Who's the Dom?

[Lalah]

Since I know I can sometimes be a little difficult for those who aren't very familiar with me and my ways of thinking to figure out:

"...they control it in partnership, with the pyl setting boundaries (and expanding them if he/she wishes) and the PYL determining what happens within those boundaries."

I like that. Too many Masters seem to go around bragging about how they're the one important and that really turns me off the BDSM communities. It's nice to see someone acknowledging the importance of both sides.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I like that. Too many Masters seem to go around bragging about how they're the one important and that really turns me off the BDSM communities. It's nice to see someone acknowledging the importance of both sides.

I think you'll find that most of the real-life PYLs in real-life relationships will acknowledge that a partnership is just that, and that it requires the work and input of both/all parties. I don't know how much experience you have with the culture (sorry - I don't like "lifestyle" to describe WIITWD; it implies choice, whereas "culture" gives a strong implication/inference that it is hardwired within us, like heterosexuality, homosexuality, etc.), but if you can attend a few munches in your area, I think you'll find that people in most of these groups are much more grounded than the majority of the "online-only" folks, because they've lived it.

ETA: This is NOT intended as a slap at those who do online-only; merely an acknowledgment that most who have not lived this culture real-life for an extended period don't have the experience of doing it day to day to day to day, and thus can - and often do - have a rose-colored glasses view of how things work in real life.

 

[snowbyte]

I like this metaphor. I may borrow it sometime.

I also use a 'tour' metaphor: My sub is on a journey through BDSMLand and I am the tour guide. There will be limits on where the tour can go based on the sub's physical or emotional capabilities. A debilitating fear of heights, for instance, takes rock climbing of the list of things to do. If this is the sub's first time on this kind of tour, it's all new. My job is to figure out what the safest path is on the journey so that she eventually gains the confidence needed to do things that would previously have been impossible.

 

[snowbyte]

most who have not lived this culture real-life for an extended period don't have the experience of doing it day to day to day to day, and thus can - and often do - have a rose-colored glasses view of how things work in real life.

I dropped out of the "culture" a half dozen years before coming back 4Q07. My memory was gradually being filtered with those rose-colored glasses. The thing that was filtered very early is the amount of responsibility PYL has in the relationship, especially with someone new to this world. I had forgotten about the emotional weight of this responsibility. I had also forgotten about the time necessary, for instance, to buy, clean, test, and store gear. I only remembered the floggings and other fun activities until I was actually faced with engaging in them again.

tl;dr The rose-colored glasses are gone again!

 

[Lalah]

I think you'll find that most of the real-life PYLs in real-life relationships will acknowledge that a partnership is just that, and that it requires the work and input of both/all parties. I don't know how much experience you have with the culture (sorry - I don't like "lifestyle" to describe WIITWD; it implies choice, whereas "culture" gives a strong implication/inference that it is hardwired within us, like heterosexuality, homosexuality, etc.), but if you can attend a few munches in your area, I think you'll find that people in most of these groups are much more grounded than the majority of the "online-only" folks, because they've lived it.

ETA: This is NOT intended as a slap at those who do online-only; merely an acknowledgment that most who have not lived this culture real-life for an extended period don't have the experience of doing it day to day to day to day, and thus can - and often do - have a rose-colored glasses view of how things work in real life.

Interesting, it's nice to know there are more sensible people like you around. Even in this very forum, which seem more mature than most, I have seen plenty of arrogant masters who sounds like think being the master make then the most important partner in the relationship. It's a relief to know it's not like that in real life.

I could never go to a gathering; I don't like strangers and especially groups due to what happened to me. Most likely sparks would ends up flying. I'm only comfortable around close friends.

 

[RJMasters]

Ranther than re-invent the wheel, I just ripped this off of one of my Yahoo groups that was having a discussion about use of safewords, topping from the bottom, etc. I posted it earlier today infact. Though the subject, safewords and topping from the bottom are not directly the topic at hand, the use of safewords, and the illusion of control they provide, is very much on topic. My word will be in DarkRed the OP's from the mail list in Navy. So, without further ado...

Hi folks,

What follows is my opinion only, it's not law, fact, or written in stone tablets anywhere (even if _I_ think it should be! *grin*). Feel free to agree or disagree. Use what works for you and yours, and discard the rest. Now... On to the points...

First off, let's de-mystify the mythical "safeword". Just what _IS_ this safeword people keep talking about? A "safeword" is a way to communicate "Something is wrong" or "I'm in trouble" or "Hey, Dumbass, watch the wrap!". It's using a codeword as a way to communicate, it's nothing more, it's nothing less.

Here is a controversial thought for some of you. Safewords do not stop a scene. A safeword never has.

Let me repeat that thought with emphasis:
SAFEWORDS DO NOT STOP A SCENE.

The Top _hearing_ the safeword (or seeing a safe signal) stops the scene IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. Any Top, in any scene, anytime, anyplace, anywhere, has that choice to abide by the safeword or to ignore it and continue the scene. ALWAYS. They are the one who is doing, and the Top is in control of the scene.

The bottom, if not bound in someway, has the option of physical removing themselves from the scene if the Top chooses not to stop. But never, Never, NEVER _NEVER_ make the mistake of thinking that just because someone agrees to use a "safeword" means that they are safe players, that you will be safe playing with them, or that you will not come to any harm or that you will have your limits respected.

A safeword is only as "safe" as the person hearing it and honoring it.

This also bears repeating.

A safeword is only as safe as the person hearing it and _HONORING_ it.

Verstanze?

The idea behind the "safeword" is that it's a way to get the Top's attention using a word that would not _normally_ be said to indicate there is a problem or that you want the scene to stop. Hello, some folks _want_ to keep playing when they are screaming "STOP! Don't DO THAT! OMG THAT HURTS!" etc. The "safeword" is there to let the Top know that something outside the bounds of the scene is going on and that something needs to be done/changed/corrected to get things back on track. Or that perhaps it's time for the scene to come to a screeching halt for physical or emotional reasons.

It is incumbent on ALL PARTIES (Top(s), bottom(s), helpers, etc) to take responsibility for good, two-way communication during the scene. They need to communicate means and desired outcomes of the scene before play, establish where/when/_IF_ consent ends, and how to communicate physical or emotional distress that is NOT PART OF THE SCENE. If you want to use a safeword to do that, great.

Personally, I find it more useful to get "Hey! The rope on my right wrist is too tight, it's cutting off feeling..." or "I've got a cramp in my calf..." or "OMG, OMG, OMG, I was raped when I was 17 and I can see his face..." Telling me what's wrong from the jump seems better than getting my attention with "YELLOW!"

"Yellow? What's wrong?"

"The rope on my right wrist is too tight, it's cutting off feeling..."

Now that we've established where my thoughts are coming from on the subject...

X X <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@...> wrote:
>
> Some people talk about playing without safewords...
> when have you done this and/or under what circumstances
> would you do this?

I have, and will continue to play without safewords, with long standing play partners. These are people I know and trust, people who will give me feedback and input during the scene, people who I know take their responsibility for their own care and safety as seriously as I do. They know when enough is enough and will tell me. I know their bodies and their reactions well enough to know when the body is saying "yes, Yes, YES!" even when their mouth is saying "No, No, No!"

> What is the attraction to giving up a safeword?

Giving up a safeword is a trust and communication issue. When you have established the requisite trust, to _KNOW_ without a doubt that the Top you are playing with will not harm you (Harm, in my book, meaning "damaging someone to the point of requiring outside assistance to heal, or repair, or inflicing marks, wounds, or other things that will attract unnecessary, unagreed to, unwanted attention from family, friends, co-workers or law enforcement), when you surrender that safeword, you are saying "I trust you with my life". Literally.

That's heady, powerful stuff.

Do NOT give up a safeword to that hot hunky guy with a whip you just met at the dungeon... And for Pete's sake, don't give it up to some CyberDom you've been chatting with online for the last 12 months but you've never met face to face before. Helllllooooooo! Reality check here! If you've never seen them play, never met them face to face, all you know is what they've told you over the internet or phone or in letters and it could ALL be a pack of lies. That level of trust is EARNED through words and deeds, until they do the doing, hold off on giving them that much trust.

>
> If you do give it up, and something gets out of hand,
> what recourse do you have, physically, emotionally, socially?

Depends on the scene, doesn't it? If you are bound and gagged and it gets out of hand, you are, quite literally, at the mercy and desires of the Top. You are along for the ride until he or she decides to stop.

If you are not bound, you can move, dodge, run, attempt to escape. If dorknuts doesn't take a hint, when you get off the cross that should pretty well signal "scene over".

But BE A FREAKING ADULT, ACCEPT YOUR OWN RESPONSIBILITY FOR PUTTING YOURSELF THERE. Think of it like a white water rafting trip. Once you get in the little rubber boat, you are going where the river takes you. You hope and pray that your Guide will get you through to the end safe and sound, and you do what they say and paddle like crazy and enjoy the ride. You do NOT blame the Guide for taking you down that crazy ass river... YOU put yourself in the rubber boat and helped push it out into the river.

There should be aftercare, if that was negotiated as part of the deal. There may be medical expenses and if the Top is responsible for the injuries then they should be willing to help with the healing and repairs, after all.

If the Top was negligent, or willful, in causing harm, then by all means feel free to seek civil damages if they don't willingly accept their share of the responsibility, and if they are so outside the box that you feel criminal charges are necessary then please notify the police. If a certain bottom hadn't gone to the police regarding her encounter with John Edward Robinson, "slavemaster" might still be luring victims into his web of deceit and killing them.

It's a case-by-case situation. What were the circumstances? What was agreed to? How, _exactly_, did things go to far or out of control? Was the scene and what happened actually agreed to, and is the bottom now suffering from "after-scene-remorse"?

If the bottom is feeling guilt and/or regret for having done the scene in the first place, that doesn't make it the Top's problem to deal with, doesn't mean the Top was out of control or that the boundaries of the scene were exceeded. "Well the Top _should_ have known better..." Bullshit. Last time I checked, we Tops were not equipped with the mind reading option installed.

> When you see someone playing, and they say they don't
> use a safeword, what is your first reaction?
>

Literally, it's "So what?" Then I look at the circumstances. Experience level of the Top and bottom (as individuals and with one another), kind of scene, how good are they at communicating with one another, etc. Again, it's case-by-case. What works for one situation, one scene, may not work for another.

> If you were the dungeon monitor, would you allow such play?
>

Again, depends on the circumstances. I certainly would not rule it out as a general practice. In my home, "mayday" and "red" are the house safewords. NO ONE plays in my house without being given those safewords. It is not because I don't trust the players with one another (though that may be true) but because as the host, _I_ need to know if there is a physical or emotional situation that needs immediate care/attention. The TOP can use the house safewords to summon assistance if needed, just as much as the bottom can.

> Even if y'all are superslave and UberDom, is there a
> time when using a common safeword is useful to communicate
> real distress, even if your agreement is that the dominant
> doesn't have to respect it? Or does that skate the edge of
> topping from the bottom?

Okay, another hot button phrase here "Topping from the bottom". Asking for something is not "topping for the bottom". Telling your Top what you like, enjoy, want more of, need, don't like, don't need, don't want, telling them what is happening to your body or going on in your head, or what you are feeling is not "topping from the bottom". It's _COMMUNICATION_! ! !

Hello! Ding-ding-ding! May I have your attention please? When the bottom is saying "Harder please!" or "I have a cramp!" or "I'd really like that chocolate cake with vanilla ice cream for dessert." the bottom is NOT "topping from the bottom". That is giving your Top/Dom/Owner information, and the Top may then choose to respond however they wish. They may hit harder, or softer, or rub the cramp, or beat it with a cane, or tell you "Sorry, but that cake and ice cream aren't on the menu tonight."

Topping from the bottom is the use of deception, manipulation, emotional blackmail, witholding information, or outright lying, on the part of the bottom, to coerce or trick the Top into doing or giving the bottom something the bottom wants. ASKING is communication. LYING is topping from the bottom.

If information is being presented by the bottom and it allows the Top to make an informed decision, it's a good thing. IF mis-information is being presented, or information is being witheld so that that Top is NOT making an informed decision, THAT's topping from the bottom.

If the bottom calls out a safeword in the midst of a scene where it was agreed that no safeword was to be used, helloooooo, something is going seriously wrong. Either the bottom is in real distress, or maybe that "no safeword" the Top understood wasn't what the bottom was actually agreeing to. In any case, agreed to or not, the TOP makes the decision to respect that safeword or not. Whether it's been agreed to use one or not use one.

Now if the bottom was just calling out a safeword to see if it would be honored after agreeing to a no safeword scene, THAT's topping from the bottom. It's all about the circumstances.

> What about those who take saying "no, no, please don't
> do that" and go a step further, asking you to ignore
> anything that sounds like a safeword? Do you choose to
> play with them?

Consentual non-consent is a hot, exciting area to play in. It is not for novice players. It's edgey, it's good. For me, it depends on who's asking and why and how well we negotiate beforehand before I would agree to play without a way for them to call the scene (it would not have to be a "safeword" per se). And I'm STILL going to use _MY_ judgement on when to call the scene. They may be hollering "Green! Green you bastard! HARDER!" And I may decide "That's enough, any more and I'll harm them..."

You jump in the rubber boat and the ride is over when the ride is over...

>
> Just curious....books tell you how things are ~supposed~
> to happen, but when you start moving outside of those, the
> rules get a lot more vague....
>

Indeed they do. Books lay out a foundation upon which to build. As a Top or bottom, you educate yourself, you learn the basics, you learn more advanced techniques and when you reach a certain level you are beyond what you can learn from a book or a presenter or mentor. You are in the realm of "on your own" and you get to play and adjust on the fly.

The Book says "Don't hit the kidney area". Well duh. Because there are idjits out there that don't have the sense God (or Goddess) gave a housefly, who would use a heavy cane or flogger and beat someone on the kidneys and do internal damage if they were not told "Don't hit the kidney area." But with experience and judgement, a good player can learn what they can and can't use to hit your kidney area all night and not do any harm.

The bottoms depend on the judgement of the Tops who are wielding the toys to know where, and when, and how hard to play, how tight to bind, how long to play... The TOPS on the other hand, are depending on the bottoms to tell us "I can't take anymore", "I need it harder", "That last swat took me out of my happy place", "This scene isn't working for me tonight"...

This is a dance, with two (or more) people. There's a reason we call it a Power EXCHANGE, folks. It ain't all one sided. The Tops are getting something they want/need, the bottoms are getting something they want and need too. If a Top breaks their toy then the toy stop playing with them. Break enough of them and the word will get around and no one will agree to be your toy...

Of course, on the flip side of that... Happy toys spread the word and you will find lots of toys volunteering to be played with.

Ding-ding-ding.

Class dismissed. *grin*

YIK,
- Geoff

Hope some of you find that useful in figuring out who, exactly, is in control of the scene.

Yeah long quote but damn this is like the best ever fusion of just plain common sense and clear experience talking. Thank you for posting it EG.

So often safewords are presented as a mixture of somekind of submisive trump card and a safety net. Your post clears up very nicely why such presentations are somewhat deceptive and/or unrealistic.

I think the only thing I would add, would be that its important that both parties have the same understanding of safewords. Just because two people agree to use safewords during a scene, doesn't mean that they both have the same definition of should happen when safewords are used. So explaining what your POV is in regards to safewords or asking them to make clear what they mean by yes they use safewords is probably a good practice.

Awesome post.

 

[RJMasters]

LOL, I could have saved a whole lot of keystrokes if I'd just let you answer.

I'm glad you didn't as I thought your post was terrific too.

 

[RJMasters]

Why do people continue to try to twist being a submissive into something else? Are they embarrassed? Did someone tell you that submissiveness was bad? Are you attempting to please society and those around you who do not understand?

De'em some good questions.

I would guess that for some there would be some society type pressure along these lines, but probably what hits the marks closer to home would be for some, its just plain scary to give up control. I do think though it would make for an interesting thread in and of it self.

 

[BiBunny]

De'em some good questions.

I would guess that for some there would be some society type pressure along these lines, but probably what hits the marks closer to home would be for some, its just plain scary to give up control. I do think though it would make for an interesting thread in and of it self.

*Ahem*

Yeah. That happens.

 

[RJMasters]

*Ahem*

Yeah. That happens.

My understanding of the matter is that there is a direct porpotional relation to the scary factor and dom-rocket science.

That's a technical term which means you literally strap yourself to a Dom. The anticpation during the countdown is scary, then the Dom-rocket takes off and your guts feel like they just feel out the bottom, and then your feel like your floating.

oh yeah, and consistency and trust is in there somewhere too. I think

 

[BiBunny]

My understanding of the matter is that there is a direct porpotional relation to the scary factor and dom-rocket science.

That's a technical term which means you literally strap yourself to a Dom. The anticpation during the countdown is scary, then the Dom-rocket takes off and your guts feel like they just feel out the bottom, and then your feel like your floating.

oh yeah, and consistency and trust is in there somewhere too. I think

So you're saying I need to check out the size of his...um, rocket, then?

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Unless we go back to legalizing slavery, my dynamic with Master will never be enforceable within the law and theoretically, I could leave him whenever I liked.

That makes everything else something of a circular argument. No matter how well I present my feelings for him and my commitment to my slavery, the fact will always be that he has my slavery by virtue of my remaining at his feet.

My choice to remain at my feet however, is where my input as a decisionmaker ends.

Everything else is under his control. I stand by his decisions, even when I don't completely agree with them, because I take responsibility for my decision not to have this control. I'm not going to submit to him and then start crying 'no fair' when things don't go my way.

I have a business, a family, friends and a life. I manage my own finances and affairs just as I always have. These are not areas of my life where Master desires explicit control. He doesn't want to be burdened with areas of my life that I'm perfectly capable of running myself. Also, he recognises my need for friends and family, a career and other facets of a balanced life.

Having said that, he still has the option to interfere. If - for example - I had a friend who he thought was a truly bad influence who abused my good nature, I have no doubt that I'd be told so and in an extreme case I'd be commanded to end the friendship.

So he still has power of veto. It's implicit, just as my consent to whatever he does choose to control is implicit. It's not something we need to clarify on a daily basis.

I do not believe that I retain ultimate control. I have a couple of rights left to me. We still use safewords as I have health issues that mean I occasionally need to halt a scene without question or hesitation. If it weren't for that, we'd have ditched them by now. If at any point in the future I consider that he's being systematically abusive, either physically or psychologically and repeatedly bringing this to his attention and trying to work things out doesn't resolve things. If I feel that my mental or physical wellbeing is threatened in real terms by staying with him, my contract becomes void and I may leave.

I don't ever believe this will happen but forever is a long time and I wanted a clause that allowed me to leave for my own safety in extreme circumstances. I know that legally I could leave anyway but for my own peace of mind and integrity I wanted it included.

This may all sound like delusion to some of you but it's my life. My day to day reality. It defines who I am as a person and how I approach everything that occurs throughout my day. Master is my first concern in every decision I make and it's very rare that the needs of friends or family or myself ever supersede that. When they do, they do. He's a reasonable man who lives in the real world.

I don't know how relevant this all is, I just thought I'd explain my personal perspective.

 

[RJMasters]

So you're saying I need to check out the size of his...um, rocket, then?

sheesh is that all you women think about is cock size?











I know I couldn't type it with a straight face either! lol

 

[RJMasters]

Nice post Velvet. Sometimes the best explanation for anything is to just see a living breathing example of it.

 

[Netzach]

Unless we go back to legalizing slavery, my dynamic with Master will never be enforceable within the law and theoretically, I could leave him whenever I liked.

To me, this makes it so much sweeter than just being able to go down to the auction house and get myself a middle aged middle class white male for about 20 bucks.