Who the hell approved this story?

[ElectricBlue]

Yes it is. As I said, different punctuation marks have different purposes for a damn reason. This is English-Literature 1 0 fucking 1.

You said that the only other way to designate dialogue is to use the character's name. That is simply not true. You will find many instances where dialogue uses other techniques to designate who the speaker is, that are still grammatically correct.

"You're late." Zoey said.

"I'm sorry, Mistress Zoey." Aaron said.

Both of these dialogue stubs are incorrect.

They should read

"You're late," Zoey said.

"I'm sorry, Mistress Zoey," Aaron said.

'Zoey said' and 'Aaron said' are both dialogue tags, so the preceding dialogue sentence needs a comma, not a full stop. This is Grammar 101, but I don't think you're accepting it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

1. The only other way dialogue is separated from narration is with "character name:" not -.

Incorrect. For example, Alan Paton's celebrated novel "Cry, The Beloved Country" uses dashes for punctuation:

The small child ran importantly to the wood-and-iron church
with the letter in her hand. Next to the church was a house and
she knocked timidly on the door. The Reverend Stephen
Kumalo looked up from the table where he was writing, and
he called. Come in.

The small child opened the door, carefully like one who is
afraid to open carelessly the door of so important a house, and
stepped timidly in.

- I bring a letter, umfundisi.

- A letter, eh? Where did you get it, my child?

-From the store, umfundisi. The white man asked me to
bring it to you.

- That was good of you. Go well, small one.

It is non-standard, and AFAICT very uncommon in English-language publishing, but not unheard of. I found it jarring when I first read the book, but I still got through it.

Punctuation marks have their assigned purpose for a reason. This is literature 101.

The thing about invoking "Literature 101" (should be capitalised, as the name of a course) is that "101" courses are the beginning of learning, not the culmination of it. Sometimes the information you really need isn't taught until the 102 course, or much later.

2. If your story not being approved discourages you as a writer, then you shouldn't be a writer. New writers aren't going to learn if they're given a free pass which such major mistakes.

???

This isn't a couple of spelling errors, this is separation of dialogue and narration in a way that isn't understandable in the slightest.

Oh come now. I can't say it reads easily to me, but "not understandable in the slightest" is exaggerating things.

 

[Bramblethorn]

"I'm sorry, Mistress Zoey." can be a full sentence. "The bus got stopped because..." had not been interrupted can be a full sentence. In fact it makes sense for them to be 2 different sentences if there's narration in between like how I wrote it.

But "Aaron said" is not a full sentence. It's a dialogue tag attached to that "I'm sorry, Mistress Zoey". Dialogue tags modify the punctuation of the speech they attach to.

Without the tag, you could indeed write '"I'm sorry, Mistress Zoey."' But with the tag, it becomes '"I'm sorry, Mistress Zoey," Aaron said.'

At least two of the people telling you this are professional editors, but you don't have to take our word for it. Read a professionally published book and see how it handles this.

 

[iloveskyrim1]

'Zoey said' and 'Aaron said' are both dialogue tags, so the preceding dialogue sentence needs a comma, not a full stop. This is Grammar 101, but I don't think you're accepting it.

That is not true in the slightest. I don't know who told you that, but they definitely weren't an English teacher.

 

[iloveskyrim1]

But "Aaron said" is not a full sentence. It's a dialogue tag attached to that "I'm sorry, Mistress Zoey". Dialogue tags modify the punctuation of the speech they attach to.

Dialogue and narration aren't supposed to be in the same sentence.

 

[KeithD]

Dialogue and narration aren't supposed to be in the same sentence.

I think I'll decide to think you are just putting it on with us to be cute.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Dialogue and narration aren't supposed to be in the same sentence.

Oh no, guess all these authors and their editors were wrong then. You'd better write to their publishers and let them know.


Jane Austen, "Pride and Prejudice":



Margaret Atwood, "The Handmaid's Tale":



J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Return of the King":


As I already suggested, you might want to look at some books and check how it's actually done rather than continuing to embarrass yourself by insisting that you're right and the rest of the world is wrong.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Meanwhile, a couple more instances of famous English-language books that used the dash-punctuation format:

James Joyce, "Ulysses" (though AWD already mentioned Joyce):



Irvine Welsh, "Trainspotting" (apologies for the rotation, capped from a sideways PDF)


I'm told Dick's "A Scanner Darkly" also used it but I can't lay my hands on a good text just now; I think that's enough examples to be going on with.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That is not true in the slightest. I don't know who told you that, but they definitely weren't an English teacher.

FFS.

Type "dialogue punctuation rules" into any search engine, start at the top and work down.

"I don't think you'll ever see this construct." He said.

 

[iloveskyrim1]

Meanwhile, a couple more instances of famous English-language books that used the dash-punctuation format:

James Joyce, "Ulysses" (though AWD already mentioned Joyce):

View attachment 2184807

Irvine Welsh, "Trainspotting" (apologies for the rotation, capped from a sideways PDF)
View attachment 2184808

I'm told Dick's "A Scanner Darkly" also used it but I can't lay my hands on a good text just now; I think that's enough examples to be going on with.

And there's a reason it's not grammatically correct anymore.

Tony and Chuck entered the room.

"It smells like flowers." Chuck said.

That's literally easier for the audience to understand than...

Tony and Chuck entered the room.

-It smells like flowers.

You can't do "Chuck said." with -.

-Let's fucking go, he snapped desperately.

Am I supposed to assume "he snapped desperately." isn't part of the dialogue? Because it's literally written as if it is. That's why - doesn't work. That's why quotation marks are used. This isn't rocket science.

 

[KeithD]

Am I supposed to assume "he snapped desperately." isn't part of the dialogue? Because it's literally written as if it is. That's why - doesn't work. That's why quotation marks are used. This isn't rocket science.

I think the problem might be that you've been snorting rocket fuel.

Luckily, your position is so zany that I don't think there's any danger of anyone following you down that blind alley.

 

[iloveskyrim1]

I think the problem might be that you've been snorting rocket fuel.

Luckily, your position is so zany that I don't think there's any danger of anyone following you down that blind alley.

Wow, you certainly destroyed my argument with that one. I'm totally convinced that no distinction between dialogue and narration is A-Okay. Your charisma stat must be over a trillion.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And there's a reason it's not grammatically correct anymore.

Nope. That particular rule hasn't changed. The forum is being finicky and not letting me post images just now, but I found examples of the same style in Ruthanna Emrys' "Deep Roots" (pub. 2018), Cat Valente's "Space Opera" (also 2018), and Tamsyn Muir's "Nona the Ninth", published just last month. (Edit: looks like the image from Nona did attach after all.)

Meanwhile, you still haven't provided so much as a single example of a professionally published book which punctuates dialogue tags the way you're claiming is correct.

Tony and Chuck entered the room.

"It smells like flowers." Chuck said.

That's literally easier for the audience to understand than...

Tony and Chuck entered the room.

-It smells like flowers.

Earlier you were making statements about what the convention in English grammar supposedly is. Now you're arguing about why it would be better if it followed your version. That's a different conversation. As it happens though, your version is bad for clarity too. Consider:

"I don't like fish." John sighed.

Under your version, it's ambiguous whether John is saying "I don't like fish" in a sighing kind of way, or whether he said "I don't like fish" and then sighed, or whether somebody else said "I don't like fish" and John is sighing in response.

But under the standard English punctuation this is completely unambiguous:

"I don't like fish," John sighed.

With the comma, "John sighed" can only be a dialogue tag: John is saying this in a sighing kind of way. If it doesn't have that comma then it's not being used as a dialogue tag.

You can't do "Chuck said." with -.

-Let's fucking go, he snapped desperately.

Am I supposed to assume "he snapped desperately." isn't part of the dialogue? Because it's literally written as if it is. That's why - doesn't work. That's why quotation marks are used. This isn't rocket science.

Yes, you are supposed to assume that. A very successful author wrote it that way, and a very large publishing company published it that way, and a ton of people read it and understood it... and it looks like you did too, for all your complaints.

You're not required to like it. I'm not fond of that style either! But to claim that this doesn't happen in English, even after seeing examples of it happening in major English works, puts you at odds with reality.

 

[KeithD]

Wow, you certainly destroyed my argument with that one. I'm totally convinced that no distinction between dialogue and narration is A-Okay. Your charisma stat must be over a trillion.

Be as convinced as you wish. As long as no one else follows you, no harm done. And I don't see anyone else falling for it.

 

[iloveskyrim1]

Meanwhile, you still haven't provided so much as a single example of a professionally published book which punctuates dialogue tags the way you're claiming is correct.

It's called the English language.

Earlier you were making statements about what the convention in English grammar supposedly is. Now you're arguing about why it would be better if it followed your version. That's a different conversation. As it happens though, your version is bad for clarity too. Consider:

No, I was explaining why the official accepted way is the way it is.

Under your version, it's ambiguous whether John is saying "I don't like fish" in a sighing kind of way, or whether he said "I don't like fish" and then sighed, or whether somebody else said "I don't like fish" and John is sighing in response.

It came right after "I don't like fish." Yes, it means he said it in a sigh. If it was "John said." instead, would that mean John said something after he said he didn't like fish? No. It doesn't.

With the comma, "John sighed" can only be a dialogue tag: John is saying this in a sighing kind of way. If it doesn't have that comma then it's not being used as a dialogue tag.

Quotation marks are designed to quote people, hence the name quotation mark. They're for quoting what people say, and last I checked, sentences aren't supposed to end with a comma.

Yes, you are supposed to assume that. A very successful author wrote it that way, and a very large publishing company published it that way, and a ton of people read it and understood it... and it looks like you did too, for all your complaints.

By that logic, why even use proper grammar? Why even use punctuation Whyevenhaveaspacebetweenthewords? You see how confusing and stupid that is? That's basically what you're saying is okay. Well it's not okay. It's dumb and confusing.

You are the goddamn result of a failed education system.

 

[Omenainen]

I’m sure we’ll next hear from iloveskyrim1 when they’re mightily confused as to why their next story is rejected for dialog punctuation.

 

[Winter_Fare]

This thread had GOT to be a troll. Either that, or the sensitive soul is in agony from cognitive dissonance and should take a couple of paracetamol and lie down for a bit before posting again.

 

[sixfoot4]

You said that the only other way to designate dialogue is to use the character's name. That is simply not true. You will find many instances where dialogue uses other techniques to designate who the speaker is, that are still grammatically correct.


Both of these dialogue stubs are incorrect.

They should read


'Zoey said' and 'Aaron said' are both dialogue tags, so the preceding dialogue sentence needs a comma, not a full stop. This is Grammar 101, but I don't think you're accepting it.

In my dialogues, I just put the sentence in quotation marks and drop down a line. Let the reader do some work.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This thread had GOT to be a troll. Either that, or the sensitive soul is in agony from cognitive dissonance and should take a couple of paracetamol and lie down for a bit before posting again.

After taking a look at the story, I'm starting to suspect he's playing out a humiliation fetish. Surely nobody can really be this stupid?

 

[ElectricBlue]

This thread had GOT to be a troll. Either that, or the sensitive soul is in agony from cognitive dissonance and should take a couple of paracetamol and lie down for a bit before posting again.

When someone says something incorrect in such an "authoritative" way (given that grammar has well established rules and conventions that have been around for decades if not a century or so) I'll very often go look at their work credentials. Call me petty, but this instance is oh so very typical. The examples quoted above are straight from his story - I didn't bother looking for more mistakes, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some.

This guy fails Grammar 101 and is spruiking grammatical nonsense. It's turned into a popcorn thread with many people shaking their heads, but the fact remains, grammar has well established rules and conventions, and any aspiring writer should know what they are. It's Writing 101 - Basic Grammar.

 

[DanDraper]

It doesn't matter how the dialogue is presented. As long as the story follows the guidelines that's all that matters tot he admin's.
After that it's just up to the reader to decide if the story is good or not.


...

 

[iloveskyrim1]

I’m sure we’ll next hear from iloveskyrim1 when they’re mightily confused as to why their next story is rejected for dialog punctuation.

Difference is I don't go out of my way to make my stories impossible to read.

 

[iloveskyrim1]

This thread had GOT to be a troll. Either that, or the sensitive soul is in agony from cognitive dissonance and should take a couple of paracetamol and lie down for a bit before posting again.

It's called knowing basic writing. Maybe you should try it sometime.

 

[iloveskyrim1]

When someone says something incorrect in such an "authoritative" way (given that grammar has well established rules and conventions that have been around for decades if not a century or so) I'll very often go look at their work credentials. Call me petty, but this instance is oh so very typical. The examples quoted above are straight from his story - I didn't bother looking for more mistakes, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some.

My "mistake" was ending a sentence with a period. That's what you're supposed to do.

This guy fails Grammar 101 and is spruiking grammatical nonsense. It's turned into a popcorn thread with many people shaking their heads, but the fact remains, grammar has well established rules and conventions, and any aspiring writer should know what they are. It's Writing 101 - Basic Grammar.

Ironic considering you take issue with me ending sentences with a period the way you're supposed to. Did you even go to school?

 

[iloveskyrim1]

It doesn't matter how the dialogue is presented. As long as the story follows the guidelines that's all that matters tot he admin's.
After that it's just up to the reader to decide if the story is good or not.


...

Except it does matter. Grammar rules are there for the sake of the reader. Is it acceptable to not have spaces between the words? No.