TPE Slaves Vs Subs...

[brioche]

You've really been resurrecting threads lately, catalina!
I don't think I could ever be a slave. I don't think I have the strength to give over everything to someone else. I still need to feel I have control over my own life.

This makes perfect sense to me , because I had therapy to learn how to deal with a controlling mother. She's not anymore, but oh boy, she was.

As a result, control is one of my - I don't know - issues? When I feel completely out of control of my life, that's when I used to eat and eat...
Even now, I have to remind myself that I'll really regret it if I start that up again.
Also, if I find I *have* to eat I eat low-fat popcorn. You can only eat so much of that before your stomach says stop.
But back to the topic.

Some people find it empowering to give over their whole life, and more power to them, really. They have my respect. But I find keeping some control very, very important. To give it all up would send my anxiety (I have GAD and social phobia, with some OCD and phobia issues) back up and I worked too hard to bring it down.

That's just me, though. I've learned how I work, to some extent. YMMV.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You've really been resurrecting threads lately, catalina!
I don't think I could ever be a slave. I don't think I have the strength to give over everything to someone else. I still need to feel I have control over my own life.

This makes perfect sense to me , because I had therapy to learn how to deal with a controlling mother. She's not anymore, but oh boy, she was.

As a result, control is one of my - I don't know - issues? When I feel completely out of control of my life, that's when I used to eat and eat...
Even now, I have to remind myself that I'll really regret it if I start that up again.
Also, if I find I *have* to eat I eat low-fat popcorn. You can only eat so much of that before your stomach says stop.
But back to the topic.

Some people find it empowering to give over their whole life, and more power to them, really. They have my respect. But I find keeping some control very, very important. To give it all up would send my anxiety (I have GAD and social phobia, with some OCD and phobia issues) back up and I worked too hard to bring it down.

That's just me, though. I've learned how I work, to some extent. YMMV.

I can relate to where you are coming from. For me I do not think I could have committed to slavery earlier in my life, at least not with the same level of devotion and reality I have now. Part of that is because I had to live a little, face many challenges, know that no matter what I can and will survive. Once I reached that point of self knowledge, had moved some mighty big mountains alone, then I knew I could hand over control to another and trust them to validate that commitment with their own. It has brought challenges, many, but has also brought a peace and security I have never felt before.

Catalina

 

[timberwolf05]

pay off?

there's your problem.
another one looking for that big pay off...someone with their hand open again.

this is where "I" have difficulty explaining to the average joe or jane...SERVICE is about HER...not me.
i serve 150% effort...good days bad days...whether i am up to par or feel like shit...i still do my job.

pay off?

lets change this to...end means...or fulfillment...or reward...

"I" am satisfied by serving ...;
i know a well made bed
i know a cleaned floor
i know a cleaned kitchen
i know...........SERVICE.......

no s/m
no sex
no romance
nothing but TO SERVE w/o any direct reward....except knowing my work is well done.

pay off???/ , if you INSIST............THAT is it for ME....
24/7/365...i am "on" 18 hrs of the day...7 days a week...IF i get 6 hrs sleep i count myself lucky.


take care

 

[catalina_francisco]

pay off?

there's your problem.
another one looking for that big pay off...someone with their hand open again.

this is where "I" have difficulty explaining to the average joe or jane...SERVICE is about HER...not me.
i serve 150% effort...good days bad days...whether i am up to par or feel like shit...i still do my job.

pay off?

lets change this to...end means...or fulfillment...or reward...

"I" am satisfied by serving ...;
i know a well made bed
i know a cleaned floor
i know a cleaned kitchen
i know...........SERVICE.......

no s/m
no sex
no romance
nothing but TO SERVE w/o any direct reward....except knowing my work is well done.

pay off???/ , if you INSIST............THAT is it for ME....
24/7/365...i am "on" 18 hrs of the day...7 days a week...IF i get 6 hrs sleep i count myself lucky.


take care

Maybe that is your projected view timberwolf, but your posts also reflect an agressiveness and as you have implied before, dissatisfaction at times that you have not been treated well by your owners. You appear to be an extremely angry person which if it is what you want, need, or whatever, seems to be a strange reaction to the world and everyone around you....it often comes across as if you feel that proves you are superior to the rest of us. Your entitled to your opinion, but if I went around with an attitude 24/7, it would not be appreciated or tolerated.

Catalina

 

[timberwolf05]

Shadowsdreaml
===================
It seems to be a common misconception that owning a slave is like owning a dish rag or door mat. The slave does all the work and the Dominant lays back barking out orders. In reality it is an incredible amount of work via the responsibility of having a slave, keeping them content and safe as well as pushing limits continously for their own developement.
====================================================================================================================

if You have had...a lot of work..You got the wrong ones.
MY Mistress has very little to do..EXCEPT tell me what She wants on occasion./
esp. since "I" do ALL the housechores ALONE w/o ANY outside help from Her or anyone else..thank Ya very much!
no s/m
no sex
no romance
nothing
straight total 100% service only slave.
if You have-to..do anything..then Ya got the wrong boy...

take care

 

[serijules]

Okay, I admit I am trying to understand the difference. I cannot and won't consider myself a slave to Himself and He doesn't consider me as such.

I am really trying to understand the pay off for slaves in a relationship. As a sub/switch I know what my pay off is and I know what I want out of our relationship. I do not understand the need to be owned.

I would like to hear from some slaves about how they feel about this issue...

Thanks to all

The notion of needing a "payoff" as you put it is rather foreign to me. Perhaps that alone is the difference. You get out of a relationship what you put into it. That alone should be the payoff.

For me, being owned is far more rewarding than being submissive, because I know that I am putting everything I am into being the best slave I can be. My focus is so completely on pleasing another person and making another person happy that in the process, I make myself very happy as well. The reward for me is knowing that I am doing everything I can to be a positive, rewarding part of someone's life whom I respect and love very much. I get that same kind of devotion, attention and love in return. It takes an incredible amount of time, energy, commitment, and responsibilty to take on a slave and keep them in a healthy, happy enough state of mind that they can serve and give so completely. That kind of commitment and focus is not a result of an unhappy and unhealthy mind and heart. Combine those two focuses and you have an amazing relationship dynamic. One that I never could find or connect with when I identified only as being her submissive. So that is my "payoff", so to speak.

Slavery doesn't come out of the woodwork overnight. It's not something you wake up and decide that you are. Heck, I don't even believe that being a slave is a standalone title. Without Dawnie, I am not a slave. She made me what I am and gives me a reason to devote as much as I do, and my desire to serve and please her is what makes me the slave I am. I cannot imagine having that desire for anyone else or without someone to focus on that inspires me. If she were to release me, I would still identify to being submissive, but in order for me to embrace my slave abilities again, I would need to find someone who could draw them out and make them grow, just as she did.

Being a slave is just one of those things I don't think people will ever really truly understand unless they find it in themselves to be one. I hear parents say over and over and over that until you are a parent, you just can't really understand the love you feel for a child. I feel that way about slavery. You can respect it, you can admire it, but until you find it in yourself to embrace it and live it (if you wish to that is, some people have no desire to and that is perfectly alright), you can't really truly understand it. Again, it's much like the choice to be a parent...some people never find it in themeselves to want that, and they are no more or less happy for it than those that do. One way is no better than the other. Different choices with different rewards.

Me...I'm Dawnie's slave. I thrive on being able to focus my intensity and passion on serving and pleasing someone I care for and deeply admire. I feel incredibly secure and content knowing that she cares deeply enough for me that she wants to take on everything that I am and make it a large part of her life. I am a stronger, better, happier person for it. What's not to like?

Just wanted to comment also on one comment made in another reply....this is one thing about slavery that people just can't seem to understand and this honestly baffles me because it seems to be common sense to me. Do people realize that when we talk about slaves and slavery, we are not talking about slavery as known "back then"? I have zero interest in being a slave with no rights serving someone that cares very little for me. That is such a ridiculous notion. Yes, the idea stems from similar aspects and shares the same title, but what we talk about in BDSM and sexual relationships is a very different picture with a much more grounded reality. Saying there is no such thing as a real slave because it doesn't match history is like saying that spanking is abuse because it involves hitting. The historical and Webster definition of masochist, sadist, etc isn't identical to how we use the words in the lifestyle either, and that doesn't make them any less valid or "real" to those that relate to them.

 

[the captians wench]

...and weighing in with the unpopular opinion, it's cyyyyyyyym! Give her a big round of applause, folks!


Ahem.

I've been *sub*, many times to many Dom/mes.
I've been what my Dominant and i considered a *slave* only twice.

Neither is better.
Neither is worse.
They are different head states.

I have considered myself a slave to someone only in a couple (two) cases in my life. Both times, i gave away my right to say no to anything. I didn't have a safe word. My thoughts, feelings, opinions, wishes, desires, wants, needs, etc did not have to be taken into account for mundane and daily life issues, not to mention the larger issues that we delve into with intense, edgy, and recurring BDSM sexuality.

I cannot imagine feeling as deeply toward/about/for another person as i did in those two cases. I cannot imagine being able to allow that kind of trust to grow again. Today, now, i still feel it's hollow in the places that have held such emotions in the past.

Without those infinitely deep wells of love and trust and need and desire, one cannot be a slave - no matter what one calls oneself.

But when it was right, it felt as if there was another level of trust that had been breached, a last wall that had been scaled. I felt pared down to my most basic self as a slave to one who had the strength and skill and love and honor to own me, really own me. (Unfortunately, as most of us know, i chose badly in one of those cases - but one never touches the stars if one never dares the heights.)

Disclaimer: The above definition/information is valid only for me in my life and in my relationships. Doubtless, it is different for you. Such is ever the way of this branching, winding path we are all following, right?

Cym, I couldn't agree with you more. Honestly, I used to think to myself or even tell people "I'm not a sub, I'll never be a sub", but then I realized I already was, I just didn't call myself such. After I took on the title I then started saying "I'm not a slave, I'll never be a slave", but I know now that in my heart that's who I am. It is the most scary and most comforting thing I have ever felt in my life. To trust some one so much that what you think, feel, need, want, is thrown to the side, not important. You only care what master thinks, feels, wants, needs. But that's just me.

 

[shy slave]

The notion of needing a "payoff" as you put it is rather foreign to me. Perhaps that alone is the difference. You get out of a relationship what you put into it. That alone should be the payoff.

For me, being owned is far more rewarding than being submissive, because I know that I am putting everything I am into being the best slave I can be. My focus is so completely on pleasing another person and making another person happy that in the process, I make myself very happy as well. The reward for me is knowing that I am doing everything I can to be a positive, rewarding part of someone's life whom I respect and love very much. I get that same kind of devotion, attention and love in return. It takes an incredible amount of time, energy, commitment, and responsibilty to take on a slave and keep them in a healthy, happy enough state of mind that they can serve and give so completely. That kind of commitment and focus is not a result of an unhappy and unhealthy mind and heart. Combine those two focuses and you have an amazing relationship dynamic. One that I never could find or connect with when I identified only as being her submissive. So that is my "payoff", so to speak.

Slavery doesn't come out of the woodwork overnight. It's not something you wake up and decide that you are. Heck, I don't even believe that being a slave is a standalone title. Without Dawnie, I am not a slave. She made me what I am and gives me a reason to devote as much as I do, and my desire to serve and please her is what makes me the slave I am. I cannot imagine having that desire for anyone else or without someone to focus on that inspires me. If she were to release me, I would still identify to being submissive, but in order for me to embrace my slave abilities again, I would need to find someone who could draw them out and make them grow, just as she did.

Being a slave is just one of those things I don't think people will ever really truly understand unless they find it in themselves to be one. I hear parents say over and over and over that until you are a parent, you just can't really understand the love you feel for a child. I feel that way about slavery. You can respect it, you can admire it, but until you find it in yourself to embrace it and live it (if you wish to that is, some people have no desire to and that is perfectly alright), you can't really truly understand it. Again, it's much like the choice to be a parent...some people never find it in themeselves to want that, and they are no more or less happy for it than those that do. One way is no better than the other. Different choices with different rewards.

Me...I'm Dawnie's slave. I thrive on being able to focus my intensity and passion on serving and pleasing someone I care for and deeply admire. I feel incredibly secure and content knowing that she cares deeply enough for me that she wants to take on everything that I am and make it a large part of her life. I am a stronger, better, happier person for it. What's not to like?

Just wanted to comment also on one comment made in another reply....this is one thing about slavery that people just can't seem to understand and this honestly baffles me because it seems to be common sense to me. Do people realize that when we talk about slaves and slavery, we are not talking about slavery as known "back then"? I have zero interest in being a slave with no rights serving someone that cares very little for me. That is such a ridiculous notion. Yes, the idea stems from similar aspects and shares the same title, but what we talk about in BDSM and sexual relationships is a very different picture with a much more grounded reality. Saying there is no such thing as a real slave because it doesn't match history is like saying that spanking is abuse because it involves hitting. The historical and Webster definition of masochist, sadist, etc isn't identical to how we use the words in the lifestyle either, and that doesn't make them any less valid or "real" to those that relate to them.

Pay off is different for everyone.
I don't believe that anyone is so altruistic as to do something that does not have any pay off at all.
The level of pay off is irrelevent, when I do something in relation to him, the pay off is knowing he appreciates my efforts and tells me that.

serijules ~ for me, your post explains the concept of 'slave' with an understanding and eloquence that makes perfect sense to me.
Thank you

 

[serijules]

Pay off is different for everyone.
I don't believe that anyone is so altruistic as to do something that does not have any pay off at all.
The level of pay off is irrelevent, when I do something in relation to him, the pay off is knowing he appreciates my efforts and tells me that.

serijules ~ for me, your post explains the concept of 'slave' with an understanding and eloquence that makes perfect sense to me.
Thank you

I should apologize and explain a little better, I didn't mean to sound as if the notion of needing a payoff was a bad thing, in re-reading it does sound that way and I apologize for that. I meant to go back and expand on that and didn't.

What I was trying to say was that for a slave, "what do I get out of it" is usually not the kind of mentality that is present. I've been both submissive and slave to Dawnie, and as a submissive I often went into things thinking "when will I get play time, when will we get time alone, when will she notice this or that, when will she try out that toy on me or let me orgasm or...etc". Those were the payoffs I looked for as a submissive, in the sense that I thought just as much about what I wanted and needed as I paid attention to her needs and wants.

As a slave, I simply do not think like that. The concept now is more and more foreign to me, even though it really wasn't that long ago that I did think like that. I don't think my old way of thinking made me a bad submissive or "not as good" as I am now, but I do see the different clearly and I don't think without the move to being a slave, I would have ever really understood that difference. Now, my payoff is my role in and of itself. What I get out of it, and what I put into it.

Thank you for making me think more shy, and for your kind words.

 

[alice_underneath]

Serijules,

Like Shy Slave, I appreciated your post very much - though for a completely different reason. I have no experience as a submissive or a slave, and your careful, eloquent explanation helps me understand the concept of a being 'slave' in the BDSM sense.

Just wanted to comment also on one comment made in another reply....this is one thing about slavery that people just can't seem to understand and this honestly baffles me because it seems to be common sense to me. Do people realize that when we talk about slaves and slavery, we are not talking about slavery as known "back then"?

The answer to this question is obviously, in many cases, no.

The words 'slavery' and 'slave' represent (to most mainstream people) the heinous abuses of the past (e.g., the Old South in America) and, unfortunately, the present (e.g., young girls kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery).

Because I have spent time reading about BDSM and paying attention to people like Catalina or Shy on this Board, I understand that the concept of BDSM slavery, as you said, "is a very different picture". But this understanding is new for me, and it did not develop overnight.

The historical and Webster definition of masochist, sadist, etc isn't identical to how we use the words in the lifestyle either, and that doesn't make them any less valid or "real" to those that relate to them.

Of course, this statement is true.

Unfortunately, the language of BDSM is a hindrance in terms of gaining acceptance for this lifestyle as legitimate - even among the more tolerant and non-judgmental members of mainstream society.

That is to say, a heterosexual vanilla guy who supports gay marriage, encourages equal rights and respect for transsexuals/bisexuals/ transvestites/etc., is very likely to balk when he hears terms like "slave" and "sadist". The negative connotation to these words is so strong, and the association with the absence of mutual consent is so tight, that he will have a very hard time accepting BDSM as a legitimate form of sexual behavior.

If one explains to him the BDSM form of these concepts, he may come to understand that the Master/slave dynamic is every bit as legitimate and valid as whatever is going on in his own bedroom. But the fact that a lengthy explanation is required makes the road to acceptance more arduous.

Of course, a reaction along the lines of - Who the heck cares if the mainstream world understands & accepts us? - would be perfectly understandable. On the other hand, in the US at least, there are very serious legal & other consequences to the absence of acceptance for BDSM practices.

Thanks again, Serijules, for your thought-provoking post on the concept of being a 'slave' in the BDSM sense.

Alice

 

[serijules]

Your comments bring up some excellent points Alice, and good food for thought. However, I was speaking more so of people that make comments as such on this board...people that I know have exposure to the "BDSM definitions" of those terms. For instance, if someone comes on here and says they are so-and-so's puppy or ponygirl, I am not going to think they really think they are a real puppy dog or pony. It's not really an area of BDSM that I have much knowledge or experience in, but even way back when I first started out exploring, I understood that just because these people are not actual real canines, they are no less the "puppy" they are relating to. It's about respecting what you may not understand rather than judging just because of that lack of understanding. I tend to expect that from people a bit too much, and I'll admit that.

I completely understand mainstream and non-BDSM people not understanding or considering "our" views. If a vanilla were to make a comment like that, I would not react with as much confusion nor be as irked as I am when someone involved in the lifestyle makes such comments. There are articulate, intelligent, funny, outgoing, slaves that post on this forum quite often and usually with much openness and honesty and information about their relationships and roles; to read those people and the passion they display for their roles and then continue on to say that there is no such thing as a slave is as I said, baffling to me. It comes across quite clear that spanking or other forms of handing out pain are not considered abusive amoungst us lifestylers. I feel the same basic understanding of terms like slave, puppies, ponies, ageplayers, etc, should come about that easily as well, even to those that don't really have much knowledge or exposure to said roles.

When people are constantly exposed to a modified definition of something and interact with people that personify that, yet still stubbornly hold on to whatever their previous knowledge and understanding was...that is baffling to me.

What's that saying...can't see the forrest for the trees? That's kind of what I'm getting at here

 

[catalina_francisco]

Revisit.....?