What's the difference...

[Ebonyfire]

To me, abuse is abuse

Does it matter in what context it is performed?

It still will kill you or send you to the hospital or nut house.

Eb

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: What's the difference...

MzChrista....I was posting a question about vanilla and bdsm people in general, framed with examples in the preamble to the question from my personal experience, which has been limited to me as a Boy D interacting with Girl s people.

The question is: "Is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths?"

I hope that you, like Perse, will find time to discuss the question rather than focusing on me.

Thanks;
Lance

Now see lance heres the problem. Im sure you think you being thoughtful and no body can object but read your post over and tell me shouldnt the dommes here feel dissed? If the only things women are is nilla or sub, then me and Eb and Shadowsdream and MsW etc are either lying or deluded. I dont think you mean that but thats what you are bringing up and of course it will piss people off.
So I aint gonna argue the deal but maybe you want to think about that because I know you werent trying to start shit here.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: What's the difference...

MzChrista....I was posting a question about vanilla and bdsm people in general, framed with examples in the preamble to the question from my personal experience, which has been limited to me as a Boy D interacting with Girl s people.

The question is: "Is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths?"

I hope that you, like Perse, will find time to discuss the question rather than focusing on me.

Thanks;
Lance

Well see thats why I explained the problem I had with what you wrote instead of just calling you a numbnuts or something. I figured that was what you menat but I wish youd be a little bit more careful not to post so as to make people wonder if you are flippin them off.

OK, so what I think is that you judging a huge group of people by a small part of them. Some peoples inner truths got nothing to do with these issues at all. The people I meet are prescreened by the face I show the public so I cant draw a conclusion from the ones who actually make contact with me.
I can flip this over and tell you that damn near every man I know including DOMS sooner or later wants me to Domme them. But I dont think that means that all men are subs at heart , just that the ones who get close enough to me to ask are.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the difference...

I can flip this over and tell you that damn near every man I know including DOMS sooner or later wants me to Domme them. But I dont think that means that all men are subs at heart , just that the ones who get close enough to me to ask are.

MzC, is it like this? the men who come in contact with you, see something in you that brings whatever submissive desires they have to the surface, and they feel safe enough to ask for it , when they might not be able to ask a "lesser" dominant woman?

They recognize that you have something that they desire.

Does that makes sense?

Eb

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the difference...

MzC, is it like this? the men who come in contact with you, see something in you that brings whatever submissive desires they have to the surface, and they feel safe enough to ask for it , when they might not be able to ask a "lesser" dominant woman?

They recognize that you have something that they desire.

Does that makes sense?

Eb

Yep it sure does. So for me to draw a conclusion across the board from that and say all men are subs would be wrong. So I think if Lance brings out the sub in women who have it in them all you can say from that is that thats them , and Lance got it going on.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: My 10¢ (my 2¢ is free...)

Oddly enough, Lance, this has been something I've been wondering about myself! (one of about 10,000,000 questions yet to be asked)

At first, looking back on the relationships I've been fortunate enough to have, including the first 'real' one (more real than my marriage) with my current roommate - and in all of them, the Dominant nature of my own sexuality always showed through, creating a submissive aspect in my partners. While I wasn't really pursuing true D/s (wasn't really aware of it at that time), the underlying themes - and quite possibly the foundations - were there. Looking back, I've been trying to determine if it was true - that with some exceptions (the obvious being Dommes! heh), most women were 'subs waiting to happen'.

But as I've thought about it more, and taken a closer look, I've realized that the women I've been with have all suffered some form of abuse in their life. And that my strength of character is part of what drew them to me. I think you've got the right idea, Lance, that it's not all women, it's just the ones we're drawn to and are drawn to strong men who carry themselves with the aspect of control in their lives.

And Perspehone - with no psychological research, that's a conclusion (relating to parents) I've come to believe on my own... are you the older sister Mom never told me she had???

But that only works if you buy the assumption that submissive men are not strong or dominant men. NOt all so called dominant men are dominant all the time.

Eb

 

[Anastasia]

..between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?


Hi Lance,

I have been lurking here for a few months and have thoroughly enjoyed watching you get into and out of trouble on a regular basis. Way to push everyone's limits !!

." because I haven't touched a so-called vanilla woman in ten years that doesn't secretly yearn for D/s. "
Maybe because non-submissive women are not attracted to your assured, confident, dominant self nor you to theirs. I'm pretty sure there are women who don't secretly yearn for D/s , just as there are submissive women and dominant women (and men) and all degrees in between.

"Consequently, after twenty years of feminist dogma clouding things for me as a man at times, .."
The feminist movement, as I understand it, does not preclude submissiveness if one is so inclined. I can understand how it may have clouded issues for men but for many women, it has actually allowed for that submissive side to emerge.

"All I need to do as a man is see it and create the climate in which it may blossom, in my view."
Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES !!! I am rather new to this lifestyle and , therefore, know diddly squat about that which I speak, but I have been trying (nicely, or course) to get that point across to my dominant partner from the get-go. I don't want to go by the rule book. Just like "vanilla sex", things will evolve naturally if you just go with your instincts. Hope you don't mind of I use your "climate" quote.

Nice to meet you.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: What's the difference...

Now see lance heres the problem. Im sure you think you being thoughtful and no body can object but read your post over and tell me shouldnt the dommes here feel dissed? If the only things women are is nilla or sub, then me and Eb and Shadowsdream and MsW etc are either lying or deluded. I dont think you mean that but thats what you are bringing up and of course it will piss people off.
So I aint gonna argue the deal but maybe you want to think about that because I know you werent trying to start shit here.

Damn, MzC, I love it when you cut to the chase!

Eb

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: What's the difference...

Hi Anastasia;

Thanks for posting.

I think that holding up bits of my life and those of others offered here are great ways to start discussions.

Sometimes people get caught up in the examples, or people, or the semantics of the posts instead of the issues.

And sometimes, yes, I'll say things to push someone's kookoo button, just for fun, especially if they're not paying attention to the ideas in the threads and are focusing on simple argumentativeness.

I've noticed that lurkers seem to pick up on this facet of things faster than regular posters.

~~~~~

Yes, the idea is to learn to find the kind of people you like being with, because a lot of joy can come from that.

Good luck in leading your horse to the waters of your submission.

Perhaps if you leave him a glass in the form of a book ar article now and then, he'll learn to drink.

Cheers;
Lance

..between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?


Hi Lance,

I have been lurking here for a few months and have thoroughly enjoyed watching you get into and out of trouble on a regular basis. Way to push everyone's limits !!

." because I haven't touched a so-called vanilla woman in ten years that doesn't secretly yearn for D/s. "
Maybe because non-submissive women are not attracted to your assured, confident, dominant self nor you to theirs. I'm pretty sure there are women who don't secretly yearn for D/s , just as there are submissive women and dominant women (and men) and all degrees in between.

"Consequently, after twenty years of feminist dogma clouding things for me as a man at times, .."
The feminist movement, as I understand it, does not preclude submissiveness if one is so inclined. I can understand how it may have clouded issues for men but for many women, it has actually allowed for that submissive side to emerge.

"All I need to do as a man is see it and create the climate in which it may blossom, in my view."
Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES !!! I am rather new to this lifestyle and , therefore, know diddly squat about that which I speak, but I have been trying (nicely, or course) to get that point across to my dominant partner from the get-go. I don't want to go by the rule book. Just like "vanilla sex", things will evolve naturally if you just go with your instincts. Hope you don't mind of I use your "climate" quote.

Nice to meet you.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the difference...

Yep it sure does. So for me to draw a conclusion across the board from that and say all men are subs would be wrong. So I think if Lance brings out the sub in women who have it in them all you can say from that is that thats them , and Lance got it going on.

Is there any need to put full Politically Correct Limiting Language in every thing we say?..."WARNING": Non feminist subs, domme hets, dom bi's, maso-sub lesbians....may or may not be affected by this post. Consult your genitals. No fucking required to enter. Must be 18. Some conditions may apply."

 

[forced]

Is there some kind of permission slip I should have signed before I come in here?



Sorry... kidding...

Slips out the back door...

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the difference...

Is there any need to put full Politically Correct Limiting Language in every thing we say?..."WARNING": Non feminist subs, domme hets, dom bi's, maso-sub lesbians....may or may not be affected by this post. Consult your genitals. No fucking required to enter. Must be 18. Some conditions may apply."

Now see, if I used your av would you say I was male bashing?

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the difference...

Now see, if I used your av would you say I was male bashing?

No, I wouldn't. I'd think it was funny. You can grab it if you want, as I'm doing a new one.

Cheers;L

 

[WriterDom]

..What's the difference between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?

The same difference between a women raised in Saudi Arabia Vs a woman raised in the United States. It's all about choice. Or the lack of.

Are women naturally submissive and open to bdsm? Many are, many aren't. I'd rather do my shopping on the labeled side of the aisle. Less confusion on both sides that way.

 

[artful]

..between a vanilla woman and a sub in training? Wondering what you think;
Lance

I think there is no correct way to General Lee answer this question. As with men, women are unique individuals. It could however be an issue to discuss.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: My 10¢ (my 2¢ is free...)

.....But as I've thought about it more, and taken a closer look, I've realized that the women I've been with have all suffered some form of abuse in their life. And that my strength of character is part of what drew them to me. I think you've got the right idea, Lance, that it's not all women, it's just the ones we're drawn to and are drawn to strong men who carry themselves with the aspect of control in their lives.


oh my God .. I couldnt have put it better myself and as someone new to BDSM I gotta say it is so much more fulfilling to ME personally,than when I WAS SOLELY IN A nilla relationship

 

[CatEyes]

I think everyone whether male or female has a tendency to be Dom or sub. Even in vanilla relationships you'll see one partner having more control or say over the other. Sometimes it's the husband and sometime it's the wife. It's not considered a D/s relationship but some form of it is there they just don't see it.

Another thing is Romance Novels. How many women read those things, me included. In the majority of them the male is dominant over the female. The more that comes across the more I like them. So if women are reading those books wouldn't that mean that deep down they have some submissive tendency?

I think the only difference between a vanilla person and a Dom or Sub is how open minded they are to the lifestyle and how much they might have been exposed to it. If they're open minded about it and are exposed to it they'll probably see it within themselves. Which has happened quiet a bit I believe since people have become more aware of things through the internet and don't see BDSM anymore as this sick freaky thing that "those" people do.


CatEyes

 

[Hecate]

Re:

I will be taking the liberty to"re-order" and crop the paragraphs in the original quoted post to put together what I found was belonging together to form a usefull reply, so bear with my "liberty" in this case.

What's the difference between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?

<snip>


...because I haven't touched a so-called vanilla woman in ten years that doesn't secretly yearn for D/s.

<snip>

Likewise, the situations where it doesn't happen naturally are treated by me as evidence that She's not my grrl, bad choice, and on I go....

<snip>

I've simply found that by being my same old confident, assured, dominant self in all situations that the women I meet who are interested in me fall into the s role automatically anyway.

What I gather from the above is that non-sub women are a) not your type or b) are not interested in you in the first place - so this prevents you from further research as to the presence of their innate submissivenes.

Remaining fact: the few (compared to female world population) women you are making out with have a sub tendancy ... uhm, excuse me, but since you are a Dom I guess that is to be expected, right? Otherwise you'd be having one hell of a frustrated love life.

and on a last side note: many people are wa more open to kinky sex these days as thy used to be - do not mistake that for Dominance and submission in any serious TPE / servitude sort of way.

<snip>

All I need to do as a man is see it and create the climate in which it may blossom, in my view.

<snip>

Consequently, after twenty years of feminist dogma clouding things for me as a man at times, I am now more confident in my traditional thinking than ever...which is: the D/s framework is inherantly a male/female social/cultural preset paradigm anyway, so it requires no "work" or "discussion"...you just be it.

<snip>

....to listen, hear and see what is right for me.

that is exactly the point - this is your personal experience and perception of the world that you chose to surround yourself with - no more, no less - subjective view.

What is right for you is SOO wrong for me and the guy next door - don't try the "all women are submissive" stunt on any resonably self assured female at all.

It either may make you find out that in all men there is a crying little boy if you run into a hardcore Domme, in the best of cases you are lessening the gift of submission individually offered to you in a demeaning way by saying that it just a "natural response reflex" and no special gift at all.


On a personal side note: you are making it very hard for me to not get involved into the "politically correct" wording of your post, specially not after it is so testosterone laden in the above quoted paragraph... sorry, but there are indeed chicks out there who will not dig submitting to ANYONE, and I bet the easier pont to get across is that there are even men out there without the innate need to dominate anyone - does that automatically make all non-Dom males subbie boys in training?

So...is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths?

Wondering what you think;
Lance

The commune ground of a vanilla person and a hardcore BDSM person is approximately the same as is between anyones grandma and the Chain Saw Murderer.

At some stage in their lives both will have had the inner urge to aggressively teach someone a lesson, they just chose to give in or not to give in to that urge.

Does that in our inner truth make us all killers? Potential killers? Does it make killing people just for the fun of it an "inner truth" in us that just some gave in to and others didn't?

Does it make everyone a potential nun or monk for having had a religious background education?


If what you are saying is that every human has the chance to possibly potentially become ANYTHING, then you are right. But then you have to acknowledge that inded the inner truth (whatever that may be, but since it has been so liberally used I will not question it now) may be so NOT including any BDSM principals as well.

If our inner truth is whatever we make it be, then indeed, there is a HUGE differencce between a 'nilla person and a BDSM person - it is right for one and wrong for the other at that moment in time or for all their lives. And to assume there is that streak of bdsm personality in everyone is plain arrogant, assuming that we and our way to see the world is the innate, basic, right way. I will not claim that for me and my choice of living!


edited to add that "in training" means there has a conscious choice been made to further a specific trait or skill, and it means there is established some connection with a trainer - alone by that the answer of your intial question is easy: the difference between any woman and a sub in training is the fact of the sub in training getting just that: training, whereas all others don't.