Tzara Untangled: The Interview

[Angeline]

Which says they are not well constructed poems.

Not that a poem should be obvious about what it's about. But it should be something that a reader should be able to discern the meaning of.

And, lest you think this a negative reaction, Ange, I like you saying this. Love you saying this.

The point of commentary is to guide the writer, and I need a lot of guiding.

As do we all.

There's a lot more in your post to comment on. Which I will, probably tomorrow.

We could argue about how much of a poet's intent a reader can reasonably be expected to tease out of a poem. But I understand your reaction and don't take it at all as negative (even if you hadn't reassured me). Any feedback that leads to growth and understanding for me as a poet is a very good thing.

 

[butters]

such interesting reading, this thread.

i'll be back sunday to post, after this initial rush. tzara must feel like a juggler!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Your Thread of forms' is the first place I head to when I've forgotten how, so for that I thank you

 

[Tzara]

And for the record, I was always astonished that the Minervous poems feel so female to me. Still. Even the ones like Wow and Flutter, where a woman is describing a man and her reaction to him, ring true.

I appreciate what you and Tess said about that, as it means the persona is authentic, at least some of the time. It's like telling a fiction writer that their characters are real. It's what one works toward.

And I think all this says a lot about your control as a writer, which leads me to your relationship with form poetry. I see you wrote bad haiku at one point (I still do--or would if I did again), but from whence came the interest in traditional forms? Did that blossom here at Lit or before then? What does writing in those forms do for you and how does it affect the way you write overall? Do you set rules or create methods for your so-called "free verse"? Do you just write and let it flow out and then apply a method as you edit?

I didn't write form before Lit; hardly wrote poetry before Lit. I may have written a sonnet or something in high school.

Rather than answer your questions directly, let me talk a bit about why I think form writing is important, even for non-formalists.

1. Form is not only historically important to poetry. It obviously is historically important--poets from Shakespeare to Kim Addonizio have written sonnets, Roethke and Thomas famous villanelles, Bishop and Pound famous sestinas, etc.
   
   One of the arguments anti-formalists seem to want to make is that "no one writes that way anymore." That is, no contemporary poets are interested in writing in form.
   
   When counter-examples are offered (say, the brilliant A.E. Stallings, or the former head of the NEA, Dana Gioia), the response might be that they are not respresentative of contemporary practice. That they are throw-backs, curiosities.
   
   Perhaps to write more or less exclusively in form they may be. But I'm always surprised to encounter poets known for free verse who occasionally might try a sonnet or a villanelle. The aforementioned Ms. Addonizio, for example. Beth Gylys has written (erotic) villanelles and sestinas. Plummy old Robert Bly even makes up forms--the ramage, the "American Ghazal."
   
   Even prosaic and popular Billy Collins made up a form--the paradelle.
   
   Now, he made it up as a joke, but it has actually produced some pretty interesting poetry in the hands of other poets.
   .
2. Form requires the poet pay attention to some of the most basic elements of poetry. Rhyme, often, of course, and its siblings slant rhyme, near rhyme, off rhyme, sight rhyme, and so on. But I think more importantly it helps train the poet's ear to meter and rhythm.
   
   One of the things about the Poetry Survivor contest of a few years ago was how many poets did not/do not hear the stress patterns of speech. The biggest confusion poets seemed to have about trying to write metered verse is that they could not hear the meter.
   
   Now 1201 in his ranting about scansion is correct in saying that English does not map onto a binary stress pattern of syllables either being stressed or non-stressed, but it does map onto some kind of stress pattern, even if that is heard slightly differently by different readers. I think one of the great benefits of writing (and, of course, reading) form is that it helps train the ear to hear the rhythm of speech. Kind of the equivalent of sight singing in music or life drawing in the visual arts--it helps develop a basic skill the poet needs to have.
   
   I think studying form (and attempting to write it) helps develop one's general skill at hearing rhythm in speech.
   .
3. It helps one learn craft. All arts--visual art, dance, music, literary arts--have a major craft component to them. To make an analogy to carpentry, you can't build decent furniture without knowing how to craft joints and without have the knowledge to determine that a mortise and tenon might be a better choice than a dovetail for a particular application (and, of course, knowing how to form one with the tools at one's disposal).
   
   Novice poets too often think that poetry is regurgitating thought. Usually some kind of personal anguish.
   
   Regurgitating anguish is diary, and usually not very interesting diary. Crafting that anguish into something universal is what makes it poetry, and if done superbly well, art.
   .
4. Form is hard--harder than free verse to write moderately well. (Writing either at the highest level is, of course, extremely difficult). This makes the poet think about their writing. The constraints of the form force one to try and express their theme in a (usually) quite fixed format, which means that word choices, rhythm and meter, and such become really hard to bring off without sounding artificial. Some poets will say that this is why new poets shouldn't attempt form. I would suggest that this is exactly why sometimes trying form is important. You have to be better (have more control over your poem) to be even as good.
   .
5. Form is exercise for the poet. Just as a violinist will have exercises that focus on bowing technique, or fingering, or multiple stops, form makes the poet exercise his or her skill at forming a line of text. It has to rhyme (or, preferably, slant rhyme) with this word. It has to basically fit this rhythm. You only have this many syllables or metrical feet, or accentuated syllables, in which to say what you need to say.
   
   So you do it badly--tee it up and try again. It's like hitting practice shots into the 16th green.
   .
6. Finally, and this is personal to me, form can be fun.

 

[Tzara]

I have a question, and a comment.

The question is: do you ever share poems you have written here on Lit with the people that inspired them? Or is this part of your life a silent part of your life?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Sometimes it is appropriate for me to share and sometimes it is not (like that poem about my wife's cousin--that would not have been a good poem to share with any of the personages involved).

And the comment:

I think it's completely ridiculous that you think your life is uninteresting. Lives are not interesting based on travels, affairs or visible drama alone. I do not think you could write poetry in the way you do if your life were uninteresting. Just sayin'. I'd love to meet someone as uninteresting as you

I didn't say my life was uninteresting (to me, anyway), at least in general. Or if I did, that was not what I meant. What I meant to say was that my life is uninteresting as a source for confessional poetry, which tends (in my experience) to be rather like a mildly hysterical reality show.

I really like my life and find it to be generally happy and interesting. To me.

I am in no way going to compete in the general interest department with, say, Heidi Montag or even Silvio Berlusconi, let alone the car wreck that is the Kardashian family.

Some of confessional poetry seems to me to be a more literate version of the Kardashians. I would hope to not be that.

 

[Tzara]

What was the intended purpose of walling off the contest side of your writing?

It just put those poems in a box of their own. One of the issues I had with the contest rules was that you had to write to specific triggers and in specific forms. Sometimes the triggers and, less frequently the forms, were not something that I was much inspired by.

Putting all those poems in one place seemed to isolate them and keep them of a piece.

 

[Tzara]

You're a lot more prolific than I realized, Tzara. And as for being confessional, you obviously are, but in a clever way. I suppose that's to be expected. With you. Clever, I mean.

I'll be damned. As I've said before, cheers.

You don't want the complete list of all my aliases, theognis. Not that I can provide one, anymore. You'd be wading through dreck for months.

Mostly well-intentioned dreck, though.

Erm, mostly.

 

[Tzara]

"Why We Don't" is one of my favorites. You have a knack for using whimsical language, that's also very musical IMO, and layering a poem with deeper truths.

You also know how to note the effort of writers and provide constructive criticism without demeaning the effort.

I don't have a question right now, Tzara. Maybe I will later when I re-read more of your work. I just wanted to acknowledge the contributions you've made here that have been helpful, certainly to me.

Thank you, gm.

You are an excellent and interesting writer (two qualities that are not always coexistent) and I always find your work quite enjoyable.

 

[Tzara]

such interesting reading, this thread.

i'll be back sunday to post, after this initial rush. tzara must feel like a juggler!

It's the pink hot pants that give me the confidence to toss chainsaws about with impunity.

 

[Tzara]

Your Thread of forms' is the first place I head to when I've forgotten how, so for that I thank you

It's where I head myself, when I forget how, which is often.

Thanks, Annie.

 

[todski28]

Those six points on forms should be mandatorily given to every new aspiring poet!

 

[HarryHill]

Tod, Tod, Tod, forms are like three rail billiard shots, used seldom.

 

[todski28]

But when executed properly are they not amazing?

In terms of what I meant was the practice element involved as Tzara pointed out. Even if they don't get posted or shared, if they are used to help build better writing then shouldn't they be implemented, or attempted?

Similar to assistance lifts in power lifting, the arm curls, bent over rows, overhead press are performed to strengthen core stabiliser muscles to aid in strengthening the big 3 lifts, squat, benchpress and deadlift but they aren't used in competition.

So people don't get upset about a possible thread hijack lol, what form does Tzara recommend for a starting poet?

 

[twelveoone]

Even prosaic and popular Billy Collins made up a form--the paradelle.


.
[*]Form OFTEN requires the poet pay attention to some of the most basic elements of poetry. Rhyme, often, of course, and its siblings slant rhyme, near rhyme, off rhyme, sight rhyme, and so on. But I think more importantly it helps train the poet's ear to meter and rhythm.

One of the things about the Poetry Survivor contest of a few years ago was how many poets did not/do not hear the stress patterns of speech. The biggest confusion poets seemed to have about trying to write metered verse is that they could not hear the meter.

Word OFTEN inserted, all FORMS do not require....
the word "meter" is ambivalent, more correctly used, meter has to be assigned and conformed to, in most cases approximately 70% of the time

Now 1201 in his ranting about scansion is correct in saying that English does not map onto a binary stress pattern of syllables either being stressed or non-stressed, but it does map onto some kind of stress pattern, even if that is heard slightly differently by different readers. I think one of the great benefits of writing (and, of course, reading) form is that it helps train the ear to hear the rhythm of speech. Kind of the equivalent of sight singing in music or life drawing in the visual arts--it helps develop a basic skill the poet needs to have.

so you get a map with disputed regions, laughs

I think studying form (and attempting to write it) helps develop one's general skill at hearing rhythm in speech.
.
[*]It helps one learn craft. All arts--visual art, dance, music, literary arts--have a major craft component to them. To make an analogy to carpentry, you can't build decent furniture without knowing how to craft joints and without have the knowledge to determine that a mortise and tenon might be a better choice than a dovetail for a particular application (and, of course, knowing how to form one with the tools at one's disposal).

Novice poets too often think that poetry is regurgitating thought. Usually some kind of personal anguish.

Regurgitating anguish is diary, and usually not very interesting diary. Crafting that anguish into something universal is what makes it poetry, and if done superbly well, art.
.
[*]Form is hard--harder than free verse to write moderately well. (Writing either at the highest level is, of course, extremely difficult). This makes the poet think about their writing. The constraints of the form force one to try and express their theme in a (usually) quite fixed format, which means that word choices, rhythm and meter, and such become really hard to bring off without sounding artificial. Some poets will say that this is why new poets shouldn't attempt form. I would suggest that this is exactly why sometimes trying form is important. You have to be better (have more control over your poem) to be even as good.
.
[*]Form is exercise for the poet. Just as a violinist will have exercises that focus on bowing technique, or fingering, or multiple stops, form makes the poet exercise his or her skill at forming a line of text. It has to rhyme (or, preferably, slant rhyme) with this word. It has to basically fit this rhythm. You only have this many syllables or metrical feet, or accentuated syllables, in which to say what you need to say.

So you do it badly--tee it up and try again. It's like hitting practice shots into the 16th green.
.
[*]Finally, and this is personal to me, form can be fun.
[/list]

no argument here, my argument is about the confusion of form with poetry, indeed a certain blindness, to a certain form of patterning

cases on literotica to consider, annaswirls, fridayam, in most cases Angeline who use a different form of patterning
more famous. Whitman, whose formal poetry is generally regarded as bein quite sucky

and of course, yours truly, who does have a wider range than a certain submitter of sonnets.

and just remember, you rang the bell, La Esmeralda

"Now 1201 in his ranting about scansion is correct..."
buried text. Tzara probably learned more from 1201 than vice versa

Form is exercise for the poet. Just as a violinist will have exercises that focus on bowing technique, or fingering, or multiple stops, form makes the poet exercise his or her skill at forming a line of text.

just don't confuse the finger exercise with the music

So you do it badly--tee it up and try again. It's like hitting practice shots into the 16th century.

 

[Angeline]

Word OFTEN inserted, all FORMS do not require....
the word "meter" is ambivalent, more correctly used, meter has to be assigned and conformed to, in most cases approximately 70% of the time



so you get a map with disputed regions, laughs


no argument here, my argument is about the confusion of form with poetry, indeed a certain blindness, to a certain form of patterning

cases on literotica to consider, annaswirls, fridayam, in most cases Angeline who use a different form of patterning
more famous. Whitman, whose formal poetry is generally regarded as bein quite sucky

and of course, yours truly, who does have a wider range than a certain submitter of sonnets.

and just remember, you rang the bell, La Esmeralda

"Now 1201 in his ranting about scansion is correct..."
buried text. Tzara probably learned more from 1201 than vice versa

Form is exercise for the poet. Just as a violinist will have exercises that focus on bowing technique, or fingering, or multiple stops, form makes the poet exercise his or her skill at forming a line of text.

just don't confuse the finger exercise with the music

So you do it badly--tee it up and try again. It's like hitting practice shots into the 16th century.

Actually I rang the bell, first by setting up this interview and second by asking Tzara a question about form. This is an interview thread, 1201, not an argument thread and I worked hard to get people interested and willing to participate. Therefore if you can take off the Joker mask and ask questions, finding it in your self to be polite, do so. But if you want to fling poo and rant about how and why you disagree, this ain't the place. Start your own thread for that or wait until you get your own interview, assuming you'd even be willing to do one. You know I like you a lot, but this is not the thread for this. I'll move posts if they stray too far from the purpose.

 

[twelveoone]

Actually I rang the bell, first by setting up this interview and second by asking Tzara a question about form. This is an interview thread, 1201, not an argument thread and I worked hard to get people interested and willing to participate. Therefore if you can take off the Joker mask and ask questions, finding it in your self to be polite, do so. But if you want to fling poo and rant about how and why you disagree, this ain't the place. Start your own thread for that or wait until you get your own interview, assuming you'd even be willing to do one. You know I like you a lot, but this is not the thread for this. I'll move posts if they stray too far from the purpose.

My inclination was to leave well enough alone and not darken any one's place in the sun, especially one so deserving
"Now 1201 in his ranting about scansion is correct..."
was as I see it, an invite of sorts
done.
ranting you might agree is a load word

 

[Angeline]

My inclination was to leave well enough alone and not darken any one's place in the sun, especially one so deserving
"Now 1201 in his ranting about scansion is correct..."
was as I see it, an invite of sorts
done.
ranting you might agree is a load word

Yes, but he was saying he agrees with you. And you do sound ranty at times. I know you're not gonna try to say you don't.

Now let's go back to the interview and leave it at that.

ETA: And I hope you realize that if and when I interview you, I'd say the same if anyone seemed to be taking it off track. Like you said, we each deserve our place in the Sun in this context.

 

[theognis]

I could have sworn I made an additional post to this thread, but it seems to have disappeared. Ah, well. No great loss, I'm sure.

 

[butters]

Hello, Tzara

'grats on a meaty thread full of stuff to feed the mind. Now, I've been perusing your writes and enjoying the control, originality of phrasing, and visuals they contain e.g in Combine, this particular part; most specifically "the mattress of a dream" is where image and sensation combine to render it a recognised thing.

my love for you is sprayed
like paint

flung over the mattress of dream. Disordered,
as dreams are or ought to be,
but colored silly as a mirror
tinted zinc and white.

What other artist has a tired goat
for monogram?

Can you fill me in a little on the inspirations behind this write, and do you feel now, in hindsight, it could work as a shorter piece? Yeah, I'm always seeing how other people's writes could lose bulk without losing impact, but suck at doing the same for my own once they've been written.

 

[butters]

A very simple question this time (and there're more to come):

choosing your titles - do they tend to dictate the write, or does the write dictate the title for you?


I'll try and spread my questions out over the thread since you are such a popular interviewee and have so many to answer already. And you can call me chippy anytime you want, butters isn't exclusive.

 

[greenmountaineer]

At the risk of offending or complimenting you (I'm not sure which) the lighthearted which leads to the serious I find in some of your poems remind me of Billy Collins.

Am I Billy spot on, or does this read like fingernails scraping a blackboard?

 

[UnderYourSpell]

A very simple question this time (and there're more to come):

choosing your titles - do they tend to dictate the write, or does the write dictate the title for you?


I'll try and spread my questions out over the thread since you are such a popular interviewee and have so many to answer already. And you can call me chippy anytime you want, butters isn't exclusive.

I'll add my two pennorth to this question .......... please do tell about Titles because I am crap at them, I think I need a whole Teach In on titles!!

 

[Angeline]

I'll add my two pennorth to this question .......... please do tell about Titles because I am crap at them, I think I need a whole Teach In on titles!!

Yes! Color me interested, too! Tzara is really (really) good with titles and I struggle with them every with every poem. I'd love to get a bead on how someone who's good at it does it.

 

[Tzara]

Those six points on forms should be mandatorily given to every new aspiring poet!

Now, todski. That seems a bit extreme.

Tod, Tod, Tod, forms are like three rail billiard shots, used seldom.

Not by everyone, Harry. As I said, A.E. Stallings, who is a wonderful poet, writes almost exclusively in form.

It's a matter of taste and interest, I think.

I would say, though, that it's probably better for beginning poets to do most of their initial work in free verse. There is so much to think about in writing poetry that adding in the form requirements to everything else you're thinking about makes it harder to control the poem. And beginning poets tend to be quite awkward writing metered verse and often employ simplistic rhymes.

Why I said it was hard to do.

But when executed properly are they not amazing?

In terms of what I meant was the practice element involved as Tzara pointed out. Even if they don't get posted or shared, if they are used to help build better writing then shouldn't they be implemented, or attempted?

Similar to assistance lifts in power lifting, the arm curls, bent over rows, overhead press are performed to strengthen core stabiliser muscles to aid in strengthening the big 3 lifts, squat, benchpress and deadlift but they aren't used in competition.

So people don't get upset about a possible thread hijack lol, what form does Tzara recommend for a starting poet?

If you want to try form, I would recommend you start with one that, for whatever reason, appeals to you. Ballad stanza is relatively easy to write and often is an exercise in beginning create writing classes. I tend to dislike ballads, but many people enjoy them. Examples would be "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" by Coleridge or, a more modern example, "The Burglar of Babylon" by Elizabeth Bishop.

Sonnets are popular and also often assigned in introductory classes--usually English sonnets (think Shakespeare). I personally like Italian sonnets better, or find them more interesting to write, but that's just me.

Villanelles and terzanelles can be quite lovely. Angie writes good terzanelles. "Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night" by Dylan Thomas is a villanelle, probably the most famous one.

My personal favorite form is the Onegin Stanza, which was created by Alexander Pushkin as the stanza form he uses in his verse novel Eugene Onegin. It's kind of a sonnet variant that uses tetrameter instead of pentameter and mixes masculine and feminine rhyme. This poem by Vladimir Nabokov is written in Onegin Stanza (ironically so, as Nabokov's English language translation of Onegin is in prose). Most people here hate this form.

Anyway, good luck if you want to try writing form.

 

[HarryHill]

You left a poem in the 'Stalking Desejo' thread that starts "I could lay a jawed trap..." It may be my favorite of yours, but I do not see it listed anywhere in your vault. Do you often misplace 'good' poems?