What's the minimum amount of sex you expect from a story?

[andromon]

Done right, these things complement one another.

"Done right" is a tall tale. Anything can be shaped into usefullness.

Having an erotic story that has protracted segments that have nothing to do with sex is called "losing focus". Do you want them to masturbate or do you want your work to have literary merit? Both are cool, but pick one. Wanting to pick both is immature.

@oggbashan
If the whole point is arousal, by whatever device, - it's erotica. If it lists genitalia and their use, it's a subtype of erotica: porn. Gradations of subtlety are irrelevant for the overall definition.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah, I forgot there was a non-erotic category when I asked the question. I'll have to read your story, LC, which one is it?

Here it is if you feel like reading it.

http://www.literotica.com/s/home-is-where-the-heart-is-1

If you do, send me a pm and let me know what you think, good, bad or indifferent.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just like in food, drama is out of place in erotic art. Reader motivation is already fully in place if the sexual tension is properly conveyed.

As for establishing characters, it is very beneficial, but writing a 2000 word novella is counterproductive. It's like if restaurants forced everyone to do a workout before they were allowed to eat.

I disagree. What makes sex hotter? A good build up and motivation for the sex beyond "Wow, lets fuck"

Emotional conflict (drama) is a great way to build the tension. I like stories where when the characters interact you start to think "Wow, I can't wait for this to happen!"

And seeing my last two pieces I wrote were 40k and 33k I guess I am counterproductive.

 

[andromon]

And seeing my last two pieces I wrote were 40k and 33k I guess I am counterproductive.

I have not read your stories. Maybe you're brilliant. "Buildup", though, is a common shorthand for "wandering", "pretending this infodump is development" and "losing focus entirely". Let me quote Vonnegut: "Start as close to the end as possible." In an erotic story, the end is your sexual subject. Get to it ASAP.

I fully agree that "Wow, let's fuck!" will not do. The solution would be writing better sexual content than that.

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry, Andromon, you lose me on just about everything you've posted. Not a problem, though.

 

[lovecraft68]

I have not read your stories. Maybe you're brilliant. "Buildup", though, is a common shorthand for "wandering", "pretending this infodump is development" and "losing focus entirely". Let me quote Vonnegut: "Start as close to the end as possible." In an erotic story, the end is your sexual subject. Get to it ASAP.

I fully agree that "Wow, let's fuck!" will not do. The solution would be writing better sexual content than that.

erotica, in fact all writing in any genre is subject to taste. Many here feel 3 lit pages which is roughly 11,500k is about the longest anyone will read, which according to you is still "wandering"

I average 5-6 pages and although I have gotten a few "lets get to it" comments in general I do fine and that is writing mostly in a notorious stroke category.

And you can quote whoever you want.

At the end of the day perhaps you have a short attention span.

 

[lovecraft68]

How appropriate, just received this comment today

by Anonymous02/09/13
wow

This was a great story. It has a plot and character development besides having hot sex. Loved it!

Guess some people don't mind.

 

[andromon]

And you can quote whoever you want. At the end of the day perhaps you have a short attention span.

Perhaps. Together with Kurt Whoever and William Whothefuckpear.

 

[oggbashan]

Perhaps. Together with Kurt Whoever and William Whothefuckpear.

Amazing!

After just six of your seven posts in total on Literotica you are heading for my very short Ignore list.

What makes you think that your opinions are the only valid ones?

 

[Bramblethorn]

"Done right" is a tall tale. Anything can be shaped into usefullness.

Having an erotic story that has protracted segments that have nothing to do with sex is called "losing focus".

IMHO, a big part of writing erotica is understanding the difference between "nobody fucks in this scene" and "nothing to do with sex".

In my current story I've spent a lot of time and words establishing my narrator's situation: she's a fish out of water, she's insecure and a bit prickly, etc. By humanising her and developing her personality, I make it easier for readers to identify with her, and that makes the sex matter much more.

Do you want them to masturbate or do you want your work to have literary merit? Both are cool, but pick one. Wanting to pick both is immature.

What are your credentials on this?

All I can see of your work is one story with mediocre ratings and a spelling error in the plot summary.

You are of course entitled to your own tastes, and to discuss them here. But when you start telling everybody else they're doing it wrong... well, why should we take you seriously?

If the whole point is arousal, by whatever device, - it's erotica. If it lists genitalia and their use, it's a subtype of erotica: porn. Gradations of subtlety are irrelevant for the overall definition.

Where are you getting these definitions from? Certainly arousal is a crucial part of erotica, but I'm yet to see a definition of erotica that requires the work to have no other purpose.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have not read your stories. Maybe you're brilliant. "Buildup", though, is a common shorthand for "wandering", "pretending this infodump is development" and "losing focus entirely". Let me quote Vonnegut: "Start as close to the end as possible." In an erotic story, the end is your sexual subject. Get to it ASAP.

That quote comes from Vonnegut's "8 Basics of Creative Writing". The other seven points (and the final paragraph) are also worth reading. in particular, just before the one you quoted:

2. Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.
3. Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.
4. Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action.

"Advance the action" is not the only thing that matters, even in porn.

 

[lovecraft68]

Perhaps. Together with Kurt Whoever and William Whothefuckpear.

Well if you would rather accept the opinions of others than develop your own, that its your loss.

 

[lovecraft68]

That quote comes from Vonnegut's "8 Basics of Creative Writing". The other seven points (and the final paragraph) are also worth reading. in particular, just before the one you quoted:



"Advance the action" is not the only thing that matters, even in porn.

Hey, thanks for that link, I have never read that.

 

[PennLady]

But this was the last paragraph :

The greatest American short story writer of my generation was Flannery O’Connor (1925-1964). She broke practically every one of my rules but the first. Great writers tend to do that.

 

[andromon]

and a spelling error in the plot summary.

There are no spelling errors. "Payed" is the correct spelling.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/payed

Where are you getting these definitions from? Certainly arousal is a crucial part of erotica, but I'm yet to see a definition of erotica that requires the work to have no other purpose.

It's either the main point of the story or it isn't. If it isn't, it's not erotica. If it is, get to it.

It works for all genre fiction. If people walk around and then there's a short action scene in the end - is it an action story? It's probably a thriller, not an action. Same with what you refer to as erotica. It's family drama, a thriller, or just slice of life, with some sexual scene in the end. You can call it "buildup", you can call it anything, but it's taking the bulk of the story.

In any case, since you resorted to personal attacks, I will have to disregard your future posts.

@Bramblethorn
Let me put it this way: the better you are, the less words you need to establish those. If you must spends pages upon pages establishing characters in a short story about sex, so be it, but that's nothing to be proud of.

@lovecraft68
I've presented plenty of my own opinions, coupled with my rationale behind every one of them.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There are no spelling errors. "Payed" is the correct spelling.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/payed

Once again, you need to look more carefully at what the authority you're invoking says. In this case, the page you linked states that "payed" is "A past tense and a past participle of pay".

Note well: "a" not "the". At this point it would have been wise to click the link to the root word "pay", which makes things clear:

pay 1 (p)
v. paid (pd), pay·ing, pays
v.tr.
1. To give money to in return for goods or services rendered: pay the cashier.
2. To give (money) in exchange for goods or services: paid four dollars for a hamburger; paid an hourly wage.
3. To discharge or settle (a debt or obligation): paying taxes; paid the bill.
4.
a. To give recompense for; requite: a kindness that cannot be paid back.
b. To give recompense to; reward or punish: I'll pay him back for his insults.
5. To bear (a cost or penalty, for example) in recompense: She paid the price for her unpopular opinions.
6. To yield as a return: a savings plan that paid six percent interest.
7. To afford an advantage to; profit: It paid us to be generous.
8. To give or bestow: paying compliments; paying attention.
9. To make (a visit or call).
10. Past tense and past participle paid or payed (pd) To let out (a line or cable) by slackening.

"Payed" is only correct if you're talking about letting out a line. In any other context, it's wrong. See also: http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2011/04/paid-payed.html

Let me put it this way: the better you are, the less words you need to establish those. If you must spends pages upon pages establishing characters in a short story about sex, so be it, but that's nothing to be proud of.

There's no "must" about it. I do it because it's part of the fun - both for me and for my readers - and because I view erotica like sex: there's no prize for the fastest finish.

Also: it's "fewer", not "less".

 

[lovecraft68]

Where are you getting these definitions from? Certainly arousal is a crucial part of erotica, but I'm yet to see a definition of erotica that requires the work to have no other purpose.

The whole erotca/porn debate has gone on here many times.

My opinion has always been(and not saying this is the right one, its my opinion) is the act can be the same the difference is how did we get there?

If its fucking by the second paragraph with nothing being known of the characters other than their cock and tit size and the dialogue is "oh, baby oh baby oh!" it has my vote as porn.

If the characters are developed and there is a story line and events that build the heat between them then that to me is erotica

I also think that porn and erotica can have the same sex, just because a scene is graphically described does not mean its not erotica, the road that leads to it decides that.

Even in movies you can see porn/erotica. Porn is sites like brazzers and bangbrothers and all the others like it. No plot just incessant(and very fake fucking)

Now check out some of the movies from the last few years. Plot, some actual acting, the men no longer look like Ron Jeremy, but are as hot as the women and there is some tension and build up, but once we reach the act, its still hardcore(albeit more slower and sensual in sites like Viv Thomas, joymii and others)

I am not sure this guy really knows what he is discussing.

But hey, that has never stopped anyone form posting here.

 

[Cinner]

I suspect that the answer is that very little sex is needed if the writer is an otherwise talented storyteller. In my days of being a consumer, rather than a contributor to Lit's stock of stories, I remember being very impressed by the sophisticated writing that I was reading. As I matured here though, I realised that I began reading stories for the plot development, and writing style, and that quite often, I skipped the sex scene after a few sentences, or abandoned the story entirely if it seemed to have too many of these, or if the one long scene on offer began to dominate the story.

It surprised, and disappointed me, how long it took for my plot-and-character-driven stories to find an audience here; and for a long time I thought that it was because I did not have enough sex in my stories. I may have been correct about that, because, along with the scathing critiques, I began to get comments and suggestions aimed at my story-telling, and many people felt that I did not really belong here at Lit, but that I should try to develop my craft to become a more mainstream author. Some persons told me that they were judging my storytelling rather than the erotica in scoring my tales; and I found that when I re-read any of my stories after publication, that I did so also.

So, I agree with the persons who have said that the answer to this question involves an analysis of the type of audience for which one is going. There are some people here who just want sex, others who enjoy literature, and some who seem to appreciate a blend of both. Thankfully, there are enough writers here offering every conceivable kind of story, and eventually, every author will find a niche, and develop a following.

 

[andromon]

@Bramblethorn
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/payed
See example sentences to the right.

"We must remember that those people WERE PAYED TO ACT in a certain way.

Evidently, this taxation MUST BE PAYED BY ALL the financial firms, onshore or ...

These PEOPLE GLADLY PAYED ten or so thousand dollars in their life-time to they ..."
etc.

It's not incorrect. Also, mind: it passed moderation. The editor didn't think it was wrong either, and it was in the tagline.

I do wish, though, that you provided equally articulated, reasonable arguments against my actual points instead of mounting personal attacks like your "who the heck are you, anyway" line. But good job locking in mortal combat with my spelling like that, I appreciate it.

@Cinner
I sure am opening myself to even further flaming with this, but I believe the people that go to Literotica for "literature" are somewhat misguided.

 

[lovecraft68]

@Bramblethorn
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/payed
See example sentences to the right.

"We must remember that those people WERE PAYED TO ACT in a certain way.

Evidently, this taxation MUST BE PAYED BY ALL the financial firms, onshore or ...

These PEOPLE GLADLY PAYED ten or so thousand dollars in their life-time to they ..."
etc.

It's not incorrect. Also, mind: it passed moderation. The editor didn't think it was wrong either, and it was in the tagline.

I do wish, though, that you provided equally articulated, reasonable arguments against my actual points instead of mounting personal attacks like your "who the heck are you, anyway" line. But good job locking in mortal combat with my spelling like that, I appreciate it.

@Cinner
I sure am opening myself to even further flaming with this, but I believe the people that go to Literotica for "literature" are somewhat misguided.

One story with a shitty score and you know what readers are looking for here?

Apparently they are not looking for your poor attempt at a rape fantasy. Funny because I could smell it in your tone you would be a non/con writer, you have the angst of one.

But now let us discuss length and what people want.

Your story is one page, with a shit rating

My one endeavor into that category is 5 pages and a damn sight higher scored than yours.

Would I say mine is better? Not at all, I think its hard to say if one author is better than another.

But I also don;t have to, the readers did it for me. 5 pages, about 18k with a good score and good comments.

Apparently they did not mind the length and build up.

Just because you're a bare bones stroke writer does not mean everyone needs to be.

So instead of arguing here maybe you should be listening to some people who've been doing it longer and have a lot more experience than you do.

 

[Cleophila]

One story with a shitty score and you know what readers are looking for here?

I don't think anyone can really say they have more right to contribute to a discussion like this because they have written more stories, or been given higher scores. Everyone's a reader and everyone's got as much of a valid opinion on what they, as a reader, want.

Having said that, for my part, as a reader and when I write myself, I completely disagree with the below quote.

It's either the main point of the story or it isn't. If it isn't, it's not erotica. If it is, get to it.

It works for all genre fiction. If people walk around and then there's a short action scene in the end - is it an action story? It's probably a thriller, not an action. Same with what you refer to as erotica. It's family drama, a thriller, or just slice of life, with some sexual scene in the end. You can call it "buildup", you can call it anything, but it's taking the bulk of the story.

As I said before, it's precisely because it's the main point of the story that it deserves to be the point that the narrative and characters are built around, not something just thrown in at the beginning.

Equally, all other genre fiction does indeed conform to the same ideas as this genre, i.e. it's not just about non-stop action in an action story or horror in a horror story, you have to actually care about what's going on otherwise there's no tension. Just as a horror story fails to scare if you can't relate to or aren't bothered about what happens to the characters, so an erotic story's not really a turn on in the same situation.

 

[andromon]

One story with a shitty score
Apparently they are not looking for your poor attempt at a rape fantasy.
Funny because I could smell it in your tone you would be a non/con writer,
you have the angst of one.
Your story is one page, with a shit rating
So instead of arguing here maybe you should be listening

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Thank you for your input, but you simply are not intellectually prepared to discuss anything in public.

 

[sr71plt]

The word with the past tense of "paid" and the word with the past tense of "payed" have two different meanings. "Payed" is used in the past tense only for paying out rope (a nautical term) or coating a surface with a waterproofing material.

Spellcheck isn't going to distinguish the difference and the site editor has to pass through so much that she can easily miss such errors as the wrong word usage such as this.

 

[oggbashan]

Repeat post #34

 

[lovecraft68]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Thank you for your input, but you simply are not intellectually prepared to discuss anything in public.

Obviously you're not "intellectually prepared" to do anything but use links to make your points.

Shows you're incapable of voicing any thoughts of your own.

My point is you have very little writing experience on this site and far too little to come on here yammering about what you think readers want to read and making the quite pretentious remark that no one here as any writing ability.

Pretty full of yourself and if this is truly a "hack" site then your quite below average score on hack site says you're right where you belong.