Undeserved Punishment

[Ms_Lilith]

PYL = Pick Your Label (Master, Mistress, Dom/me, etc.)
pyl = pick your label (slave, submissive, slut, etc.)

It is how ever you describe yourself and your place in the universe.

Esclava

Thank you muchly. *smile*

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Sorry for the confusion

forgive me, but what does PYL mean? I've been reading it throughout this thread, and feel confused by that.

i got tired of having to do a laundry list to avoid exclusion.

Here's the definition, and thanks Esclava.

 

[Kajira Callista]

this is a dreaded I totally agree post..

The thing is, when you are goofing around and playing, such punishments are cool..

"Oh no! Wench! You used a blue elastic to bind your braid witha red shirt."

That is fun.

But when it comes to trust, and serious punishment, I would have an issue. For instance, a young lady in our local club, ordered chinese take away for dinner. She gives excellent directions, but the delivery guy (who had been to the house before) got confused and was late. He apologised and refunded the meal cause it took over an hour to arrive. The subbie chick got no dinner and a literally blistered butt because she should have called sooner and given better directions. She safworded, her PYL ignored it cause this was punishment, not play. Punishment that is undeserved may be a hot fantasy and a great roleplay, but irl, it crosses into abuse and is wrong.

Just my opinion.

(yes, she left her PYL, who has been pretty much ostracised(sp) from our organisation cause she crossed the line.)

It seems to me that people are quick to judge before knowing all. Had the submissive done the same before, had it been discussed and was she warned...for all you know it was an ongoing issue she chose not to improve on and the Dominant let her know that.
I see this alot on this forum, you need two sides to make a decision. If you are seeing submissives as poor put upon souls you kinda have it wrong...they made a choice to take the position in the relationship that they have, and until you know the whole story i would hold off on the judging and condeming.

 

[Ms_Lilith]

Kajira, it's that the PYL didn't listen to the safe-word that would concern me. I understand the punishment, but I believe that in both play and punishment a safe-word must be respected. I know that I only use my safeword when I absolutely can NOT take any more without fearing physical or psychological damage, and as yet, have not had to use it inmy current relationship, but in the past, I've had safewords ignored by other "doms", and it's resulted in various injuries, and a broken relationship.

*shrug* Just my two cents.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Kajira, it's that the PYL didn't listen to the safe-word that would concern me. I understand the punishment, but I believe that in both play and punishment a safe-word must be respected. I know that I only use my safeword when I absolutely can NOT take any more without fearing physical or psychological damage, and as yet, have not had to use it inmy current relationship, but in the past, I've had safewords ignored by other "doms", and it's resulted in various injuries, and a broken relationship.

*shrug* Just my two cents.

like i said before, without knowing both sides, no one has a right to judge what is right or wrong. I have actually seen and heard subs out and out lie about a safeword being ignored, knowing its the biggest no-no im this lifestyle, to get out of a relationship so im skeptical. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, i'm saying you cant make a judgement about something without knowing all of it.

 

[chatbug]

Re: Re: Re: <---Enduring a flash back!!!!!!!

I felt like it was not my fault because mail delivery was something completely out of my hands. The arbitrary punishment - I'll say it - pissed me off and I walked around sullen for the next 45 minutes until the mail finally came. To make it worse, the mail was late due to bad weather. How much more out of my control could that situation have been?

When this happened, my trust in my former to take care of my emotional well-being as his submissive was already in shreds. When he released me from the pins, he asked why I had no expressions of love/appreciation for him and his care of me - and I told him how I really felt - which earned me a belting (beating with a belt - not being punched).

Oh, it is difficult to relive ... but in his "care", I became a much stronger person.

I’m sorry that you were abused in this way. I think I’m reading that you were upset at the arbitrariness as well as the lack of control of the situation. If you’re not expecting to be responsible for someone else’s actions I can understand why you got upset and angry at his punishment.

Would it make a difference if it were expected? If it was something you’d discussed before? (I’m asking everyone these questions, not just Esclava.)

Would you enjoy being made responsible for someone else’s actions or lack thereof (if you’re a sub or bottom) or would you want to make your sub responsible (if you’re a dom/domme)?

In my stories, the surprise is part of the excitement. In real life, I can see and understand that surprise can break the trust between a dom/domme and sub. I don’t know how I would react if my domme surprised me by punishing me for not bringing her the mail. I do know that it arouses me to have a domme punish me for what someone else did or didn’t do.

 

[enigma nocturne]

KC, I know both persons personally, I saw her backside. Basically she was punished harshly for things that were not in her control and then was not allowed to object/defend herself.
She safeworded as a last resort, when the PYL would not talk the situation out.


Re the ostrasiation. The PYL came to a munch and bragged about it, saying it was an opportunity to show the pyl her place. The fact that the woman has been roundly ignored is due to (a) ignoring a safeword, (b) punishing for things the girl could not control, (c) refusing to talk about it with the injured party. We did not make a concensus decision to ignore her. Most folks feelt he woman does not control herself well enough to invite her to play parties and none of us pyl's will go near a PYL who ignores a safeword.



Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that punishment with out reason can adversely affect both parties. My opinion, do not do this on either end of the flogger.

 

[Esclava]

Re: <---Enduring a flash back!!!!!!!

I’m sorry that you were abused in this way. I think I’m reading that you were upset at the arbitrariness as well as the lack of control of the situation. If you’re not expecting to be responsible for someone else’s actions I can understand why you got upset and angry at his punishment.

Would it make a difference if it were expected? If it was something you’d discussed before? (I’m asking everyone these questions, not just Esclava.)

Would you enjoy being made responsible for someone else’s actions or lack thereof (if you’re a sub or bottom) or would you want to make your sub responsible (if you’re a dom/domme)?

In my stories, the surprise is part of the excitement. In real life, I can see and understand that surprise can break the trust between a dom/domme and sub. I don’t know how I would react if my domme surprised me by punishing me for not bringing her the mail. I do know that it arouses me to have a domme punish me for what someone else did or didn’t do.

Yes, chatbug, the arbitrary punishment is what lead to the attitude and anger. There was absolutely NOTHING I could have done to increase the chance that the mail would be on time.

Now, if it had been delivered to the house, I found (or had) something else to do and made him wait for me to bring it inside - aha - we now have a punishable act of a contrary sub. I very willingly accept punishment for lapses in good judgement - even though I did not expect punishment for such an offense. This was one of the many incidents that made me swear I would never return to this lifestyle. But the D/s within calls to me and I must respond ...

Would I enjoy being held responsible for someone else's incompetence? Very likely not. I won't say absolutely not because I believe that in a HEALTHY relationship - where the love and trust are unshakeable - arbitrary punishment can work. I don't believe it should be a regular practice as it can erode the foundation of the relationship. Nor should it be so severe as to cause physical/emotional damage - or both. Talking about the expectations prior helps put the submissive on notice of what to expect - not necessarily when to expect it (thus the elelment of surprise). Communication is truly the key and without that, ANY type of punishment can turn an otherwise loving relationship into a battleground almost overnight.

My former and I had very poor communication with each other because I was new and did not know any better. I have learned better and IF I accept another RL Dom/me (or Master) in my life, S/He will not find as fragile a creature as my former was graced with.

Esclava

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: <---Enduring a flash back!!!!!!!

Would it make a difference if it were expected? If it was something you’d discussed before? (I’m asking everyone these questions, not just Esclava.)

If i had discussed a subject before, you can bet your jewels i did it leaving no room for misinterpretation. Different strokes for different folks, but i don't satisfy my sadistic urges when displeased, nor as a means of punishment. The former invites loss of control, and i despise that. The second turns the little masochistic bitch into a bucket of cum, so what's the point?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Re: Re: <---Enduring a flash back!!!!!!!

Talking about the expectations prior helps put the submissive on notice of what to expect - not necessarily when to expect it (thus the elelment of surprise).
Esclava

This does seem to be key. The idea of this particular mindfuck (as i see it) does somehow excite me, but it is a real hot button of mine, as anyone who has been reading my posts lately knows. Which is probably also why the excitement. Unfairness of any stripe, really.

I would have to know that this was a possibility at some point though, or it would probably take me places it wouldn't be a good idea to go. The seeming intent would certainly make a difference, too.
How do you picture the Dom/me performing the unfair punishment? Matter-of-factly? With self-righteous contempt? In a sexy insidious manner? Anger? Sadness? Tone would probably make a difference in my reaction.

I got an unfair intense spanking back in high school, at the manipulation of a friend of my bf's, who wanted me 'put in my place' and also wanted to watch. My bf was gleeful and showing off. And not knowing his own strength, ignored my screams that I was really serious, which were mostly muffled by loud music.

A guy in a neighboring room intervened. And while I defended my bf to the neighbor, didn't trust him anymore, and was certainly on warning now, with his friend.

This was one of the things that, for the longest time, made me sure that I'm NOT into d/s or bdsm, contributed to it taking so long to get started, and being so wary about the whole idea.

(Now, in retrospect, imagining it, it seems kinda sexy. At the time it was just the opposite and really pissed me off.)

 

[Esclava]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: <---Enduring a flash back!!!!!!!

If i had discussed a subject before, you can bet your jewels i did it leaving no room for misinterpretation. Different strokes for different folks, but i don't satisfy my sadistic urges when displeased, nor as a means of punishment. The former invites loss of control, and i despise that. The second turns the little masochistic bitch into a bucket of cum, so what's the point?

Help me understand, AA. In the first instance, I hear that when you are displeased, satisfaction of your sadistic urges is the last thing on your mind. In the second, I get the message that you consider it tftb (an act worthy of punishment, imo).

If I am understanding correctly, is there a difference for you between TRUE arbitrary punishment for a minor offense (outside of sub's control) and punishment for a real infraction? And how do you tell the difference? How does the sub tell the difference?

Something else that smacked me...there is a latent assumption that the "bitch" in question will be masochistic - is that always the case? What happens if she is not? I'm specifically asking you about your opinion, but these questions could be answered by anyone/everyone.

Thanks!

Esclava

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Beating Coolhand Luke in a different way

TRUE arbitrary punishment for a minor offense (outside of sub's control) and punishment for a real infraction?

What we have here, is a failure to communicate ...

Pardon the reference, but i just couldn't resist.

To answer your question seriously, however, when i choose to inflict physical pain, i do it for my jollies, not as punishment. Remember the "What a sub should never say to a Dom/mes" thread? My tools for punishment include things such as a mirror, an empty room, a black magic marker, and the most insidious mindfuck of them all ... isolation.

And how do you tell the difference? How does the sub tell the difference?

Easy list:

• She's not getting punished,
• She's cumming like a banshee
• and i'm letting her do so.

...there is a latent assumption that the "bitch" in question will be masochistic - is that always the case? What happens if she is not?

You say bitch like it's a bad thing. In this case, add "manipulative" in front and "soon to be out the door" behind.

Let's see "will be masochistic." Let's answer. Why settle for a glass half full/empty?

Last, and i'll answer as politely as i can, if she is not, i wish her good luck looking for her PYL.

 

[Esclava]

Re: Beating Coolhand Luke in a different way

What we have here, is a failure to communicate ...

Pardon the reference, but i just couldn't resist.

...You say bitch like it's a bad thing. In this case, add "manipulative" in front and "soon to be out the door" behind.

...

At least I knew it was a breakdown in communication and had the presence of mind(?) to ask for clarity.

...and being a bitch is NEVER a bad thing...

Thank you,

Esclava

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Re: Beating Coolhand Luke in a different way

... and being a bitch is NEVER a bad thing...

Depends on the bitch in question.

The only one for i which i have interest, or tolerance, howls like one in heat while getting taken in the Archer's Bow.

i'd have no problem putting a leash on her for a walk to black tie and tails cuisine.

... Thank you,

Esclava

You're welcome.

 

[Netzach]

I don't do serious punishment. If I'm punishing in seriousness, the relationship has already degenerated to a point where simple requests and corrective instruction aren't enough, and for me, that's a sign of something stinking.

So ALL "punishments" of a physical nature are for completely idiotic assertions and the cathartic quality of being punished.

In fact I just punished a girl for "burning" her schoolroom desk when we know the dungeon I use only has one to start with. The anti-social little satanic screw up.

 

[chatbug]

Torment play

Thanks for your responses.

I've come to realize that what I've been describing is not punishment but a form of torment play between a sadist and a masochist where an outside party determines the length of the torment. Now if I only had a shorthand name for this type of play, I’d be set.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Torment play

Now if I only had a shorthand name for this type of play, I’d be set.

How about backseat driving, or BSD for short?

 

[evesdream]

The PYL came to a munch and bragged about it, saying it was an opportunity to show the pyl her place..


what is a pyl?

 

[Kajira Callista]

The PYL came to a munch and bragged about it, saying it was an opportunity to show the pyl her place..


what is a pyl?

points up a few posts^^^^^^

 

[evesdream]

points up a few posts^^^^^^

Aha, I love it!

 

[Richard49]

this is a dreaded I totally agree post..

The thing is, when you are goofing around and playing, such punishments are cool..

"Oh no! Wench! You used a blue elastic to bind your braid witha red shirt."

That is fun.

But when it comes to trust, and serious punishment, I would have an issue. For instance, a young lady in our local club, ordered chinese take away for dinner. She gives excellent directions, but the delivery guy (who had been to the house before) got confused and was late. He apologised and refunded the meal cause it took over an hour to arrive. The subbie chick got no dinner and a literally blistered butt because she should have called sooner and given better directions. She safworded, her PYL ignored it cause this was punishment, not play. Punishment that is undeserved may be a hot fantasy and a great roleplay, but irl, it crosses into abuse and is wrong.

Just my opinion.

(yes, she left her PYL, who has been pretty much ostracised(sp) from our organisation cause she crossed the line.)

safe words should NEVER be ignored

 

[Richard49]

Punishment is just that
pinishment

If there is need for spanking, flogging
standing in corner
verbal humilation
whatever


than it should be delvered
but not in the guise of punishment

punishment should be something
that the person receiving it does NOT enjoy

 

[Pure]

well, if someone enjoys pain, humiliation, even 'being put in his/her place', then....

the only way to 'punish' the person, then is

to be really nice,
make them a cake,
wait on them hand and foot.

 

[Kajira Callista]

well, if someone enjoys pain, humiliation, even 'being put in his/her place', then....

the only way to 'punish' the person, then is

to be really nice,
make them a cake,
wait on them hand and foot.

no....thats how you would turn them off and make them run away...punishment would be silence.

 

[Richard49]

well, if someone enjoys pain, humiliation, even 'being put in his/her place', then....

the only way to 'punish' the person, then is

to be really nice,
make them a cake,
wait on them hand and foot.

ignor them