where did you first hear the terms for BDSM?

[where]

What I am interested in is the prevalence of "Dom/ sub" when people talk about BDSM, and what people think those terms mean-- and how the terms color their expectations of the lifestyle.

I'm new to fetlife and it seems that there, D/s is more marginalised.

but anyway in answer to the OP it was in lit chat and then the oasis ning group.

I feel like a square peg in this round hole though.

 

[eastern sun]

I'd love to see the history on this, too.

I first heard of M/s and s/m in the 1970's San Francisco leather scene, referring to master/slave and sado/masochism. The clubs my husband and I visited were s&m clubs.

I had seen the BDSM acronym around, but the first regular usage of dom/sub I heard was here on the internet. I also remember reading "Different Loving," which seemed to define the terms (to me) where each pair in the acronym - bondage/discipline, dominance/submission, and sado/masochism - were given separate sections. I was a big fan of Polly Peachum's submissivewomenspeak. In my own head, the romanticization of power exchange began when I read her essays; but it also led me straight into M/s which I had only known as a short-term contractual relationship in the leather scene - and hadn't applied directly to a hetero marriage.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm new to fetlife and it seems that there, D/s is more marginalised.

but anyway in answer to the OP it was in lit chat and then the oasis ning group.

I feel like a square peg in this round hole though.

I hear you.

 

[callinectes2]

I am not really sure where I first heard the terms BDSM and D/s but I do know it was years before the internet existed. It wasn't until I read some erotic literature about 7 years ago that I learned what the acronyms stood for.

With regards to the labels, I generally think of dom and sub as absolute orientations within a committed relationship. I tend to think of the terms top and bottom as either people who play with each other but are not committed or as folks that aren't rigid about their roles. Bear in mind that other than my PYL I have very little contact with others that share an interest in BDSM. I live in a small town and the vast majority of my acquaintances would flip if they knew the nature of our relationship. Since going to clubs isn't our style we really as isolated. As such, my labels really don't mean much in the real world.

 

[rekane]

I first heard the terms "dominatrix" and "slave" on Phil Donahue many years ago. The guest was a woman who worked in corporate america, but at home she was a dominatrix who had two slaves.

That show planted a little fantasy seed for me. I envisioned myself as the bitch in charge, giving orders.

However, when I was recently asked to submit, it resonated so strongly with me. I was more than happy to give over.

I did not learn the other terms/vernacular until I was poking around on Lit.

Top and bottom seem to be more fluid to me, not as rigid, or formal, as dom and sub. I think that "dom" and "sub" used together are a meme that rapidly convey bdsm, whereas "top" and "bottom" might need further explanation.

 

[WriterDom]

I'm voting when the heterosexual scene started to notice one another enough to become its own scene.

Probably much more of a hetero thing. I took WriterDom in 96 or 97 and very few people online were talking about tops and bottoms. On the websites I was visiting anyway. Here at lit too from the beginning it was pretty much that way. There were always some tops and bottoms around.

It's not uncommon for gay couples to identify as tops or bottoms in relationships that aren't exactly bdsm to begin with. At least that's the way the lesbian I dated explained it to me. Flame her, not me. Well, she isn't around lit anymore.

To me, I find the word "bottom" degrading. Worse than slave. A slave with no value. And Top makes me think of a circus for some reason. But whatever floats your boat. I'm not a fan of PYL/pyl either.

 

[Etoile]

Hoo-boy, if I remembered when I learned about this...damn, I have NO idea. I agree that the split came from the hetero scene's growth, as Netz said. But damn if I remembered where I first heard about it. I got into my first kinky relationship 10 or 11 years ago, but I knew what it was before that...no idea where I got it from though.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Probably much more of a hetero thing. I took WriterDom in 96 or 97 and very few people online were talking about tops and bottoms. On the websites I was visiting anyway. Here at lit too from the beginning it was pretty much that way. There were always some tops and bottoms around.

It's not uncommon for gay couples to identify as tops or bottoms in relationships that aren't exactly bdsm to begin with. At least that's the way the lesbian I dated explained it to me. Flame her, not me. Well, she isn't around lit anymore.

no flames, she's correct.

To me, I find the word "bottom" degrading. Worse than slave. A slave with no value. And Top makes me think of a circus for some reason. But whatever floats your boat. I'm not a fan of PYL/pyl either.

Interesting. From my POV, "bottom" is absolutely judgment free. The word has nothing whatsoever to do with value, it describes a preference.

 

[Etoile]

Top and bottom in gay male non-bdsm relationships simply refers to pitching and catching. Do you put your penis in somebody else's ass, or have somebody else's penis put in your ass?

 

[MatthewJudeBrown]

Yes, "top" and "bottom" tend to mean just that you like to be the doer or the done-to, respectively. Which is why their use in the gay scene extends way further. Their use there, I think, reflects the freeing of preference for sexual role from the masculine/feminine divide that it historically had in both male and female gay scenes, where (in imitation of heterosexual relationships and sex, which of course were the only easy role-models available) if you were masculine-presented you automatically took on the "top" role, and if you were more feminine-presented you were automatically the "bottom".

I'm not sure why "bottom" would give off such a feeling of degradation to WriterDom, but we all bring so much personal baggage to questions of language ...

 

[Netzach]

Probably much more of a hetero thing. I took WriterDom in 96 or 97 and very few people online were talking about tops and bottoms. On the websites I was visiting anyway. Here at lit too from the beginning it was pretty much that way. There were always some tops and bottoms around.

It's not uncommon for gay couples to identify as tops or bottoms in relationships that aren't exactly bdsm to begin with. At least that's the way the lesbian I dated explained it to me. Flame her, not me. Well, she isn't around lit anymore.

To me, I find the word "bottom" degrading. Worse than slave. A slave with no value. And Top makes me think of a circus for some reason. But whatever floats your boat. I'm not a fan of PYL/pyl either.

The class I'm talking about was one I was in in 95. I had never been on the internet, just a schoolwide intranet. I didn't get online really till 97 I think and the scene was filled with fantasy vampires and gorean tarnsmen and other assorted flights of wha? for me.

 

[Netzach]

Their use there, I think, reflects the freeing of preference for sexual role from the masculine/feminine divide that it historically had in both male and female gay scenes, where (in imitation of heterosexual relationships and sex, which of course were the only easy role-models available) if you were masculine-presented you automatically took on the "top" role, and if you were more feminine-presented you were automatically the "bottom".

I don't agree that butch/femme and butch/queen are simply pale imitations of heterosexuality, not even in the heart of the 50's - and I've never observed a strict relationship between femininity and being on the bottom. Some of the most sadistic dominants I've met have actually been extremely effeminate gay men and lipstick femme lesbians.

I socially affiliate with the latter, myself.

 

[00Syd]

To me, I find the word "bottom" degrading. Worse than slave. A slave with no value. And Top makes me think of a circus for some reason. But whatever floats your boat. I'm not a fan of PYL/pyl either.

Huh. I've never encountered that opinion before.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Huh. I've never encountered that opinion before.

Yeah, I'm surprised too.

 

[MatthewJudeBrown]

I don't think that butch/femme and butch/queen are pale imitations of heterosexuality. I do think that there was, at one time, a lot more of an assumption that sexual roles would follow those identities -- certainly, that's something I have heard from those old enough to have been in the scene way earlier than I. I'm 37, which isn't old enough to go back that far.

Of course, that (and my reading) isn't necessarily a representative picture of reality -- at least, not outside the local reality of the people I've heard from.

The assumption that butch/femme or butch/queen automatically implies top/bottom respectively is where the imitation of heterosexual roles is (in my opinion & thought), and I'm glad that has receded.

 

[JMohegan]

Bottom of the barrel..... bottom of the class.... bottom of the rankings.... bottom of the heap..... bottom of the capitalist pyramid.....

Of course that's a degrading word.

 

[Netzach]

Bottom of the barrel..... bottom of the class.... bottom of the rankings.... bottom of the heap..... bottom of the capitalist pyramid.....

Of course that's a degrading word.

For the record I do not feel particularly debased just because I'm lying down and some girl is grinding furiously on top of my leg.

 

[JMohegan]

For the record I do not feel particularly debased just because I'm lying down and some girl is grinding furiously on top of my leg.

I'm not talking about sexual positioning or the kink label, I'm talking about the word!

I have no idea when or where I first heard it in a sexual context. But I do remember thinking - what brain surgeon thought THAT up?

 

[MatthewJudeBrown]

I think that it just proves that different peoples' minds word-associate differently.

 

[JMohegan]

I think that it just proves that different peoples' minds word-associate differently.

Apparently.

Other than preferred batting position in baseball innings, what positive associations do you have with that word?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I've referred to myself as a bottom with a nurturing fetish before.

I have no qualms with the word itself, but I don't like it's links to to the term 'passive' cos that word rankles me.

I don't see it as degrading, or lesser, but I can see how some people would. Having come across all this online, I also very much agree that Dom and sub are the 'romantic' terms, and thus have become the umbrella ones. Porn isn't helping either. Little of what I see there, while hot, is actual submission, yet they call it that, to reel in the punters.

 

[rekane]

Apparently.

Other than preferred batting position in baseball innings, what positive associations do you have with that word?

Bottom's up?

 

[MatthewJudeBrown]

Apparently.

Other than preferred batting position in baseball innings, what positive associations do you have with that word?

Well, being a Brit by origin, the ''first'' association is with the ass, and there's nothing wrong with a good behind.

 

[JMohegan]

The worst term they embraced was "Master," because it's so fucking pretentious. (Though, somewhat ironically, its overuse now makes it sound pedestrian.)

"Slave" is obnoxious because of the comparison to the real, non-consensual ones. "Submissive" just sounds weak and simpering. "Dominant" of course sounds strong and forceful, but "Dom" just sounds totally ridiculous.

 

[Duncan1981]

I am wondering after reading this..Does age play a part in how the terms are viewed? (As in I am 28, we most if not all my peers I have met have only used the terms Dom & sub & switch.) Hmmm wonder if it has changed through generations.