Where is the love in BDSM?

[ethereal~minx]

your writing both provokes and inspires *smiles*
i came back to edit for i do realize there are fundamental differences in sex and love~~ *sighing* and i realized my slant was to justify my most recent insight or awareness (to this very moment) that the purpose ? or meaning ?hmmmm? of life *thinking thinking thinking......* is ultimately joy
and the only way to find that joy is to be and see and create more love~~~ live love in everything you do~~~ follow your joy
your heart
aghhhhh, that's where all this came from *slow rising blush tinting the smiling cheeks*
<deleted waaaaaay tooo much>
will post my personal babblings in my e-minx thread *laughing@self*

 

[FungiUg]

I think love is important in a long term BDSM relationship, just as it is in a regular long term nilla relationship. Agree or disagree?

PBW

Long term? Sure, for me. For others, I would hesitate to say. I can imagine a long term relationship without love (marrying for money is an example), and I assume it's also possible to do the same with a D/s relationship.

Love is such an emotionally charged word though. I prefer words like trust, care, respect. It's easy for me to concentrate on caring and respecting people I have relationships with (whether they be family, friends, lovers, submissives, pets).

Love on the other hand, for me, is a much rarer beast. All of my relationships have love in one form or another, but being "in love" takes time, energy, and the right person.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Long term? Sure, for me. For others, I would hesitate to say. I can imagine a long term relationship without love (marrying for money is an example), and I assume it's also possible to do the same with a D/s relationship.

Love is such an emotionally charged word though. I prefer words like . It's easy for me to concentrate on caring and respecting people I have relationships with (whether they be family, friends, lovers, submissives, pets).

Love on the other hand, for me, is a much rarer beast. All of my relationships have love in one form or another, but being "in love" takes time, energy, and the right person.

I get you. I love my sub dearly...if you take that to mean 'trust, care for, and respect'.

 

[psiberzerker]

That's the problem with bandying the L word about, nobody agrees on the meaning. Hell, it's hartd enough to define to yourself, so I never know if they mean it, much less the same way I do.
My personal definition is "Accepting someone's desires over your own," but that covers a lot of submissives. It works for me, because I don't submit. I see myself putting someone before me, selflessly, and I must be in love.

 

[Pure]

PB said,


That's the problem with bandying the L word about, nobody agrees on the meaning. Hell, it's hartd enough to define to yourself, so I never know if they mean it, much less the same way I do.

My personal definition is "Accepting someone's desires over your own," but that covers a lot of submissives. It works for me, because I don't submit. I see myself putting someone before me, selflessly, and I must be in love.

I like the idea of a definition in terms of putting another's desires ahead of ones own. And you state the problem-- kinds of submission and sacrifice seem to fit, as in the actions of a nasty dictator's (who shall remain nameless) most loyal bodyguards.

Perhaps a way out is to say that if I, having a self of my worth, and of the usual appropriateness of furthering my interests, am putting the interests of another equal to or ahead of my own, then I love that person. It might also be noted that often this result will not be viewed as such [B ahead of A] in that I, in such case, will commonly _identify_ my interests with those of the loved one [B=A].

Again, though, I think the point of _adult_ love is that one starts with an initial sense of self and of that self's interest's and desires, as distinct from the other's. THEN comes the identification or 'merging.' We do NOT want to say, though, in the case of a baby with no sense of mom's independent self and desires, that the baby doesn't love mom. Baby is merged from the get-go.

J.

 

[Pure]

PB said,


That's the problem with bandying the L word about, nobody agrees on the meaning. Hell, it's hartd enough to define to yourself, so I never know if they mean it, much less the same way I do.

My personal definition is "Accepting someone's desires over your own," but that covers a lot of submissives. It works for me, because I don't submit. I see myself putting someone before me, selflessly, and I must be in love.

I like the idea of a definition in terms of putting another's desires ahead of ones own. And you state the problem-- kinds of submission and sacrifice seem to fit, as in the actions of a nasty dictator's (who shall remain nameless) most loyal bodyguards.

Perhaps a way out is to say that if I, having a self of my worth, and of the usual appropriateness of furthering my interests, am putting the interests of another equal to or ahead of my own, then I love that person. It might also be noted that often this result will not be viewed as such [B ahead of A] in that I, in such case, will commonly _identify_ my interests with those of the loved one [B=A].

Again, though, I think the point of _adult_ love is that one starts with an initial sense of self and of that self's interest's and desires, as distinct from the other's. THEN comes the identification or 'merging.' We do NOT want to say, though, in the case of a baby with no sense of mom's independent self and desires, that the baby doesn't love mom. Baby is merged from the get-go.

J.

 

[ownedsubgal]

bdsm to me is about activities. and love is not about activities. i could engage in bdsm activities with anyone, love does not play a factor. but there is a huge difference between bdsm, and D/s. i could not be satisfied in a D/s relationship if mutual, romantic love were not the basis of the relationship. and i define love as intense affection for and emotional need for another.

it's true sometimes that an intense love for one another can put some harsher bdsm activities to the backburner for a while, but if it is a solid relationship, the power dynamic will not be effected, and it will always be clear who's boss. whipping me 24/7 is not what makes my Master a Master.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: *stomping like a child* but Shadowsdream

I have answered this in PM..and you have My permission to copy and paste My response into this thread if it so pleases you.

Shadowsdream

...when they are in love with each other and the Domination softens while the submission deepens...well you see the conflict...confusion...loss rather than gain. ...
When the relationship ends the Dominant wonders why but the submissive knows exactly why. The relationship ...QUOTE]

ohhh this brings me confusion or sadness or < searching for words > Shadowsdream, I have read many of your posts and you are one that I most admire here~~ to me you exude Truth, a Divine Truth with little, (if any) ego.. You know your true Spirit and love is in everything that you write... ok, that said---

i have read exactly what you wrote above~~ love weakens the relationship (basically)
but. what about this? i've been applying this to my life~~ all conflict is in the mind... conflict is opportunity to see things from a higher perspective... conflict is the ego --fear ..

~darkness always vanishes in the light~right?
conflict (darkness, ego, fear) ALWAYS submits when love (light, selflessness, trust) is the co-creater

hmmm~~ it makes sense to me. there is another aspect of this however that i can see that may play out where maybe either one of the two (i think) have NOT yet surrendered their will to LOVE... then maybe the Dominant would choose to not speak in these terms because this is a little too deep?, too simple? i don't know~ too easily misunderstood? many people have issues with the very word 'love'... it is very powerful and very confused...

if you shoose, i would value your insight
~Love to ALL~

 

[ethereal~minx]

with permission from Shadowsdream

Thank you Shadowsdream for responding~~i have not yet had a chance to reeeally get into this deeply but i did want to share your words here *smiles*


i haven't quite gotten this whole cut&paste/clip stuff down yet but here you all go~~
Re: love weakening the relationship~ but does it HAVE to be true?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shadowsdream wrote on 05-06-2003 10:57 PM:
Good morning...and please feel comfortable PMing any questions you may have that I may have an answer to or an opinion on.
~love~ is a word of change...
~love~ is a word of Power
~love~ is a word of mixed messages

In a BDSM relationship that BEGINS with ~love~ love can be the glue that binds the relationship and the strength that holds the doors open to go deeper and darker into places angels fear to tread.
In a relationship that began with BDSM and developed into ~love~ that developement is often just on one side at least in the beginning. The submissive is generally the first of the partners to fall in love. They see themselves in ~love~with the Master/Mistress but are often in ~love~with the Domination. They will fall in ~love~with each Dominant that comes into their life before they realize this.
Dominants often have a sixth sense about this and hold back until they see that the ~love~is really about the personalities and not the acts.
BUT...that having been said...
A submissive in ~love~ wants more Domination, harder, more attention, constant. Dominants and in particular new Dominants (which I consider less than 2 years) will often slowly slide back into an almost vanilla relationship with less and less Domination. They can begin to see the relationship as boyfriend/girlfriend...then in that case the ~love~has destroyed the relationship...with change and loneliness and jealousy.
It is normal in the real world of Domination for the Dominants to receive a great deal of attention and the submissives very little attention..which could make a submissive need more attention from their Dominant. If the submissive has been given a solid base of understanding their value and safe place at the feet of their Dominant they feel pride in the attention others give to their Mistress or Master and understand that that attention touches them as well..they are the extention of their Dominant.
One must be careful not to add *obligation* for attention and *jealousy* for insecurity for both will eventually bore a (real) (yes I know it is not a good word but there is no other) Dominant into drifting away emotionally.
For *obligation* and *jealousy* change the natural flow of Domination and submission.
So..yes..I must say that ~love~can easily destroy the relationship if these small basics are not understood. But it doesn't need to.
My slave and I love each other with all O/our hearts and souls. I must conciously be aware of not putting the love before My Domination. My role has become much more difficult because of the love because I must be more concious that I do not lessen My firmness or control.
I have not altered My lifestyle or trainings in any way due to My relationship with him.

~darkness always vanishes in the light~right?
conflict (darkness, ego, fear) ALWAYS submits when love (light, selflessness, trust) is the co-creater
couldn't the two together CHOOSE to strengthen and grow through the LOVE that threatens to weaken their very joyous/mutually satisfying, potentially transformative ~~relationship? [I/]

In a vanilla relationship the above could apply beautifully..if both partners had come to the same conclusions...BUT I would like you to look at the single word here ~transformation~and ask yourself if that is what you really want...because if it is...you are not looking for a BDSM relationship but you are looking for a ~love~ relationship. Also ~darkness always vanishes in the light~ is what you should not be wanting in a BDSM relationship...it is the darkness that sets it apart from the vanilla world.
ALWAYS ~submits~when love is the co-creator..is what I have been saying...no not always..but often...which means you now have both SUBMITTING and no one Dominating...so the Dom/me will no longer have a purpose and the relationship is no longer the magic it was.
I am sure this answer is more confusing than helpful but it is the best I can do before My first cup of coffee is finished ~~smile~~ please read it carefully and if you wish to clip it out and re-ask specific questions please feel free to do so.
M Marlene

OOPs I just now saw the last part of the message with the words ~both surrender their will[I/]~even though you put it in the love context...it does still obligate the Dominant to surrender...you must be very careful not to try to direct this relationship into the direction you wish it to go..or you will be looking at the end of it very soon.
I hope that you will find a good balance and will be watching your journey....it is a hard journey but when the magic is there it is a heavenly hell!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ethereal~minx wrote on 05-06-2003 11:56 PM:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ethereal~minx wrote on 05-06-2003 03:52 PM:
i posted this on the (Where's the Love in BDSM) thread but feared you would not notice it...i've added only a little bit so it is a little different here. i hope you don't mind the private message.


*stomping like a child* but Shadowsdream
(Shadowsdream) ...when they are in love with each other and the Domination softens while the submission deepens...well you see the conflict...confusion...loss rather than gain. ...[B/]

ohhh this brings me confusion or sadness or <searching for words> [Shadowsdream, I have read many of your posts and you are one person that I most admire here~~ to me you exude Truth, a Divine Truth with little, (if any) ego.. You know your true Spirit and love is in everything that you write... ok, that said---

i have read exactly what you wrote above~~ love weakens the relationship (basically)
but. what about this? i've been applying this to my life~~ all conflict is in the mind... conflict is opportunity to see things from a higher perspective... conflict is the ego --fear ..

~darkness always vanishes in the light~right?
conflict (darkness, ego, fear) ALWAYS submits when love (light, selflessness, trust) is the co-creater
couldn't the two together CHOOSE to strengthen and grow through the LOVE that threatens to weaken their very joyous/mutually satisfying, potentially transformative ~~relationship?

hmmm~~ it makes sense to me. there is another aspect of this however that i can see that may play out where maybe either one of the two (i think) have NOT yet surrendered their will to LOVE... then maybe the Dominant would choose to not speak in these terms because this is a little too deep?, too simple? i don't know~ too easily misunderstood? many people have issues with the very word 'love'... it is very powerful and very confused...

if you shoose, i would value your insight
~Love to ALL~

 

[sub princess]

Re: with permission from Shadowsdream

Thank you Shadowsdream for responding~~i have not yet had a chance to reeeally get into this deeply but i did want to share your words here *smiles*


i haven't quite gotten this whole cut&paste/clip stuff down yet but here you all go~~

Shadowsdream wrote on 05-06-2003 10:57 PM:
Good morning...and please feel comfortable PMing any questions you may have that I may have an answer to or an opinion on.
~love~ is a word of change...
~love~ is a word of Power
~love~ is a word of mixed messages

In a BDSM relationship that BEGINS with ~love~ love can be the glue that binds the relationship and the strength that holds the doors open to go deeper and darker into places angels fear to tread.
In a relationship that began with BDSM and developed into ~love~ that developement is often just on one side at least in the beginning. The submissive is generally the first of the partners to fall in love. They see themselves in ~love~with the Master/Mistress but are often in ~love~with the Domination. They will fall in ~love~with each Dominant that comes into their life before they realize this.
Dominants often have a sixth sense about this and hold back until they see that the ~love~is really about the personalities and not the acts.
BUT...that having been said...
A submissive in ~love~ wants more Domination, harder, more attention, constant. Dominants and in particular new Dominants (which I consider less than 2 years) will often slowly slide back into an almost vanilla relationship with less and less Domination. They can begin to see the relationship as boyfriend/girlfriend...then in that case the ~love~has destroyed the relationship...with change and loneliness and jealousy.
It is normal in the real world of Domination for the Dominants to receive a great deal of attention and the submissives very little attention..which could make a submissive need more attention from their Dominant. If the submissive has been given a solid base of understanding their value and safe place at the feet of their Dominant they feel pride in the attention others give to their Mistress or Master and understand that that attention touches them as well..they are the extention of their Dominant.
One must be careful not to add *obligation* for attention and *jealousy* for insecurity for both will eventually bore a (real) (yes I know it is not a good word but there is no other) Dominant into drifting away emotionally.
For *obligation* and *jealousy* change the natural flow of Domination and submission.
So..yes..I must say that ~love~can easily destroy the relationship if these small basics are not understood. But it doesn't need to.
My slave and I love each other with all O/our hearts and souls. I must conciously be aware of not putting the love before My Domination. My role has become much more difficult because of the love because I must be more concious that I do not lessen My firmness or control.
I have not altered My lifestyle or trainings in any way due to My relationship with him.

~darkness always vanishes in the light~right?
conflict (darkness, ego, fear) ALWAYS submits when love (light, selflessness, trust) is the co-creater
couldn't the two together CHOOSE to strengthen and grow through the LOVE that threatens to weaken their very joyous/mutually satisfying, potentially transformative ~~relationship?

In a vanilla relationship the above could apply beautifully..if both partners had come to the same conclusions...BUT I would like you to look at the single word here ~transformation~and ask yourself if that is what you really want...because if it is...you are not looking for a BDSM relationship but you are looking for a ~love~ relationship. Also ~darkness always vanishes in the light~ is what you should not be wanting in a BDSM relationship...it is the darkness that sets it apart from the vanilla world.
ALWAYS ~submits~when love is the co-creator..is what I have been saying...no not always..but often...which means you now have both SUBMITTING and no one Dominating...so the Dom/me will no longer have a purpose and the relationship is no longer the magic it was.
I am sure this answer is more confusing than helpful but it is the best I can do before My first cup of coffee is finished ~~smile~~ please read it carefully and if you wish to clip it out and re-ask specific questions please feel free to do so.
M Marlene

OOPs I just now saw the last part of the message with the words ~both surrender their will~even though you put it in the love context...it does still obligate the Dominant to surrender...you must be very careful not to try to direct this relationship into the direction you wish it to go..or you will be looking at the end of it very soon.
I hope that you will find a good balance and will be watching your journey....it is a hard journey but when the magic is there it is a heavenly hell!

Wow.... i just wanted to say how beautifully put that was Shadowsdream.

Recently i have been looking at the love that i feel for my Master, seeing that i not only "love" Him, but that i am in fact "in love" with Him. This was and still is a surprise to me.... a wonderful, delightful surprise, for as Eb put it earlier, i never believed in the idea of "in love." i love Him for His dominance, His strength, His power and courage to be who He is, but first and foremost i love, and am in love with Him the Man, the Person.

O/our relationship is ever changing, ever growing, becoming more than i ever dreamed possible. The trust i have, the respect and compassion are stronger and more pure than i could have ever imagined. Because of this, and the love i feel, i can submit to Him with my mind and body, heart and soul..... something i am not sure i could do otherwise. The love that i feel in return from Him allows me to trust in Him completely (something i have never been able to do before, even 'nilla).

bunny said "i have always believed in the stupid fairy tale of some dom in shining leather will come and whisk me away to his palace dungeon where we live happily ever after."..... and though for me that image has changed a little (as i have changed a lot), i now believe that i have so much more than just a fairy tale.

Again Your words are inspiring Shadowsdream, Thank You...

 

[FungiUg]

I don't think it matters how you define love, because it's such an emotionally laden term. Everyone already has their own instinctive definition.

But my feelings are: does BDSM require love? (assuming love to be the "in-love" mushy romantic stuff.) No.

Does BDSM require care, trust, responsibility, honesty? Yes.

Is BDSM better with love? Well... that would depend on the couple. I can see for some people it would improve things, for others it would do the reverse. Love can deepen passion, but it could also reduce the "harshness" of control that a submissive craves, leading to frustration and resentment.

By the way, love is not necessarily recriprocal. Just because you love someone doesn't mean they do you. And one sided love (in our out of D/s) is always awkward. So this can be another way that "love" can interfere with a D/s relationship.

So... no, I don't think there's any requirement for love in BDSM. But I do think that many people will combine the two.

 

[ethereal~minx]

wow~ i have so many thoughts on this, i'm having difficulty focusing on just one at any one time~~~

and it seems in trying to edit my pm to post i've messed it up even more~~~ grrr.

and the more i stay here the more i delve deeper into my psyche & i_really_need_to_get_back_to_work_SO!

send me "grounding" thoughts everyO/one : )~~ pretty please because i seem to be rising above the ground with every strike of the keyboard~~~

(love talk does this to me)

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

<snip>I don't think it matters how you define love, because it's such an emotionally laden term. Everyone already has their own instinctive definition.

Does BDSM require care, trust, responsibility, honesty? Yes
<snip>


To me, these are the the core precepts of "love". Caring. Trust. Responsibility for one another (power exchange). Honesty. I would add mutual Respect. Again, we are talking, my definition of course. I try not to deal in flaming, mad, jump-in-where-angels-fear-to-tread passion anymore, because it seems to just blow up in my face. I want to take the long slow trip, with all it's attendant possibilities.

~anelize

 

[FungiUg]

Yeah, I normally put respect in that mix as well. Forgot. Guilty. Do I get punished? *evil grin*

Um... no, I don't think those are the same as being "in love" (whatever that is.) At the moment, there is one woman in my life who I am "in love" with. I can't tell you what that consists of, only that I know it's true.

How do I know it's true? Well, "actions speak louder than words", and simply by the fact that when I got into BDSM, I was very much unwilling to let her go. It's been a struggle to have the freedom to explore my Dominant side and to try and integrate that back into our relationship (she's also Dominant in character... and if I ever want a good giggle, I try dominating her!)

There are other women that I have played with sexually while I have been with her, D/s and non-D/s. I always like to know my sexual partners as people, I respect them, I care about them, and so on. But am I "in love" with them? Nope.

Again, I know everyone is different. I can distinguish sexual play and love. Others can't. Being non-monogamous works for me, it wouldn't work for others.

 

[sexlord99]

question

Does any body have pics of them in bondage