what but when. My feelings and needs sometimes influence the interaction and time-table a little too much I fear.

 

[Marquis]

I believe it becomes the oh so dreaded TFTB when you are manipulating your PYL to get what you want.

Honest, straightforward communication is not TFTB IMO, and is in fact, one of the healthiest things one can do for any relationship.

People LOVE to say you are TFTB but it's so terrible. Unless this comes from your PYL don't pay any attention from people trying to put you down.

I just want to point out to the OP that this is coming from the toppiest bottom on all of Lit, and that's saying something.

That said, this is very much how I look at it. If you want something, you should ask for it, and in my and many other relationships that is in keeping with the understanding that the ultimate purpose of the relationship is to provide me with pleasure and obedience.

I consider topping from the bottom to be akin to bratty children - you know it when you see it, but not everyone sees it the same way.

Totally.

 

[FurryFury]

I just want to point out to the OP that this is coming from the toppiest bottom on all of Lit, and that's saying something.

That said, this is very much how I look at it. If you want something, you should ask for it, and in my and many other relationships that is in keeping with the understanding that the ultimate purpose of the relationship is to provide me with pleasure and obedience.



Totally.

Me? The toppiest bottom???

 

[Marquis]

Me? The toppiest bottom???

.....

 

[HarlotMinx]

You know what, after helping staff a little's Easter egg hunt, I totally think that bratty children example is void in some groups.... hell the bratty child thing could very well be foreplay.

 

[Harmony_1985]

These are the basic needs of all human beings.


Physiological Needs
These are biological needs. They consist of needs for oxygen, food, water, and a relatively constant body temperature. They are the strongest needs because if a person were deprived of all needs, the physiological ones would come first in the person's search for satisfaction.

Safety Needs
When all physiological needs are satisfied and are no longer controlling thoughts and behaviors, the needs for security can become active. Adults have little awareness of their security needs except in times of emergency or periods of disorganization in the social structure (such as widespread rioting). Children often display the signs of insecurity and the need to be safe.

Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness
When the needs for safety and for physiological well-being are satisfied, the next class of needs for love, affection and belongingness can emerge. Maslow states that people seek to overcome feelings of loneliness and alienation. This involves both giving and receiving love, affection and the sense of belonging.

Needs for Esteem
When the first three classes of needs are satisfied, the needs for esteem can become dominant. These involve needs for both self-esteem and for the esteem a person gets from others. Humans have a need for a stable, firmly based, high level of self-respect, and respect from others. When these needs are satisfied, the person feels self-confident and valuable as a person in the world. When these needs are frustrated, the person feels inferior, weak, helpless and worthless.

Needs for Self-Actualization
When all of the foregoing needs are satisfied, then and only then are the needs for self-actualization activated. Maslow describes self-actualization as a person's need to be and do that which the person was "born to do." "A musician must make music, an artist must paint, and a poet must write." These needs make themselves felt in signs of restlessness. The person feels on edge, tense, lacking something, in short, restless. If a person is hungry, unsafe, not loved or accepted, or lacking self-esteem, it is very easy to know what the person is restless about. It is not always clear what a person wants when there is a need for self-actualization.

I've seen those as a pyramid diagram in a uni lecture

And as its been said, its how you ask for what you want and how you get it.

Sir has always said if I want something to ask for it, but it doesn't mean I'll get it. I don't make Sir give me it if he says no, and that to me, is how it should work.

 

[FurryFury]

You know what, after helping staff a little's Easter egg hunt, I totally think that bratty children example is void in some groups.... hell the bratty child thing could very well be foreplay.

I am really confused by your post. Could you elaborate?

 

[HarlotMinx]

I am really confused by your post. Could you elaborate?

Oh I was just commenting on....

I consider topping from the bottom to be akin to bratty children - you know it when you see it, but not everyone sees it the same way.

I understand she was talking in metaphor but it struck me at the Easter event that some people's fetish is to be bratty children. Having never volunteered (I tend to cook food on swingers nights) at a littles event I was a bit surprised at how different it was from what the club traditionally gets.

 

[FurryFury]

Oh I was just commenting on....



I understand she was talking in metaphor but it struck me at the Easter event that some people's fetish is to be bratty children. Having never volunteered (I tend to cook food on swingers nights) at a littles event I was a bit surprised at how different it was from what the club traditionally gets.

Thanks for answering! I get what you are saying now.

Personally I can't stand brat-ness myself but I do know some who seem to get a kick out of it.

BTW, I've helped organize egg hunts. It can be quite the undertaking.