Topping from the bottom

[serijules]

I feel that the intent behind an action speaks a lot louder than the action itself.

If the sub questions something over and over because s/he is genuinely confused and uneasy with it, I don't think that is topping from the bottom. I feel it should be a sign to the Dom that there is a potential problem that needs to be looked into, rather than an attempt to manipulate.

If said sub questions something over and over because s/he doesn't agree with it and wants the answer adjusted more to her liking....it's topping from the bottom, and manipulative to boot. The "you don't love me, I'm not good enough for you!" whine is another good example.

I am a playful tease...I often tease and 'pout' about something with Dom/me friends of mine...and they know I am teasing and enjoy teasing back.

Here's an example....A Domme friend requested that I bring my toys to our next meeting. I teasingly have said on a few occasions that I was not bringing the toys, and she teasingly threatened to punish me if I didn't, even wrote me a story based on me not bringing them. We both know that I will respect the request, but because of the light-hearted nature of the weekend in question, we are both enjoying bantaring about it....me 'refusing' and her 'punishing'. To many people it may look like I am manipulating her into spanking me and giving me the scene I want...but between us, it's perfectly acceptable, because we both know the intent. I know many Dom/me's would not accept that bantaring or allow it, but in this situation with this person, it is fine.

I don't think there is any set formula for determining topping from the bottom...it will vary with each person and what is acceptable to them. However, if the intent behind the action is to get what you want regardless of what the Top may feel, or to provoke the top to react...I think that's a pretty good indication. True teasing has no intentions behind it other than mutual fun and mutual laughs.

 

[zipman]

I feel that the intent behind an action speaks a lot louder than the action itself.

If the sub questions something over and over because s/he is genuinely confused and uneasy with it, I don't think that is topping from the bottom. I feel it should be a sign to the Dom that there is a potential problem that needs to be looked into, rather than an attempt to manipulate.

If said sub questions something over and over because s/he doesn't agree with it and wants the answer adjusted more to her liking....it's topping from the bottom, and manipulative to boot. The "you don't love me, I'm not good enough for you!" whine is another good example.

I am a playful tease...I often tease and 'pout' about something with Dom/me friends of mine...and they know I am teasing and enjoy teasing back.

Here's an example....A Domme friend requested that I bring my toys to our next meeting. I teasingly have said on a few occasions that I was not bringing the toys, and she teasingly threatened to punish me if I didn't, even wrote me a story based on me not bringing them. We both know that I will respect the request, but because of the light-hearted nature of the weekend in question, we are both enjoying bantaring about it....me 'refusing' and her 'punishing'. To many people it may look like I am manipulating her into spanking me and giving me the scene I want...but between us, it's perfectly acceptable, because we both know the intent. I know many Dom/me's would not accept that bantaring or allow it, but in this situation with this person, it is fine.

I don't think there is any set formula for determining topping from the bottom...it will vary with each person and what is acceptable to them. However, if the intent behind the action is to get what you want regardless of what the Top may feel, or to provoke the top to react...I think that's a pretty good indication. True teasing has no intentions behind it other than mutual fun and mutual laughs.

Good post Serijules. I think you make some important distinctions around intent. Unfortunately, intent is not always easy to understand. That is why I view repeated questioning as a strong warning signal.

There are a number of reasons that questioning can occur:
1) The Dom has not explained something correctly or in enough detail
2) The sub has not communicate clearly regarding the limits that she agreed to
3) The sub is trying to top from the bottom

I wouldn't consider the scenario that you raised as topping from the bottom. Teasing can be a fun and playful way to interact. I was speaking more about using questioning as a form of manipulation in my post. Your additional points are well taken.

 

[serijules]

Unfortunately, intent is not always easy to understand. That is why I view repeated questioning as a strong warning signal.

*nods* That's where communication comes in, as your great post on communication states so well. <grin>

Intent and Communication....kinda one of those love and marriage things...~can't have one without the otherrrr.~ (well, you can, but then television makes a series out of you)

*hums along, Bundy style*

 

[MsWorthy]

. . .

I don't think there is any set formula for determining topping from the bottom...it will vary with each person and what is acceptable to them. However, if the intent behind the action is to get what you want regardless of what the Top may feel, or to provoke the top to react...I think that's a pretty good indication. True teasing has no intentions behind it other than mutual fun and mutual laughs.

. . .

I think this is a good point, and can help to distinguish between teasing and manipulation.

If the dom/me is feeling frustrated, annoyed, or pressured, the goal is probably to manipulate. Once the dom/me makes it clear that she/he does not like this repeated questioning/teasing, if it continues, it then moves into manipulation/tfb (topping from the bottom) territory.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Well, I know I am always pissing some people off, but I do not not have that problem. It has nothing to do with me being "perfect", it has to do with three major things:

1) How I pick (screen) my subs.

2) How I interact with with them,

3) How I train them.

I require them to give me detailed information about their kinks and desires. I spend lots of time talking to them about their desires, and kinks.

I carefully pick subs who have congruent desires and kinks. what I mean is that I make damn sure they are compatible with my temperament and needs.

I train them to serve me ways that incorporate their needs and desires. Since we have congruency, it is not a big deal to do so.

I do not except subs who I find not to my liking for ANY reason, including their kinks. and if I am not to their liking, no harm, no foul.

I also spend free (read vanilla) time with them to interact in a whole different realm. I get a 360 degree view of their personality, their hobbies, interests, and social interactions.

So, as for topping from the bottom, I do not get it, cause I know how to get what I want, and I know how to control what they get. They know I know what they want, and they also know that if they please me, there is a good chance one of their kinks will be a well deserved reward.


Maybe male subs are more sincere when they finally do capitulate. Who knows? I try not to analyze things too much.

If it is not broke, don't fix it!

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

Once the dom/me makes it clear that she/he does not like this repeated questioning/teasing, if it continues, it then moves into manipulation/tfb (topping from the bottom) territory.

I agree. I only have one who is kinda impish. I have never felt frustrated by him. All I have to say to him is "enough" , and he stops, and apologizes.

Then is it back to business as usual.

However, I am aware that things are more complcated when living the same house. There are more opportunities for this sort of thing to occur.

Eb

 

[zipman]

I agree. I only have one who is kinda impish. I have never felt frustrated by him. All I have to say to him is "enough" , and he stops, and apologizes.

Then is it back to business as usual.

However, I am aware that things are more complcated when living the same house. There are more opportunities for this sort of thing to occur.

Eb

I also think it depends on how the BDSM relationship begins. Yours start with your screening process, which certainly gets a lot of the issues out of the way early. Mine began as a 'nilla relationship where BDSM has been introduced. This can make it a lot more difficult and requires a lot more patience as I am introducing someone to BDSM slowly for the first time. I think that testing the limits might be more likely in a relationship like mine.

Zip

 

[artful]

Topping from the bottom=Manipulation

Manipulation is sometimes very difficult to identify, "Out of Scene". I think it inolves MAINLY the two people who are *IN* a relationship. I have ONE set rule to identify it.

If I feel PRESSURED,...then someone is ATTEMPTING to manipulate me. Does this mean I never get manipulated? Certainly not! Any of us can be manipulated, (whether Dom/me or sub).

Does this mean the person who is ATTEMPTING to manipulate me is AWARE, consciously, they are doing so? I don't think so!

The INTENT of the manipulator, is what determines whether it be a, selfless or selfish, type of manipulation.

Is the manipulator trying to get me to do something that is beneficial to ME? Or are they trying to get me to do something that would be considered beneficial to THEM.

Can any of us determine for SURE, whether or not the manipulator has good or bad INTENTIONS? Sad to say,...usually not till AFTER it has been done.

That's why, I have one set rule to identify it:

"If I feel PRESSURED,...then someone is ATTEMPTING to manipulate me."

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[Desdemona]

Thank you all for adding to this discussion. It helped me understand this much better.

 

[zipman]

Thank you all for adding to this discussion. It helped me understand this much better.

Thank you for starting the thread Des, it is a great one! There are some threads that really just become full of great posts and great discussions. This was clearly one of them.

I look forward to your next thread!

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Topping from the bottom=Manipulation

Manipulation is sometimes very difficult to identify, "Out of Scene". I think it inolves MAINLY the two people who are *IN* a relationship. I have ONE set rule to identify it.

If I feel PRESSURED,...then someone is ATTEMPTING to manipulate me. Does this mean I never get manipulated? Certainly not! Any of us can be manipulated, (whether Dom/me or sub).

Does this mean the person who is ATTEMPTING to manipulate me is AWARE, consciously, they are doing so? I don't think so!

The INTENT of the manipulator, is what determines whether it be a, selfless or selfish, type of manipulation.

Is the manipulator trying to get me to do something that is beneficial to ME? Or are they trying to get me to do something that would be considered beneficial to THEM.

Can any of us determine for SURE, whether or not the manipulator has good or bad INTENTIONS? Sad to say,...usually not till AFTER it has been done.

That's why, I have one set rule to identify it:

"If I feel PRESSURED,...then someone is ATTEMPTING to manipulate me."

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

________________________________

when Master types to me that He FEELS "PRESSURED' TO me ,then thats time for me to take pause and THINK about what I am "REALLY ' trying to accomplish as my goal is to make Him happy NOT stressed"

 

[MissTaken]

Tears!

Tears are a huge tool when trying to manipulate a Dom.

The crying coupled with a few statements like, "You don't love me or you would do x,y and z."

Or, crying and drawing attention to one's self as a victim, simply to gain His complete and undivided attention. "She is picking on me!" or in any way creating drama simply to achieve the comfort of your Dom/me when it isn't necessary or real.

There are many ploys that subs may use to control a situation, over use or misuse of a safeword? Oh yeah!

Any lying whatsoever, is topping from the bottom. "Not now, honey, I have a headache?"

IMHO....topping from the bottom is a risk for Dom/mes, and is well worth a sub to be aware of. At least at my age, we all have baggage and experinece. Tools I used in my nilla relationships to get what I needed have no place in BDSM. As I grow in D/s, I find these tools unnecessary, but it has been a matter of learning to trust myself as well as my SO.

Now....brutal honesty? There were times many months ago, I would attempt to top a Dom, new to me. I would attempt to control the situation. It was another litmus test. If he allowed me to do so, he was a goner

That sort of manipulation isn't healthy either.
I just felt like sharing it.

 

[zipman]

Re: Tears!

Tears are a huge tool when trying to manipulate a Dom.

The crying coupled with a few statements like, "You don't love me or you would do x,y and z."

Or, crying and drawing attention to one's self as a victim, simply to gain His complete and undivided attention. "She is picking on me!" or in any way creating drama simply to achieve the comfort of your Dom/me when it isn't necessary or real.

There are many ploys that subs may use to control a situation, over use or misuse of a safeword? Oh yeah!

Any lying whatsoever, is topping from the bottom. "Not now, honey, I have a headache?"

IMHO....topping from the bottom is a risk for Dom/mes, and is well worth a sub to be aware of. At least at my age, we all have baggage and experinece. Tools I used in my nilla relationships to get what I needed have no place in BDSM. As I grow in D/s, I find these tools unnecessary, but it has been a matter of learning to trust myself as well as my SO.

Now....brutal honesty? There were times many months ago, I would attempt to top a Dom, new to me. I would attempt to control the situation. It was another litmus test. If he allowed me to do so, he was a goner

That sort of manipulation isn't healthy either.
I just felt like sharing it.

And what a great post it was MissT. I think if more people were as honest and introspective as you are, the world would indeed be a better place!

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: Tears!

And what a great post it was MissT. I think if more people were as honest and introspective as you are, the world would indeed be a better place!

I don't know about that, z man.

It would certainly be a noiser place.

No one could get a word in edgewise!

 

[serijules]

Re: Tears!

Tears are a huge tool when trying to manipulate a Dom.

The crying coupled with a few statements like, "You don't love me or you would do x,y and z."

Or, crying and drawing attention to one's self as a victim, simply to gain His complete and undivided attention. "She is picking on me!" or in any way creating drama simply to achieve the comfort of your Dom/me when it isn't necessary or real.

This is an excellent point. Tears in and of themselves are not manipulative, but when combined with the "She is picking on meeee!" whine and dramatics...it's not only manipulative, it's extremely immature.

I think this particular example can even extend past the Dom and sub, when a sub goes to another friend (not necessarily someone that Tops them) and trys to get them to feel sorry for her/him through tears and the "I'm so hurt." BS. There is venting and sharing feelings, and then there is attention ploys and manipulation. I think the latter is topping from the bottom, even amoungst friends and other subs.

I don't really cry easily, but when I do, it comes at very odd moments...not during times you would think one would cry. Usually I tend to try to cry alone because I fear that the Dom will see the tears as an attention ploy, and I would hate to be seen like that. So sometimes I hold back TOO much to try to make myself seem more together than I am feeling in that moment. That is almost a form of manipulation itself, only I hurt myself more from it.

 

[MissTaken]

Then,

Doms who have had experience with manipulative subs are more difficult to connect with, IMHO.

They seem to question the veracity of your words and emotions.

If it is meant to be, it requires patience and honest communication on both sides.

We all gots baggage!

 

[serijules]

Then,

Doms who have had experience with manipulative subs are more difficult to connect with, IMHO.

You know though, it seems there are some Doms that WANT that, encourage the manipulation, perhaps so they can constantly 'punish' for it or whatever, and thereafor look like they are in control.

Bottoming from the Top? Does such thing exist?

 

[MissTaken]

It shouldn't.

I would say it doesn't in a true power exchange.

Then, I would edit myself to add that if there is topping from the bottom, it isn't a true power exchange.

So perhaps, it just doesn't exist.

As for Doms who enjoy a bratty sub so that they may punish her repeatedly, there are times it is fun and games.

Then, I hve chatted with Doms who were very proud of how hard they struck their subs.

Well, that just isn't my type.

 

[serijules]

As for Doms who enjoy a bratty sub so that they may punish her repeatedly, there are times it is fun and games.

Yeah I know a lot of couples like this, and it's fine because they KNOW it's manipulative and are ok with that.

I agree though, in a true power exchange TFTB and even BFTT shouldn't exist, at least not often (I'm sure all relationships have their moments).

 

[NemoAlia]

Hey serijules -- you're in luck! Here's a link to a thread called Bottoming from the Top. Just what the doctor ordered, hm?

In my humble opinion, topping from the bottom can be distinguished from simply trying to communicate a need or a desire by distinguishing between scening and speaking frankly as equal. One can't top from the bottom when one isn't on the bottom at the moment.

 

[serijules]

Hey serijules -- you're in luck! Here's a link to a thread called Bottoming from the Top. Just what the doctor ordered, hm?

In my humble opinion, topping from the bottom can be distinguished from simply trying to communicate a need or a desire by distinguishing between scening and speaking frankly as equal. One can't top from the bottom when one isn't on the bottom at the moment.

Why thank you, off to check that out now <g>

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with your opinion, but that's ok cuz I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with my own opinion yet.

It IS friday, right? *sigh*