Transgender woman killed in Colorado

[none2_none2]

I am opposed to the hate crimes laws because I think they make people a protected group or special. Murder is murder and the motive should have bearing, but that should be up to the judge and jury. Killing a woman for her purse is no less disgusting than killing her because she is a lesbian.

I kind of understand your issue with hate crimes. I think the reason that they make such laws is simply to re-enforce that it is NOT ok to kill someone because they are from a group that society as a whole may dislike.

For the most part I think over the years I have done a good job of passing as straight. You'd be surprised at some of the comments people make about certain groups when they think no one from that group is in their midst. For instance, I have heard comments kind of along the line of that if a gay guy dies somewhat earlier in life than a straight man, then it is not surprising. Diseased lifestyles lead to an early death. I wouldn't want such a person on a jury involving a GLBT victim.

Sure if I kill someone for their purse or because they are lesbian, I am equally guilty and deserve the same punishment -- in theory. However, I don't trust most people to feel the same and make the same sentence to the criminal. In many people's minds, a lady with a purse would be an innocent victim where as the lesbian was asking for trouble due to to her deviant lifestyle. From that stand point, I don't have a problem with hate crimes to make sure juries don't get lenient when the victim is considered less than desirable.

For instance, think of the Harvey Milk killing when a disgruntled formerly elected city councilman (Dan White, I think) in San Fran killed the gay city commission member, Harvey Milk, and the mayor. He got off with the Hostess Twinkly defense where supposedly the large levels of sugar had some role in why he killed them? If he had killed a straight, married person with a few kids, do you think the Hostess Twinky defense would have worked? He wasn't some rich millionaire that bought the best fleet of attorneys' that money could by. I feel that he simply had people that secretly thought such a nice young man shouldn't be punished for some deviant's and a deviant supporter's (mayor's) death.

 

[PhoebeGB]

Too many men are violent towards the transgendered PERIOD, let alone in situations where their 'manhood' feels threatened. Anybody who reacts in this way towards somebody who is different is clearly Psychotic. We Transsexuals risk harm just by being there sometimes. It's a sad, scarey world.

 

[Chemscout]

I respect Etoile's writing very much. She tends to formulate well thought-out arguments and ideas and expresses herself beautifully. I must, however, strongly disagree with her on the statement that she made that it's never the victim's fault. It's often the victim's fault.

This is completely wrong, in my opinion. Any kind of sex crime requires two things: desire and opportunity. The victim, in most cases, furnishes the opportunity. Whether by failing to adequately safeguard one's own safety, disregard for common sense or (in this case) lying about your gender. In fact, it's not a stretch to describe the dead person as a sexual predator. He (yes, HE) clearly preyed upon the person who killed him and lied to further these deviant sexual fantasies of being a woman.

Perhaps if HE had been honest with the man he deceived, he would still be alive today. What happened to taking responsibility for one's actions and accepting their repercussions? Sure, by that rationale, someone is dead and his killer now has to face the judicial system. Let's hope he does it with integrity.

In my opinion, it's his (the "victim's") own fault.


Chemscout

 

[Etoile]

I respect Etoile's writing very much. She tends to formulate well thought-out arguments and ideas and expresses herself beautifully. I must, however, strongly disagree with her on the statement that she made that it's never the victim's fault. It's often the victim's fault.

This is completely wrong, in my opinion. Any kind of sex crime requires two things: desire and opportunity. The victim, in most cases, furnishes the opportunity. Whether by failing to adequately safeguard one's own safety, disregard for common sense or (in this case) lying about your gender. In fact, it's not a stretch to describe the dead person as a sexual predator. He (yes, HE) clearly preyed upon the person who killed him and lied to further these deviant sexual fantasies of being a woman.

Perhaps if HE had been honest with the man he deceived, he would still be alive today. What happened to taking responsibility for one's actions and accepting their repercussions? Sure, by that rationale, someone is dead and his killer now has to face the judicial system. Let's hope he does it with integrity.

In my opinion, it's his (the "victim's") own fault.


Chemscout

Thank you for the compliment, it is appreciated. And well-put disagreement is also appreciated, discussion is a good thing!

I have a couple of questions for you.

1) If a woman wears a short skirt, say several inches above the knee, while out on a date, and she is raped while walking home, is that her fault?

2) Why do you refer to the victim as "he" - do you not believe people can be transgender?

 

[mysterydrink]

Shywong, I don't think you're blaming her. These are two completely separate issues.

The transsexual woman, it could be argued (and naturally, argued against), made what we might call a faux pas. A minor, forgiveable offense. I'm a straight guy, and though I could concievably go somewhere with a trans lady (honestly, it would depend on how "passable" she was - otherwise, I don't think a penis would matter, and could even be fun), I would absolutely be upset if I found out the hard way. But I'd leave it at that; upset. Heck, I might freak out, though I like to think I'd be pretty cool about it, and on the other hand, heckdangshoot, I might even get a drink with her sometime and talk about it. But in my mind, it's quite inconsiderate not to share that tidbit pre-stripping.

Note the use of the word inconsiderate. Would you use inconsiderate to describe murder? No, that would be a bit of an understatement.

Murder is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SPORT than inconsideration, and honestly, those of you refusing to see that our friend, coy penis, is saying so, are the irrational ones (though shywong, you might've done well not to use the word "fault." I agree with you that she made an error, but your word choice was too heavy).

Hate crimes are obviously a very sensitive subject, so let me compare it to some less controversial subjects. Say somebody, like myself, jaywalks. I do so as safely as I can, but I still cross the street when I don't have the right-of-way, and potentially set myself up to annoy a driver who has to yield the right-of-way and slow down because I didn't see them. Now say some driver with, to put it mildly, anger management issues is furious that I would do so, guns the engine and mows me down. I'm dead, and if I hadn't jaywalked I would still be alive. But it would be a gross understatement to say that the punishment didn't fit the crime here. A fucking gross one.

Two independant people acting independantly. Two separate issues. There are countless comparable scenarios. Someone tips poorly so their waiter kicks their ass in the parking lot. Someone is daydreaming while walking down the street, bumps into the wrong person who shoves them into oncoming traffic. Yada yada yada. On one hand, you have the victim. If the victim had been a little more considerate or attentive or conscientious, the crisis may have been averted. That doesn't mean that the aggressor isn't in the wrong, clcoog, Mr. or Ms. repeat-straw-man-arguments-slowly-to-feel-superior. It doesn't mean the victim deserved to be assaulted. Two. Fucking. Separate. Issues.

 

[none2_none2]

I respect Etoile's writing very much. She tends to formulate well thought-out arguments and ideas and expresses herself beautifully. I must, however, strongly disagree with her on the statement that she made that it's never the victim's fault. It's often the victim's fault.

This is completely wrong, in my opinion. Any kind of sex crime requires two things: desire and opportunity. The victim, in most cases, furnishes the opportunity. Whether by failing to adequately safeguard one's own safety, disregard for common sense or (in this case) lying about your gender. In fact, it's not a stretch to describe the dead person as a sexual predator. He (yes, HE) clearly preyed upon the person who killed him and lied to further these deviant sexual fantasies of being a woman.

Perhaps if HE had been honest with the man he deceived, he would still be alive today. What happened to taking responsibility for one's actions and accepting their repercussions? Sure, by that rationale, someone is dead and his killer now has to face the judicial system. Let's hope he does it with integrity.

In my opinion, it's his (the "victim's") own fault.


Chemscout

I'm sorry, but for the life of me, I don't understand the logic of your comments. Sure some of us, including myself, have a hard time understanding the whole transgendered world. From my stand point, they place WAY to much emphasis on gender stereotypes. Most natural born females that I know run the gamut of thought, actions, etc, the same as for men running the gamut. Nevertheless, no matter how much difficulty I have with what I perceived as their exaggerated concept of gender that doesn't give me or anybody else the right to kill one of them under ANY circumstances.

Like mysterydrink, I'll give a different topic as a real example.

I personally have a birth defect most likely due to a prenatal car accident. I don't want anybody's pity, so I don't go putting my defect on display or tell everybody I meet about it. I wear my hair long enough to cover it up. If I have sex with someone and don't talk about my birth defect before we have sex, does that make me a sexual predator? My defect isn't contagious, and it isn't genetic, so if I was fertile & with a woman she isn't going to have "monster" babies from having sex with me. If for some reason a sexual partner finds out that I have a birth defect, does that mean I have given him the opportunity and right to kill me? How would my birth defect in anyway hurt someone I'm having sex with? Any issues they have with it are solely in their head.

 

[Shywong]

Shywong, you might've done well not to use the word "fault." I agree with you that she made an error, but your word choice was too heavy.

Yeah seriously, even though I used the word partially before it it still brought forth the wrath of hypocrites like Etoile and her lackeys and morons like clcoog who just want to beat a dead horse. I'm not going to repeat myself again but there are definitely double standards on this forum.

 

[none2_none2]

Yeah seriously, even though I used the word partially before it it still brought forth the wrath of hypocrites like Etoile and her lackeys and morons like clcoog who just want to beat a dead horse. I'm not going to repeat myself again but there are definitely double standards on this forum.

There is no double standard. You just don't get it. People do stupid things, make stupid choices, but that doesn't mean that if someone doesn't like it and kills them they are only PARTIALLY responsible.

From your angry subsequent posts, it is obviously that you have a problem with GLBT people. Thus, I'll give a straight example that doesn't involve GLBT issues:

If you wife/girlfriend pisses you off, and you hit her or beat her up. Is she partially responsible because had she not pissed you off you wouldn't have struck her? Wold you tell the law enforcement officer or the judge, "She made me do it?", and hope to get off easy because of that statement?

 

[Shywong]

From your angry subsequent posts, it is obviously that you have a problem with GLBT people.

Not at all, if I had anything against GLBT I wouldn't be here. I have a problem with people taking one thing out of a paragraph and refuting it profusely, as if nothing else I said mattered. Because I used the F word [Fault], my entire post was bad, unlike the guy above. I also don't like mods who go around provoking new members by treating them like trolls.

If you wife/girlfriend pisses you off, and you hit her or beat her up. Is she partially responsible because had she not pissed you off you wouldn't have struck her? Wold you tell the law enforcement officer or the judge, "She made me do it?", and hope to get off easy because of that statement?

That's not a good example because I wouldn't hit a woman. If she pissed me off by say, going way over the limit on my credit card then I would retaliate by never letting her use it again and cutting off any luxuries she has at my expense. My way of punishment means discipline is better than violence. Anyway to answer your question, no. That man is guilty, I never said he had a good enough reason to do what he did, and he deserves no less than life in prison. Despite me saying this, I bet someone will ignore it and still keep beating that same old dead horse. Everyone loves to ride a bandwagon.
*points at clcoog*

And there is a double standard here, let me point it out for you.

What I said:
The victim is also partially at fault for not telling him the truth to begin with. Fooling someone about your gender is dangerous and deadly with the wrong person.

Etoile's Response:
No, no, no. It is NOT the victim's fault at ALL. It is NEVER the victim's fault. [Followed by repeatadly saying I'm blaming the victim.]


What Chemscout said:
It's not a stretch to describe the dead person as a sexual predator. He (yes, HE) clearly preyed upon the person who killed him and lied to further these deviant sexual fantasies of being a woman. Perhaps if HE had been honest with the man he deceived, he would still be alive today.

In my opinion, it's his (the "victim's") own fault.

Etoile's response:
Thank you for the compliment, it is appreciated. And well-put disagreement is also appreciated, discussion is a good thing!

Do you see how she just shot herself in the foot? If you look back at how I worded my posts compared to how he worded his you'll notice the irony of how she responded. He was more or less saying the same thing I said but much more aggressively. He came right out and said it was the victims fault, but yet it's a good, well-put disagreement because he kissed her ass first. And you guys say I'm blaming the victim? What bullshit, so much for the sake of discussion. That's not only hypocritical it's stupid. Pardon me for not tossing anyone's salad upon my entrance so someone would get my point. According to her that makes me an asshole. I even referred to the victim as a she out of respect. I always refer to TSG people what they desire to be as a sign of respect, but once again I'm still an asshole. As a certain someone said 'GLBT people don't need people to be nice to us.' No but it sure does help you gain favors. Maybe I should try it next time just to see what happens. I usually don't participate in people patting each other on the ass and saying good job, but just this once I'll do it for her.

And BTW, this made me LOL.

I respect Etoile's writing very much. She tends to formulate well thought-out arguments and ideas and expresses herself beautifully.

All she did was quote me several times, accusing me of blaming the victim like a broken record. Yes, that is indeed beautiful.

 

[none2_none2]

Not at all, if I had anything against GLBT I wouldn't be here. I have a problem with people taking one thing out of a paragraph and refuting it profusely, as if nothing else I said mattered. Because I used the F word [Fault], my entire post was bad, unlike the guy above. I also don't like mods who go around provoking new members by treating them like trolls.


You should come up with a better example because I wouldn't hit a woman. If she pissed me off by say, going way over the limit on my credit card then I would retaliate by never letting her use it again and cutting off any luxuries she has at my expense. And there is a double standard here, let me point it for you.

Let me correct myself. I SHOULD have put the example in "third person". I didn't mean YOU personally as that is almost as bad as "Do you still beat your wife?" which is loaded either way you answer. Unfortunately, there is no "editorial you" (second person), only an editorial "we" (third). So please replace "you" with "some guy".

Do you see how she just shot herself in the foot? Do you see how he was basically saying the same thing I said but much more aggressively. He came right out and said it was the victims fault, but yet it's a good, well-put disagreement because he kissed her ass first. And you guys say I'm blaming the victim? What bullshit, so much for the sake of discussion. That's not only hypocritical it's stupid. Pardon me for not tossing anyone's salad upon my entrance, according to her that makes me an asshole. I even referred to the victim as a she out of respect. I always refer to TSG people what they desire to be as a sign of respect, but once again I'm still an asshole. As a certain someone said 'GLBT people don't need people to be nice to us.' No but it sure does help you gain favors. Maybe I should try it next time just to see what happens.

Ok, I see your point on Etoile's response to you vs ChemScout. Hopefully, if the flowery intro to disarm disagreement had been to flatter me instead of Etoile, I would have seen past it. I wouldn't fault Etoile for that. Sometimes a smile does catch you off guard. He did write the same thing, but softer. Thus she responded softer. In hindsight, she probably should not have written in CAPS to you since you were new and thus saw it as a strong attack, but nobody is perfect. Do realize that Etoile speaks for herself and we aren't all lackeys that respond in step. Every GLBT person is different. If you can just forget the anger at Etoile for a moment and look at many of her posts over the years, you will see that many are indeed some of the best posts that this board has.

As to ChemScout, you should also see that I called him on his logic.

I strongly disagree with both his way of stating it as well as yours. I'm not some Gay Rights activist with an agenda, I just know that too many bad people get off lightly because they try to put the blame on the victim when the victim is undesirable in the minds of many. Sure there are people who do things to really piss us off. Sure I could see examples where I could theoretically loose it. If I saw someone in the act of clearly killing someone else -- especially someone I loved being killed, in anger I might strike back at the killer with deadly force even if it doesn't bring back the person who was just killed.

However, this transgendered person wasn't killing anybody in this case -- only deceiving...

If news came out that someone killed a sex partner because they found out that the victim had hidden some black African ancestry (race), or Jewish ancestry (religion), or a defect (disabled) no one would hesitate to label the killer a bigot. However, on the subject of gender we are supposed to understand that the deception is so horrendous that such a possible fatal reaction should be anticipated by the victim. What if the killer was a gay man, killing a woman who tried to pass as a man just to see if she could turn a gay man straight? Do you think society would pity the gay man for having been grossly deceived and say he was only partially to blame for the woman's death?

 

[Shywong]

I have no more anger. In fact the next time she post I intend to propose to her just to show there are no hard feelings.

 

[Chemscout]

Etoile,

I realize that I perhaps didn't elaborate on what I meant when I made my statement, so your question allows me to do so. To answer your question, no, I don't think a woman deserves to be raped because she wears a short skirt. Not at all. She certainly has the right to wear whatever she chooses. What I meant was that should said woman walk home down a dark alley or deserted street and be raped as a result, then she should certainly be assigned some responsibility for that. She has failed to guard her own body and look to her own safety, which can often carry consequences. It would be no different if I were to do the same and be raped as a man. I'd certainly blame myself for not being more aware of my surroundings and putting myself in danger. We live in an imperfect world, and we cannot expect others to keep us safe.
What I meant is that it's often (partially) the victim's fault with sexual assault because so many people (male and female) completely choose to ignore basic rules of safety and are hurt as a result.

Does that more clearly explain my position?

With regard to your second question...that's more difficult. To be honest, I frequently find myself with very conflicting views on the matter of TS/TG issues. That's probably not terribly uncommon, I imagine, but I did happen to read this article after a particularly bad day at work, so I was perhaps more forceful that I might normally have been with my use of pronouns. I certainly believe that I person can be sexually reassigned, but to be totally frank, I'm not sure that it's much different fundamentally than welding wings to the side of a nice car and calling it a plane. This is not to throw stones or in any way be demeaning, so please don't take it as such. I'm simply saying that it's a fine point that I have yet to work out in my own mind.

Hope you have a great weekend, Etoile.

CS



1) If a woman wears a short skirt, say several inches above the knee, while out on a date, and she is raped while walking home, is that her fault?

2) Why do you refer to the victim as "he" - do you not believe people can be transgender?

 

[clock1]

The victim is never at fault. Each individual is responsible for his/her own behavior. Rational, even semi rational people control their behaviors. Some people with certain mental disorders have a difficult time controling their behaviors, they have a faulty impulse switch. Prisons are largely populated by peolple such as this.

In the specific case of this transgender murder the victim behaved in a way consistant with her beliefs. I wonder if the leaving the male alone in her apartment (after spending the night in seperate beds) was not in hope of "being discovered" and allowing the (snoopy) male time to adjust, to allow the shock to wear off. Upon her return, regardless of her intentions the scene went badly and she was murdered. No fault of her own, perhaps she made a mistake in judgement regarding trust, but it was not her fault.

This brings us to the short skirt question. A woman may wear as much, or as little as she chooses. There are in fact few actual rapists causually walking around. They are out there however, and their crime has little to do with sex, and a great deal to do with control. A rapist, should a girl come across one in a situation that favor the rapist is as likely to be raped in a burlap sack as a short skirt. Again, no fault ever to the victim.

Now, let's leave sexual behaviors and look at another victim. A sober woman is driving through a part of town where there are a number of bars and clubs. It is 2:08 AM. The bars all closed at 2:00. A number of intoxicated people went to their cars, and began driving along the same road where this woman, and other sober people, are driving.

Sure enough, a drunk crosses the centerline striking the woman's car and kills her. Is it her fault? Would anyone blame her? Of course not. The blame lies totally on the person who chose to drive drunk. Could the woman chosen a different route? Would a careful assessment of the situation have caused her to make different choices that night? Both are possibilities, does the fact that she did not place any blame on her, again, not at all.

Each of us make dozens of choices every day. Some are made with little thought, others after a careful cost/benefit analysis. Do any of these choices put any of us at fault when the chosen negative behavior of another makes us a victim? No, Never.

We can be smart, we can be careful, but shy of total isolation we can never be completely safe from the chosen behaviors of others. Their fault, not ours.

 

[PhoebeGB]

...I'm not sure that it's much different fundamentally than welding wings to the side of a nice car and calling it a plane.

But what if you were born with all of the flight controls of a plane, but find yourself stuck in the shell of a car?

What if all of your dreams were of flying?

If you have difficulty with that analogy, try thinking of it as correcting a BIG birth defect through surgery...

 

[none2_none2]

But what if you were born with all of the flight controls of a plane, but find yourself stuck in the shell of a car?

What if all of your dreams were of flying?

If you have difficulty with that analogy, try thinking of it as correcting a BIG birth defect through surgery...

I'm sorry, but as someone who has a birth defect. I think it is an unfair analogy. In my case, I only have one good ear most likely because of a car accident my mother went through before I was born. Sure I would love to have two normal ears, but I don't and never will. I don't want anybody's pity, so I wear my hair long enough to cover it up. I have hearing in the bad ear, just no external ear or ear canal. Sure I wish I had two good ears. Cosmetically, I could then have a shorter hair style which would have caused me a lot less grief when I was younger given the gender bias in human cultures. It would also mean I could wear any glasses I choose. Physically, it would be great to be able to home onto the direction of sound using the stereo affect of having two ears -- instead of having to turn around and look for where the sound may be coming from. I never let my difference stop me from doing what I wanted to do. I was a music major for several years in college and still do a lot with music. Perhaps I don't hear quite as well as a stereophonic person, but I loved music so I didn't let my differences keep me away. In some ways it helped because when I sang I tended to over enunciate each syllable because I knew what it was like to try to listen to someone singing who didn't do so.

I don't obsess about my defect, but I am always aware if it as it is part of my being. I don't mix up right and left because I know exactly that my right side is where the defect is. It bothered me more when I was younger. For the most part, the whole desire to change diminished significantly just a few years ago. My maternal grandmother died 3 months short of 100 back in Nov of 2003. Unfortunately, her last few years were in a nursing home because my mother didn't seem to be up to the task, and between my job and stuff, I wouldn't have been able to take care of her. Her mind would sometimes have problems focusing those last few years. A few times I was afraid she would mix up who I was. All I had to do was put her hands to my ears, and she would then remember who I was. I spent years in surgeries and painful recoveries to try to construct what best they could for an ear. Yet, I will always be thankful for having this defect because it meant the grandmother who raised me could remember just exactly who I was right up until the end.

If someone wants to have a re-assignment surgery, that is someone's right. However, I think the whole gender thing is way over blown. I remember how much I was taunted as a kid because my hair was too long to cover up the birth defect. One supposed friend went as far as to tell me that other kids would like me if I just cut my hair short like the other boys. I told him about my ear, and he said a real friend wouldn't fault me for a birth defect. Then I told him a real friend wouldn't fault me for the length of my hair. (That ended the discussion.) There are people with male body parts who run the gamut from super macho to effeminate just as the same runs for people with female body parts who run the gamut. Yes I'm happy to be a male as I like the strength, the height. I'm glad that I'm not reminded of my connection to nature every month with periods. However, I know that gender evolved for reproduction purposes. As an infertile male, it bothers me more that I'm infertile than as to what gender I am.

Unfortunately, there are way too many people (gay, str8, bi, trans, etc) who have turned gender into a religion. Do not tell me I have a male soul, unless you also want to tell me I have a caucasian soul, a tall soul, a one-eared soul, a top soul, a gay soul, etc. My soul is simply mine with ALL the facets that make me unique from someone else. It has as much gender associated with it as it does race or height, or however else one wants to dice the human species into subdivisions. Do not tell me that my gender is based on how I cross my legs, the thickness of my watch band, how I carry school books, the length of the hair on my head, or even the size of my adam's apple. I've been through all that BS when I was young and easily hurt. I simply will challenge anybody's sexist dogma on a soul's gender (or for that matter orientation) because I know it is BS -- from all the years growing up that I had to deal with those lies. My soul isn't on Mars nor Venus. It is on EARTH, and it is inside ME -- not my penis or where I choose to put my penis.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect as I am affected by the same sexist world we live in. I would love to say I could fall in love with an effeminate person -- male or female. I wish I could say my love interest wasn't limited to masculine creatures
-- mainly male as I do love body hair which testosterone can enhance if your racial/family background tends to be hairy. So yes, I do have my gender preferences, but in my heart I know that real love should transcend the physical trappings we have in this life.

 

[PhoebeGB]

Considering how many transgendered people commit suicide every year because they can't face living another day in a life they didn't choose, it's not a fad or a fancy that they desire with all their heart to have reassignment surgery.

Getting back to the main topic (way back, before the flame wars), is it 100% certain the killer didn't know his victim was transgendered before he murdered her? It shouldn't be a defense in the first place, but in this intolerant climate it's so easy to say "Oops, I didn't know, and when I found out I saw a red haze and killed her." and get off with a light sentence. Regretably it's happened before.

And he stole HER car and drove off in it! Gives me the creeps...

 

[Jagged]

Sure if I kill someone for their purse or because they are lesbian, I am equally guilty and deserve the same punishment -- in theory. However, I don't trust most people to feel the same and make the same sentence to the criminal. In many people's minds, a lady with a purse would be an innocent victim where as the lesbian was asking for trouble due to to her deviant lifestyle. From that stand point, I don't have a problem with hate crimes to make sure juries don't get lenient when the victim is considered less than desirable.

For instance, think of the Harvey Milk killing when a disgruntled formerly elected city councilman (Dan White, I think) in San Fran killed the gay city commission member, Harvey Milk, and the mayor. He got off with the Hostess Twinkly defense where supposedly the large levels of sugar had some role in why he killed them? If he had killed a straight, married person with a few kids, do you think the Hostess Twinky defense would have worked? He wasn't some rich millionaire that bought the best fleet of attorneys' that money could by. I feel that he simply had people that secretly thought such a nice young man shouldn't be punished for some deviant's and a deviant supporter's (mayor's) death.[/QUOTE]


That is where I have the issue. We're at the hearts and mind stage. You have to expect people will do what they're supposed to under the law. Matthew Shepard got justice without the hate crimes statue in place. Why because the men who did it were guilty. Texas Dennis Bird was dragged to his death and the local police caught the men involved within days and they were put on trial. They're ring leader got the death penalty and even the one who made a deal got life. You can't always expect people to do the right thing, but you have to give them that option. Wrong is wrong no matter who you are.

 

[none2_none2]

Considering how many transgendered people commit suicide every year because they can't face living another day in a life they didn't choose, it's not a fad or a fancy that they desire with all their heart to have reassignment surgery.

I never said it was a fad or a fancy. Do realize that there is a big difference between a birth defect and sexual re-assignment. My defective ear does not function as any ear is designed to function. Where as a transexual's sex organs normally function perfectly fine. That individual simply doesn't want them.

Also realize that people normally commit suicide because they are depressed. Depression alone can be treated. Sure there were times that I was depressed it could be over my ear, it could be over my infertility, it could be over my gayness, or a host of other things. For me over time I accepted myself with all my flaws and limitations. Sure if I dwell on something sad, depression can come back. However, it serves no purpose to pine over what I cannot change, so I pretty much have it under control.

I would say the transsexual condition is more akin to the person who wants a voluntary amputation. No on knows WHY such a person wants a body part removed, but they do not consider the particular part of their body to be part of them. Whether it is a finger, hand, arm, leg, or sex organs, it is kind of the same thing. I don't understand it, but if counseling cannot give them relief, then at least maybe the surgeon's scalpel can. In the case of sexual reassignment we all realize that it is only modern technology that allows it to happen. Christine Jorgensen (spelling), the Korean war vet, I believe is the first successful transsexual reassignment though I think I read that there were some attempts in the 1930's. Do realize that there are plenty of straight people who would love gays and lesbians to have sex changes. In their mind sex is about nuts & bolts, and they cannot fathom two nuts or two bolts screwing. There have been some instances of that happening in Iran... Luckily in the western world, we may not have full rights, but most of us aren't pressured to go under the knife to be acceptable to society.

No one is trying to take away your right to modify your body. Your body is yours. Likewise, the transgendered person who was killed, was not responsible for her death -- regardless of whether she withheld her current gender configuration. Deception may have been a bad choice, but if it was a deadly choice, it is fully on the shoulders of the murderer.

 

[PhoebeGB]

I'll think you'll find Roberta Cowell was the first successful MTF transsexual, by about 2 years, and her surgery was much more complete than Ms. Jorgenson's who had no sexual function whatever. If you have questions about what it IS to be transsexual you could take it to the 'Transsexual Women 101' thread elsewhere in this forum. Otherwise it distracts from the topic of this thread, and fills it up with "Killing is wrong... but I don't understand/like/get off on transsexuals... blah, blah, blah" posts.

 

[John Doe]

Okay, yeah, I'm completely wrong. Just ignore everything else I said why don't you? I'm wrong for thinking she should have told him one of the most important details about her gender before engaging in sex. It's completely okay to lure someone into a bedroom believing you're something you're not. It's one thing for a guy to lie about his penis size, its another for a woman to lie about having a vagina. You know, because that's what most straight guys want. I never said she should have told the truth if she didn't want to die or it was all her fault. I was saying it would have been wise to let the stupid homophobic sociopath know what he was getting before ever meeting in person. Had she done that this could have been prevented. He should have asked, she should have told. They both gambled and loss, GG. God forbid people to use common sense these days.

That's the best I can explain what I was trying to say. Let me reiterate one more time, I am not blaming the victim. So it would be nice if people stop trying to make me look like the bad guy for suggesting people don't lie when getting intimate.

Yes, reasoning with an irrational person always works.

(I don't need to use the sarcasm emoticon here, do I?)

 

[Shywong]

Yes, reasoning with an irrational person always works.

(I don't need to use the sarcasm emoticon here, do I?)

Despite me saying this, I bet someone will ignore it and still keep beating that same old dead horse. Everyone loves to ride a bandwagon.

Thanks for proving my point and contributing to the subject. I just love people who can't think for themselves and troll bump old threads.

And I don't need a sarcasm emote either. This kind of spam must be how you have a 37k post count.

 

[Etoile]

Picking on people's post counts is so...wait, no, that was never a good comeback.

NEXT!

 

[Shywong]

NEXT!

Will you marry me?

 

[Wolfman1982]

Will you marry me?

You got the Wong (lol sorry, I know bad joke) house, she is already taken.

 

[PhoebeGB]

Guess not many folks are interested in the topic of this thread, and that is SO sad