When is it poetry and when is it not?

[My Erotic Trail]

Which poem?

A Romantic Moon,

I slid you a note under the table <grin...OH, is that your knee?

 

[twelveoone]

The Rhyme poems seem to be 'old' style and they seem to be common or perhaps repetitious I should say. I heard 1201 say this a hundred times, "I want something different from the same old rhyming poetry.

Really? A 1201 expert?
And I use end rhyme from time to time. And internal rhyme, often.
Clarification: End Rhyme is a tool, one of a 1,000 tools it has its purpose, if not done well it draws attention to bad verse.
End rhyme got its start as a memory tool in some oral cultures, not all, some use alliteration. Why it is used in English is probably due to the Normans, French speakers and the Elizabethan's insane affinity for classical antiquity. As a part of a spoken language rhyme does not occur as often in English as alot of other languages.


In the current marketplace, rightly or wrongly it is often viewed as a drawback.

My advice: Read 10 times more than you write, not just the poetry, but the therory and the criticism of it. Believe half of it. Than either say something of interest, or say it in an interesting way.

This list of names Maria, threw out, she forgot herself. Angeline, bogusbrig. As a good example take a look at Angeline's Nightengale.

Forget 1201, you will never find him. And it is not easy to follow some of it, if you did.

 

[Angeline]

<snip>

My advice: Read 10 times more than you write, not just the poetry, but the therory and the criticism of it. Believe half of it. Than either say something of interest, or say it in an interesting way.

<snip>

Excellent advice! I learn more from reading poetry and writings about poetry than I do from writing it myself. Left to my own devices I tend to develop bad habits; reading others' poems keeps me on track.

 

[WickedEve]

Excellent advice! I learn more from reading poetry and writings about poetry than I do from writing it myself. Left to my own devices I tend to develop bad habits; reading others' poems keeps me on track.

I haven't done much reading or writing poetry, lately, and I'm getting rusty. So yeah, it's good advice to read as much as possible--my new year's poetry resolution.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

I read more poetry then I do stories on lit. Thanks for the names and the advice

 

[Rybka]

Red,
Since I started all of this, I want to give you the assignment of distilling all the words posted on this thread (when it slows down), to advice you can use, and then posting it here.

The best advice I have seen so far is to continue to read and write. - I have often found about three times as much reading to writing to be a good ratio as long as the muse (Yoo-Hoo! Where are you?) is with you. - And don't be ashamed or unwilling to put flashes/ideas/unfinished poems away for awhile to ripen. You do have talent. Don't let me or anyone else inhibit you. Write as you will, but please feel free (but not ordered) to try any and all styles of writing that catch your fancy.

To borrow a phrase, I think you have a voice that deserves to sing in more than one octave.

Regards, Rybka

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

Red,
Since I started all of this, I want to give you the assignment of distilling all the words posted on this thread (when it slows down), to advice you can use, and then posting it here.

The best advice I have seen so far is to continue to read and write. - I have often found about three times as much reading to writing to be a good ratio as long as the muse (Yoo-Hoo! Where are you?) is with you. - And don't be ashamed or unwilling to put flashes/ideas/unfinished poems away for awhile to ripen. You do have talent. Don't let me or anyone else inhibit you. Write as you will, but please feel free (but not ordered) to try any and all styles of writing that catch your fancy.

To borrow a phrase, I think you have a voice that deserves to sing in more than one octave.

Regards, Rybka

Thank you...

Both for your comments and your suggestion of starting the thread. I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and views.

I don't think I could write anyway but the way I feel... if it comes out in rhyme then that is where it is supposed to be. I'll read other styles and who knows when I sit down to write... maybe they won't be all rhyme

Thank you for borrowing the phrase ~ It was a very nice phrase to read.

~ Red

 

[ewopper]

Which poem?

If you look back through history, poets have always begrudgingly insulted other poets, I am just awed at the imagery that streams from the minds of other poets. I get mixed emotions ranging from awe to disappointment to jealousy to envy. There's constructive criticism which will help you to better express yourself, then there's assinine criticism by those who's very nature is critical. you get the option to finally decide. Happy New Year

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

If you look back through history, poets have always begrudgingly insulted other poets, I am just awed at the imagery that streams from the minds of other poets. I get mixed emotions ranging from awe to disappointment to jealousy to envy. There's constructive criticism which will help you to better express yourself, then there's assinine criticism by those who's very nature is critical. you get the option to finally decide. Happy New Year

Happy New Year to you also.

I haven't felt insulted at all. I take the negative read it, think about it briefly and then if I feel it wasn't constructive but made to make another person feel stronger about themselves, then I allow it to diminish to where it belongs... in the trash.

If it is done nicely... I'll think about it, possibly coming to the same conclusion or not. Usually it is not, because I can't imagine forcing anything in my writing... it either flows and makes sense to me and someone else or it doesn't.

The assinine criticism is the one that many people let bury them... I don't let that happen. I may for a moment be a bit hurt, but then I just say oh well... I like it

 

[Maria2394]

Really? A 1201 expert?
And I use end rhyme from time to time. And internal rhyme, often.
Clarification: End Rhyme is a tool, one of a 1,000 tools it has its purpose, if not done well it draws attention to bad verse.
End rhyme got its start as a memory tool in some oral cultures, not all, some use alliteration. Why it is used in English is probably due to the Normans, French speakers and the Elizabethan's insane affinity for classical antiquity. As a part of a spoken language rhyme does not occur as often in English as alot of other languages.


In the current marketplace, rightly or wrongly it is often viewed as a drawback.

My advice: Read 10 times more than you write, not just the poetry, but the therory and the criticism of it. Believe half of it. Than either say something of interest, or say it in an interesting way.

This list of names Maria, threw out, she forgot herself. Angeline, bogusbrig. As a good example take a look at Angeline's Nightengale.

Forget 1201, you will never find him. And it is not easy to follow some of it, if you did.

Liar would tell you that Maria was so obsessed over umm and damn's poetry that is why she forget Angeline and bogusbrig and tons of others. She is only a student and so enamoured with so many of you. Yall know who you are.

Red, you WILL evolve, there is no way that you cannot not live and feel and write and not evolve. I read my old stuff and laugh and cry at the same time and realize that someday what I have finally decided to like about my own work will be laughable in another year

You be you, write your heart feed your soul and your work, your passion, will grow

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

Liar would tell you that Maria was so obsessed over umm and damn's poetry that is why she forget Angeline and bogusbrig and tons of others. She is only a student and so enamoured with so many of you. Yall know who you are.

Red, you WILL evolve, there is no way that you cannot not live and feel and write and not evolve. I read my old stuff and laugh and cry at the same time and realize that someday what I have finally decided to like about my own work will be laughable in another year

You be you, write your heart feed your soul and your work, your passion, will grow

... I've read my work... I depress myself


Thanks for your comments

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

Hmm...

Okay... Now I sat down and just wrote off the top of my head like some suggested. I didn't hurt myself and I didn't collapse from not rhymeing *was worried about that weren't you*

I like it... what do you folks think?*bites lip*



Sitting here alone my body broken
pain washing over me, consuming
clawing, breaking over the waves of
cruel words and broken promises.
Flowing fast now tears of heartache
lost hope, all consuming loss.
Gone is the love, the passion, the fury
of lust and want.
Cascading down from the heavens
gifts abound fall like rain upon
an upturned face.
Covering, coating me, swelling over my skin
absorbing, welcoming, healing again.
Graceful eyes watching, taking me far
carrying me higher, ever reaching, ever grasping.
The air holds me, keeps me safe,
feeling complete, never letting go
knowing the end is in sight.
Light shines, the dark is gone
freedom soars ahead, never looking back
never doubting, emptying the pain
locking it shut, never seeing it again...
Free.

 

[Rybka]

Upon first read. . .

I like it! - But of course you can always alter it upon rereadng, if you ever should want to!

If it were me, (at first read) here is how I might have said it. Please note that is "my" take, and on first read without much thinking. - I think you did good!

"Sitting here alone with body broken
pain washing over
consuming, clawing,
waves breaking over
cruel words and promises broken.

Tears of heartache flow fast
all consuming, hope is lost.
Love is gone, with the passion, fury
of lust and want.

Gifts abound, cascading down from the heavens
falling like rain upon an upturned face.
Covering, coating, washing my skin
absorbing, welcoming, healing again.
Graceful eyes watch, taking me far
ever reaching, grasping, carrying me higher.

The air holds and keeps me safe
feeling complete, never letting go
knowing the end is in sight.
Light shines and the dark is gone
freedom soars ahead, no looking back

Never doubt, empty the pain
lock it shut, never see it again.

Free"

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

I like it! - But of course you can always alter it upon rereadng, if you ever should want to!

If it were me, (at first read) here is how I might have said it. Please note that is "my" take, and on first read without much thinking. - I think you did good!

"Sitting here alone with body broken
pain washing over
consuming, clawing,
waves breaking over
cruel words and promises broken.

Tears of heartache flow fast
all consuming, hope is lost.
Love is gone, with the passion, fury
of lust and want.

Gifts abound, cascading down from the heavens
falling like rain upon an upturned face.
Covering, coating, washing my skin
absorbing, welcoming, healing again.
Graceful eyes watch, taking me far
ever reaching, grasping, carrying me higher.

The air holds and keeps me safe
feeling complete, never letting go
knowing the end is in sight.
Light shines and the dark is gone
freedom soars ahead, no looking back

Never doubt, empty the pain
lock it shut, never see it again.

Free"

Thank you very much. I like that too.

It was fun to write.

I'll play around with more here and there. I do appreciate you taking the time to look it over and comment.

 

[TheRainMan]

I like it! -

.... - I think you did good!

So do I.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

So do I.

Thank you too

 

[Liar]

Sitting here alone my body broken
pain washing over me, consuming
clawing, breaking over the waves of
cruel words and broken promises.
Flowing fast now tears of heartache
lost hope, all consuming loss.
Gone is the love, the passion, the fury
of lust and want.
Cascading down from the heavens
gifts abound fall like rain upon
an upturned face.
Covering, coating me, swelling over my skin
absorbing, welcoming, healing again.
Graceful eyes watching, taking me far
carrying me higher, ever reaching, ever grasping.
The air holds me, keeps me safe,
feeling complete, never letting go
knowing the end is in sight.
Light shines, the dark is gone
freedom soars ahead, never looking back
never doubting, emptying the pain
locking it shut, never seeing it again...
Free.

That is definitely going places, Red.

May I suggest a little writing experiment, based on that? This was a look of you sitting there, from the inside of your own mind. Everything is there, what you think, how you feel, and so on.

Try describing that person, sitting there, from a watcher's point of view. Try telling the scene from the outside. What does that kind scene look like? What might someone else read into it? Try to aviod telling us about feelings and abstract ideas. Describe how they look in the face and stance that the watcher sees.

Not good not worse then your way, just different. Just a way to turn things around and try new perspectives. If it doesn't work, then at least you have tried.And maybe learned a trick or two for your next poem.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

That is definitely going places, Red.

May I suggest a little writing experiment, based on that? This was a look of you sitting there, from the inside of your own mind. Everything is there, what you think, how you feel, and so on.

Try describing that person, sitting there, from a watcher's point of view. Try telling the scene from the outside. What does that kind scene look like? What might someone else read into it? Try to aviod telling us about feelings and abstract ideas. Describe how they look in the face and stance that the watcher sees.

Not good not worse then your way, just different. Just a way to turn things around and try new perspectives. If it doesn't work, then at least you have tried.And maybe learned a trick or two for your next poem.

Gottcha

I do that with my stories. I try to see it as the reader would. That is why they are long

I'll play and see what happens over time

Thank you

 

[Liar]

Gottcha

I do that with my stories. I try to see it as the reader would. That is why they are long

I'll play and see what happens over time

Thank you

And then, try to slim that description down to haiku length. Then we're reeeally cookin'. (as if I could ever do that)

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

And then, try to slim that description down to haiku length. Then we're reeeally cookin'. (as if I could ever do that)

I can't write a short story... lol, I've tried. I think I have 2 or 3 that are only one page on lit.

 

[champagne1982]

Hmm...

Okay... Now I sat down and just wrote off the top of my head like some suggested. I didn't hurt myself and I didn't collapse from not rhymeing *was worried about that weren't you*

I like it... what do you folks think?*bites lip*



Sitting here alone my body broken
pain washing over me, consuming
clawing, breaking over the waves of
cruel words and broken promises.
Flowing fast now tears of heartache
lost hope, all consuming loss.
Gone is the love, the passion, the fury
of lust and want.
Cascading down from the heavens
gifts abound fall like rain upon
an upturned face.
Covering, coating me, swelling over my skin
absorbing, welcoming, healing again.
Graceful eyes watching, taking me far
carrying me higher, ever reaching, ever grasping.
The air holds me, keeps me safe,
feeling complete, never letting go
knowing the end is in sight.
Light shines, the dark is gone
freedom soars ahead, never looking back
never doubting, emptying the pain
locking it shut, never seeing it again...
Free.

This is a wonderful passion piece. Now, if I may?

ger·und (jrnd)
n.

1. In Latin, a noun derived from a verb and having all case forms except the nominative.
2. In other languages, a verbal noun analogous to the Latin gerund, such as the English form ending in -ing when used as a noun, as in singing in We admired the choir's singing.

Sometimes, the ing forms can sound lilting as they are read but I feel I should caution their use, as they also can sound very nasal and sing-song-y, adding an element to the poem of immaturity. In something as deep as your writing, I don't think you want to detract from the impact of your emotions.

The verb forms are easily edited and if you do, I feel your verse would hold me tighter in your grip as I read. This was very valuable advice given me when I was first posting to this forum. In my opinion, it has helped make my writing (both prose and poetry) tighter and easier to read.

You should take this advice as my personal view only and discard or use it as you see fit. Thanks for sharing your writing on the board. I hope I've offered you something of value.

sincerely,​

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

This is a wonderful passion piece. Now, if I may?



Sometimes, the ing forms can sound lilting as they are read but I feel I should caution their use, as they also can sound very nasal and sing-song-y, adding an element to the poem of immaturity. In something as deep as your writing, I don't think you want to detract from the impact of your emotions.

The verb forms are easily edited and if you do, I feel your verse would hold me tighter in your grip as I read. This was very valuable advice given me when I was first posting to this forum. In my opinion, it has helped make my writing (both prose and poetry) tighter and easier to read.

You should take this advice as my personal view only and discard or use it as you see fit. Thanks for sharing your writing on the board. I hope I've offered you something of value.

sincerely,​

I never thought of the adverb use of "ing"

I just heard from my editor during the middle of last week to curb away from "ing" because it wasn't always necessary. It didn't occur to me to consider that in poetry also. hmmm...

I thank you very much for your comments and suggestions. I will continue to try new things and by all means, continue to offer comments and such. How does one learn or try if no one helps?

All comments that are put forth in a kind manner are of value. It is the ones that are placed to harm and hurt that are not worth the stroke of the key that typed them or the stream of ink that wrote them.

Thanks ~ Red

 

[Rybka]

Haiku + 1

And then, try to slim that description down to haiku length. Then we're reeeally cookin'. (as if I could ever do that)

Red, maybe you can start from this:

"Sitting body broken
pain has washed all love away
God, please lift me higher!"​

Regards, Rybka

PS: Haiku in English does not have to be 5-7-5 in syllable count. That is just a misconception and now a tradition. More important is a seasonal reference (which is lacking here in my example) and a break/change in thought, either at the end of line one or two.

 

[Liar]

PS: Haiku in English does not have to be 5-7-5 in syllable count. That is just a misconception and now a tradition. More important is a seasonal reference (which is lacking here in my example) and a break/change in thought, either at the end of line one or two.

I heard it said recently that an ideal haiku should contain references to the following:

- a season
- a color
- a triangle
- a circle
- a square

...and a break in the last line


something like this:

tulips and blanket season (whenever tulips grow...spring?) and square (blanket)
sandwich on a plate triangle (the sammich) and circle (the plate)
snack for a quick fox color (foxes are red, right) and break (at least i think it is one)

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

Oh goodness.. lol... out of the frying pan and into the fire

I will have to look around at more stuff before I even attempt that. I like you're example Rybka. Thank you.

And the same with what you did with each part Liar.


It took me a minute to remember Haiku but once you mentioned seasons I remembered the style. I see that I'm not as ill equipped as I thought.