What Punishment Works Or Doesn't Work For You?

[cellis]

Des I have to say that I agree with you 100%... abandonment is not punishment... it is abuse.

Once Himself and I were talking about what the worst thing was that he could do... and I said to remove himself from my presence... to retreat or not talk to me for a given period of time and he looked at me and said that he would never do that.... that it was not punishment...

There was this time though, that I had questioned something he was doing or had done... and he called me the next day and told me to go home and wait for him... he gave me really explict instructions that I was to follow.

So waiting there on the bed on my hands and knees for him.... and he made me wait about 20 mins like that... When he came in I was not allowed to look at him or talk to him or touch him... and he just talked to me about our roles and my role as his sub... and was stern with me.... and then he grabbed my hair and lifted my head up so that I was facing him and told me to never question him about something like I had questioned him again.

And I never have.

This is what works for me.... at least that time it did...

 

[superlittlegirl]

Re: Male vs. Female?

Do you think the abandonment issue is one faced more by female subs?

My boys do not seem to concern themselves with this issue. That is why I asked.

Ebony

This question has set my mind whirling, Ebony.

I'd imagine that the societal patterns regarding interpersonal relationships between men and women have a lot to do with this phenomenon. Although we do not all fit into this dyad of male/female interdependency (I'm thinking of myself, a queer girl who doesn't care much for conventional relationship structures, specifically), I think that it has made a strong impression on the behavioral patterns of many people on a subconscious level. It is (justifiably or not) embedded in our culture that men are providers and women are provided for. This is enforced by the fact that men hold the large percentage of the world's resources, monetarily and otherwise. Now, I know that this does not always play out in reality, but I think that when a woman is abandoned, the culturally influenced response is to worry about what is going to happen because she is suddenly without the level of access to resources she previously had. This can be seen in a literal sense, but it can also be seen in the sense that many women look to men for emotional strength, support and protection. A woman who is "abandoned" has very practical issues for concern.

By contrast, because men control a large share of the resources and traditionally have greater financial security, they are not socialized to panic when they are suddenly not in a relationship. They don't have the statistical drop in poverty to worry about when a relationship dissolves. And because they are socialized to be the providers and the protectors, it's easy enough for them to project that image with confidence when they are ready to find another mate.

Add to this socialization stew the fact that in many BDSM relationships, a power exchange occurs that does encourage a stronger degree of interdependence than you might find in 'nilla relationship. The reward for relinquishing autonomy is protection. The reward for submission is the relaxation that comes from being dominated. When this balance is upset by an absent partner, especially a dominant male partner's absence, the security a sub "traded for" is no longer there, and she has to figure out what to do to take up that slack.

I think I may have petered out on my explanation here. I probably could have just summed it up easily by saying that men are traditionally socialized to be much more self-sufficient and independent than women are, so they don't take it so hard. I know that there are exceptions to every rule, and this post is largely characterized by broad strokes and generalizations, so please don't think that at any point I meant "all men" or "all women" in any ideas I put forth.

I think I'm tired. I hope this makes sense when I look at it tomorrow.

--Freya

 

[Desdemona]

I think I agree that in a broad sense, some of the abandonment issue may be societal conditioning for some women. At least, it makes sense to me.

I think, for now, I'll refrain from discussing this further. My experience with abandonment is too recent for me to coherently articulate my thoughts about it. I stand by my statement that for me, it feels abusive and is not something to which I would ever consent.



edited for grammar

 

[Ebonyfire]

I empathize

I think I agree that in a broad sense, some of the abandonment issue may be societal conditioning for some women. At least, it makes sense to me.

I think, for now, I'll refrain from discussing this further. My experience with abandonment is too recent for me to coherently articulate my thoughts about it. I stand by my statement that for me, it feels abusive and is not something to which I would ever consent.



edited for grammar

I totally understand, Des. I hope you heal soon.

Ebony <hugging Des>

 

[Desdemona]

Re: I empathize

I totally understand, Des. I hope you heal soon.

Ebony <hugging Des>

Thanks Eb. I needed the hug just now.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

From what I've gathered about relationships between Dommes and sub men (and I could be off base here), there is a certain amount of caring, even liking, but little in the way of emotional attachment

That is a correct assessment of interactions with my current subs. I prefer the term that Shadowsdream uses. She calls it "magic" between sub and Domme. I like the magic.

I find it is a mistake to deviate from that philosophy.

Ebony

 

[superlittlegirl]

Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

That is a correct assessment of interactions with my current subs. I prefer the term that Shadowsdream uses. She calls it "magic" between sub and Domme. I like the magic.

I find it is a mistake to deviate from that philosophy.

Ebony

This is a very nice way to explain the certain indescribable something that can exist in a Domme/sub relationship. I've been searching for an appropriate descriptor for quite some time now, and I'm so happy to see that you've found one that works so well.

I agree, also, that it is a mistake to deviate from the philosophy. I have a problem with establishing emotional boundaries with certain subs, though. My nurturing side exhibits itself too readily, and I find myself being inappropriately tender with the ones I connect with strongly on an interpersonal level. How do you establish the appropriate distance and detachment to maintain the "magic"?

--Freya

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

This is a very nice way to explain the certain indescribable something that can exist in a Domme/sub relationship. I've been searching for an appropriate descriptor for quite some time now, and I'm so happy to see that you've has found one that works so well.

I agree, also, that it is a mistake to deviate from the philosophy. I have a problem with establishing emotional boundaries with certain subs, though. My nurturing side exhibits itself too readily, and I find myself being inappropriately tender with the ones I connect with strongly on an interpersonal level. How do you establish the appropriate distance and detachment to maintain the "magic"?

--Freya

It comes from Shadowsdream, not me, but I agree with you, it is the perfect phrase to describe it.

Eb

 

[superlittlegirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

It comes from Shadowsdream, not me, but I agree with you, it is the perfect phrase to describe it.

Eb

I did see that it was to Shadowsdream's credit-- I actually meant you in the plural sense of both of you. I almost edited my post to reflect that before I hit the submit button, and then I forgot. Lack of sleep is making me sloppy. So we can credit Shadowsdream for the innovation in appropriate descriptors, and you for bringing it to my attention. I thank you both.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

I did see that it was to Shadowsdream's credit-- I actually meant you in the plural sense of both of you. I almost edited my post to reflect that before I hit the submit button, and then I forgot. Lack of sleep is making me sloppy. So we can credit Shadowsdream for the innovation in appropriate descriptors, and you for bringing it to my attention. I thank you both.

You are always welcome Freya. Anyone who brings a sparkle to my dear brother can say or do anything to me. I love him dearly.

Eb

 

[superlittlegirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

You are always welcome Freya. Anyone who brings a sparkle to my dear brother can say or do anything to me. I love him dearly.

Eb

I love him, too. It makes me so happy to know that he's got the love of all us wonderful women! (And some wonderful men, too, I'd imagine) He's just so darn lovable. He's one of the truly good people in the world, and I'm glad to know him.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

I love him, too. It makes me so happy to know that he's got the love of all us wonderful women! (And some wonderful men, too, I'd imagine) He's just so darn lovable. He's one of the truly good people in the world, and I'm glad to know him.

He's spoiled, isn't he?

Eb

 

[superlittlegirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

He's spoiled, isn't he?

Eb

Yes, terribly. But not as spoiled as Mistress Monique. You should really ask him about her....

He does deserve to be spoiled, though. He's a good one.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Male vs. Female?

Yes, terribly. But not as spoiled as Mistress Monique. You should really ask him about her....

He does deserve to be spoiled, though. He's a good one.

I will ask, thanks!

Eb

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bump....

 

[littlebus]

We've found a quiet talk to explain what was done wrong, along with the way to do it right next time, followed by 5-10 minutes standing with the sub's nose in a corner to think it over works well for us. It often ends in a hug. It's about the correcting the behavior, not hurting the other person.

Spankings are more a reward than a punishment.

 

[rosco rathbone]

We've found a quiet talk to explain what was done wrong, along with the way to do it right next time, followed by 5-10 minutes standing with the sub's nose in a corner to think it over works well for us. It often ends in a hug. It's about the correcting the behavior, not hurting the other person.

Spankings are more a reward than a punishment.

I like this.

 

[kerker_miester]

I'm going to throw this out mainly to subs, but I welcome any Doms input as well.

As I think we are all willing to admit, every person is an individual and we react to certain things differently. This is a good thing - life would be boring without it!

My experience has been limited in the lifestyle, but one thing that has been a constant among the Doms I've met, in regards to punishment, is this abandoning thing. I'm sure most know what I'm talking about, especially if you do not live with your Dominant. Something happens, misunderstanding, miscommunication, sub not doing something s/he should have and the Dom/me cuts off all contact - no phone calls, not seeing the sub, no email, etc. The effect, I think, is that the sub is supposed to be on pins and needles, biting his/her fingernails, wanting desperately to get back into the good graces of the Dominant.

This just don't work for me. When a Dom pulls this on me, I look at it as "breaktime" - and I enjoy the freedom to do as I please. I know the "game", and often laugh at the prospect that some guy is thinking I'm sweating over the fact that he is refusing to talk/see me. Therefore, when he is finally willing to "forgive" me, I'm usually nowhere to be found. I have learned to hide very well, and if I don't want to be "found", I can stay gone for weeks. (Of course, this doesn't work that easily when the guy lives right around the corner, but I have been known to take trips out of the country to play this "game".)

Now, I know some will say this behavior is "topping from the bottom" - especially since, in every instance when he does find me, he's usually desperate to know where I've been. (And if he disappears, I truly don't care) But I would disagree - this form of "punishment" is just something that doesn't work with me. Yes, I'm stubborn. Yes, I'm willfull. And, yes, I do require a Dominant who is more creative than this.

So, what works or doesn't work for you? Maybe I'll find something that will finally work, as most forms of "punishment" really don't have much effect on me. (Does make me wonder sometimes!)

I will start off by saying I am no expert on this, but it has worked in the past. I do not belive in just walking away from a sub as that can kill a relationship that I may want to otherwise continue it is a matter of properly letting the sub know I am displeased and intend to punish her/him.As you have said each is an individual and sould be punnished as such. I learned this from my mother she had 8 children and each has a punishment that worked for him or her, my older brother take away star trek, my younger sister scolding was all it took, the youngest required a belt, paddle, and in the corner for two days. So it all depends on the sub if she/he is in to pain don't try whippin into shape, try something as simple as taking away something they like to do. Depending on the extent of your D/s relationship you may take away their permission to freely speak to you ect. Well right or wrong thats the way I see it.

 

[TaintedB]

My experience has been limited in the lifestyle, but one thing that has been a constant among the Doms I've met, in regards to punishment, is this abandoning thing. I'm sure most know what I'm talking about, especially if you do not live with your Dominant. Something happens, misunderstanding, miscommunication, sub not doing something s/he should have and the Dom/me cuts off all contact - no phone calls, not seeing the sub, no email, etc. The effect, I think, is that the sub is supposed to be on pins and needles, biting his/her fingernails, wanting desperately to get back into the good graces of the Dominant.

This just don't work for me. When a Dom pulls this on me, I look at it as "breaktime" - and I enjoy the freedom to do as I please. I know the "game", and often laugh at the prospect that some guy is thinking I'm sweating over the fact that he is refusing to talk/see me. Therefore, when he is finally willing to "forgive" me, I'm usually nowhere to be found. I have learned to hide very well, and if I don't want to be "found", I can stay gone for weeks. (Of course, this doesn't work that easily when the guy lives right around the corner, but I have been known to take trips out of the country to play this "game".)

I'm in absolute agreement with you in regards to the "abandonment" game. Listen doms, f you're just messing around online with someone you don't know that well, and are not yet really serious about, it often backfires on you, as you described above. Or she'll "learn" from you and start playing the same game on you when you least expect it. Hate and cruelty begets hate and cruelty, in my observation. A woman emotionally vulnerable to you will often buckle under that sort of emotional blackmail (that's what abandoment is--especailly for many submissives) and "appear" to become compliant in the short them, but this sort of behavior has disasterous long term consequences. In addition, an increasing number of strong and very interesting submissive personalities are hip to this game and will use it to disqualify you as someone to take seriously. They may even decide to abandon you...permanently.

If you're trying to form a close loving bond with someone, if you're trying to inspire them to trust you and not see you as just another one of the thousands of hurtful childish bozos out there parading around with the false dominant label, then abandoning someone in this way is the kiss of death to the relationship, abeit an often slooow death. Oh, if she loves you or is starting to fall in love with you it might _appear_ to be extremely effective: she will be all contrite, hurt, fearful of causing this to happen again, etc. Ideal, eh? Only if you want a slave who has learned to censor and hide who she really is from you because she knows that if she doesn't you'll play really dirty--hit her below the belt, where her deepest insecurities are. The problem with her censoring real behavior (even if it's behavior you don't like) is that is leaves you with a little (heh!) problem of control later on. The less you know about the person you are trying to control, the less able you will be to really control her when it becomes essential. Someone who is willing to be so childishly hurtful (online dom abandonment always makes me think of the little boy who tries to punish his parents by running away from home, lol--"WAAAAH! I'll teach HER a lesson for being such a mean mommy!") also, without realizing it, looses a lot of respect in the submissive's eyes. It may look to him or her that they've gained respect, initially, because the sub will sometimes comply with the game and in fact be very hurt and affected by it, but deep inside where it matters, most people know that anybody capable of pulling such a childish prank, of messing with their emotions in that sort of callous and narcissistic manner, is not worth much trust or commitment.

As for what works, I'm personally in the quiet, caring, conversation crowd. Extremely effective for me, especially if the dominant doesn't display anger or hurt but just discusses the issue rationally with me, adult to adult. As a last resort a non-erotic physical punishment would hammer the lesson home--but only if combined with a conversation. I think that as a dominant it is extremely stupid to just assume that a submissive knows when she's done something you don't want repeated and specifically what you took offense to. People vastly differ in their ideas about what is good or bad behavior and often a strong people-pleaser will not intend to do something that annoys you (or that you don't want repeated for other reasons, such as it being dangerous to her or bad for the relationship): her misbehavior will be completely unconscious on her part. She may even think she's pleasing you by doing it. Only talking about the incident or attitude will clarify this for her. A two-way conversation in which she can freely, and without emotional punishment, express her point of view also helps to get her on your side (an essential important element of control in long-term relationships) If you leave the connection unclear by just performing the punishment, if what you dislike about the behavior and why she should avoid it in the future is not made explict, whatever punishment you decide on will have little or no positive effect and serve to increase misunderstanding and bad feelings between the two of you.

 

[TaintedB]

I will start off by saying I am no expert on this, but it has worked in the past. I do not belive in just walking away from a sub as that can kill a relationship that I may want to otherwise continue it is a matter of properly letting the sub know I am displeased and intend to punish her/him.As you have said each is an individual and sould be punnished as such. I learned this from my mother she had 8 children and each has a punishment that worked for him or her, my older brother take away star trek, my younger sister scolding was all it took, the youngest required a belt, paddle, and in the corner for two days. So it all depends on the sub if she/he is in to pain don't try whippin into shape, try something as simple as taking away something they like to do. Depending on the extent of your D/s relationship you may take away their permission to freely speak to you ect. Well right or wrong thats the way I see it.

I bet, however, your mother never told you or one of your brothers or sisters that she wasn't going to be your "mommy" for several days and that he or she was on his own. "Go get your own food, don't expect me to drive you to school or tell you to do your homework, no I won't be there to listen to you if anything terrible happens that confuses or hurts you. For the next week, Johnney, you don't exist for me. You are motherless."

Because dom-sub relationships frequently contain a parental dynamic, whether the two individuals involved admit to it or not, abandonment is frequently interpreted in terms of that dynamic by the sub, with a disasterous loss of trust as the typical result. That's assuming the relationship is a serious and longterm one. In casual or new online relationships, this kind of game can appear to have results if the woman doesn't laugh you out of your chat window first, lol, although, as I said above, if anything serious develops from the cyber connection, it will eventually backfire on you.

 

[kerker_miester]

I bet, however, your mother never told you or one of your brothers or sisters that she wasn't going to be your "mommy" for several days and that he or she was on his own. "Go get your own food, don't expect me to drive you to school or tell you to do your homework, no I won't be there to listen to you if anything terrible happens that confuses or hurts you. For the next week, Johnney, you don't exist for me. You are motherless."

Because dom-sub relationships frequently contain a parental dynamic, whether the two individuals involved admit to it or not, abandonment is frequently interpreted in terms of that dynamic by the sub, with a disasterous loss of trust as the typical result. That's assuming the relationship is a serious and longterm one. In casual or new online relationships, this kind of game can appear to have results if the woman doesn't laugh you out of your chat window first, lol, although, as I said above, if anything serious develops from the cyber connection, it will eventually backfire on you.

Though I used the removal of freedon to address the Dom as a form of punishment, I do in no way think a total lack of comunication is the way to go. Proper comunication is a must in any relationship. My second older brother would get so angry he would not talk but yell so my mother would tell him to go to his room and not to come out till he could talk to her quietly. I in no way think that ignoring anyone is a way to resolve a problem.

 

[Rrrosyn]

Does abandonment include withdrawl?

I struggle very hard with myself not to withdraw because I know it makes my sub feel abandoned. By withdraw, I mean getting very quiet and not letting him touch me. Sometimes absolute silence on my part. (Which is odd, because I grew up in a household of screamers and still do participate such with my family.)

The silent treatment may work on others, but he gets scared, insecure, worried, and worse. On other words, he goes through all the signs of being abandoned.

On the other hand, a simple quiet and firm, "I am very disappointed" makes him look like a kicked dog. Works wonders.

And the corner thing... try making subbie hold a quarter to a flat wall with his or her nose. (Actually I got the quarter thing from what my sister does to her kids. 1 minute per year of age.) Treating sub like a child can be humiliating. If it works.

 

[Shy_Joanna]

While a severe spanking or caning is obviously a good punishment, I think the one that works best for me is when my Dom makes his dissapointment obvious by telling me to leave. I know next time to behave myself, or I'll go without a good fucking again!

 

[FurryFury]

I never need punishing! *smiles sweetly* Which is good because I don't react well or in expected ways to such things.

Fury

 

[Private_Label]

I never need punishing! *smiles sweetly* Which is good because I don't react well or in expected ways to such things.

Fury

I respond way better with positive reinformcement than with negative. Abandonment - in RL would suck and be a dealbreaker for me. On-line if I don't here from him - usually because he is busy - if he doesn't have the time to say, "thanks for the e-mail, I'm too busy to say much now..." then I have to wonder if he has time to read what I am sending him. Without any input from him, I decide he doesn't want to continue our relationship. While I may still pine after him, I don't want to flood his in box with whiney e-mails either. I certainly don't like getting whiney "why don't you want me?" letters, so I refuse to send them to others. If he doesn't want me, it will hurt a lot, but I will move on.