Why the disdain for male submissives?

[alice_underneath]

Truthfully I think it's fear. People fear what they don't understand. And where their's fear there'll be anger. Basicly, people suck. Welcome to life.

That's a good point about people fearing what they don't understand, Graceanne.

I wonder if a different kind of fear might be at work too, sometimes. I have noticed that homophobes, for example, are often teen males or adults who are insecure in various ways. Perhaps the same type of thinking applies when some PYLs look at male submissives, and it's more a reflection of the insecurity and inner fears of the Dom than anything else.

Mature, self-confident, secure people don't need to push others down in order to try to prop themselves up. That makes them more tolerant and respectful in general than those who are inherently uncomfortable with themselves.

[Important note: My comments in this post are not directed at any Lit Doms. I have never seen a person here, whom I recognize as a self-proclaimed PYL, acting in a nasty or disrespectful way toward male submissives.]

 

[graceanne]

That's a good point about people fearing what they don't understand, Graceanne.

I wonder if a different kind of fear might be at work too, sometimes. I have noticed that homophobes, for example, are often teen males or adults who are insecure in various ways. Perhaps the same type of thinking applies when some PYLs look at male submissives, and it's more a reflection of the insecurity and inner fears of the Dom than anything else.

Mature, self-confident, secure people don't need to push others down in order to try to prop themselves up. That makes them more tolerant and respectful in general than those who are inherently uncomfortable with themselves.

[Important note: My comments in this post are not directed at any Lit Doms. I have never seen a person here, whom I recognize as a self-proclaimed PYL, acting in a nasty or disrespectful way toward male submissives.]

Oh my gosh, I was thinking that, but everytime I wrote it down it looked weird and rambling. I'm just too tired to make sense for that long of a post. lol

 

[Pure]

the question has a lot of sides, and unfortunately does not encourage frankness. it's like a thread on racism where everyone says, 'yeah I know someone who can't stand...."

for instance one facet not mentioned here is the attitude of many women toward male subs, including women who professionally cater to them. yet not a single woman here has expressed any reservation or discomfort. do y'all have lots of male subs as best friends?

two things strike me, and one has been mentioned: 1)first the idea of being 'sub' is fascinating for a couple not so good reasons-- roughly, getting laid, and getting catered to. as another poster stated, some male subs are extremely demanding and seemingly want to be a full time job plus ten percent. one might say it's male narcissism in another guise. which leads to the second point.

2) the other thing is the old paradox of basic nature: you find a Type A male and convince him the corporate rat race is going to kill him and he'd better take time off work and take up swimming and golf. Once involved he goes at them both with great dedication and competitiveness--to be the best swimmer or golfer!

my point here is that some males 'submission' is seemingly of the 'my submission is better than yours' variety. the ole' male competitiveness lives on, but in another form.

in all of this it's to be kept in mind that picking out features of male subs to explain why sometimes they are demeaned, is not what it appears. perhaps the 'why' can only be answered looking at the demeaner. just as we cant start a discussion of Black people with the question, what is it about them that puts white people off?

as a couple posters have indicated, the attitudes etc may mostly reflect the *holder's* character, for example his (if it's a male) inability to feel 'weak', to concede points, to be, as they say 'pussy whipped.'

had dinner with some relatives (couples), including male relatives (i.e., the husbands) this eve; very red blooded, Kiwana's Club, 'all american' types. seems several are refusing to see 'brokeback mountain.' so the wives are planning an outing--that is, a trip to see the movie. perhaps the 'male sub' is in the same category as those two cowboys.

 

[Xelebes]

I haven't had much trouble. Maybe because I use my "submissiveness" and I tout it menacingly. Or not. Not sure.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, I'm familiar with the word. I'm wondering how much disdain there is for the the submissive position in general but that we've channeled into only one gender because it's sexist to pick on women. ;->

I don't think it's "misandry" I think it's sexism applied to men. Men are supposed to be whatever they're supposed to be according to the rule book and that's in charge. It's not on their knees sucking cock and it's not "pussywhipped" by a woman.

The rule book, is, of course, complete crap, but we seem to be married to it.

 

[Netzach]

If the mood of that thread related to sexist reasoning, how is it that I as a bisexual woman who is also a feminist is not comfortable submitting to another woman? It is nothing to do with sexism, but a lot to do with trust issues from past experiences and allowing another to have power over you. My personal experiences have been with women who thrived on bringing others down in a bad way, be they women or men, so on the whole I am not comfortable putting myself in a position of submission to women in a role where they are within their rights to have power and control over me.


I do see where BB is going with this in terms of people having a view of male subs which does not necessarily correspond with reality, but I also see people have that attitude towards anyone who submits, male or female. There are those who simply cannot handle the confrontation of emotions submission arouses in them, usually based on an inability or failure to deal with their own deepset issues which finds an outlet in discriminating against submissives who trigger them. Many posts on this forum alone will reflect a belief, either jokingly or not, that submission is inferior and weak, even to the point of some submissives nurturing that view by their words and/or behaviour. I haven't seen the abundance of male subs in ratio to female subs, though more men are coming out of the closet so to speak when they feel safe enough with someone.

Catalina

I think it's an awfully interesting common thread throughout a lot of women's experiences to have nothing to do with internalizing sexism. Hey, I've had positively miserable experiences with female authority, I'm bisexual and feminist and I'll pick a woman every time to be over me over a man, and men have never done anything horrible to me per se. This is a highly individual thing.

One thing I've noticed - I've always found it interesting when my deviousness or sadistic impulse is also expected to be "greater" than my male counterparts in a mixed setting. (A common assumption - I'd prefer it's confirmed rather than assumed ) I don't mind or resent it, I just find it *really* interesting.


As for your point about how we feel when people abondon authority I think it's spot on. I still think it's generally seen as *worse* when a man does it.

 

[Netzach]

I also think it is our own fault for not holding the few creeps to task.

This is really interesting. I think I've seen more dangerous asshole and harmless but STILL asshole MDoms given a free pass in reality. The LOUD decrying of "online predators" is essentially sound and fury - in the lifestyle clubs I've been in, the real life asshole is warmly hugged on a weekly basis. Actually double this "get out of jail free" pass for insane FDoms - after all we're rare enough, let's not complain when we strain SSC or being decent humans.

I've met a lot of wannabe male subs. I've met a lot of creepily annoying men who want to bottom. They wear it on their sleeve, it's normally NOT subtly hidden, you see it right away - this is not true with other demographics. This is pretty much a blessing in dealing with msubs. Also, I find that because of the disdain factor, people expect guys to walk in completely clued about everything. There's no tolerance for an exploratory phase - if a woman is interested in bedroom bondage and wants to get laid and says so she gets OFFERS not "well YOU have no business being here." So a guy has to know everything, act correctly in a sexually charged atmosphere all the time, and hope and PRAY that some top will find him attractive enough to train and invest time in.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think it's an awfully interesting common thread throughout a lot of women's experiences to have nothing to do with internalizing sexism. Hey, I've had positively miserable experiences with female authority, I'm bisexual and feminist and I'll pick a woman every time to be over me over a man, and men have never done anything horrible to me per se. This is a highly individual thing.

One thing I've noticed - I've always found it interesting when my deviousness or sadistic impulse is also expected to be "greater" than my male counterparts in a mixed setting. (A common assumption - I'd prefer it's confirmed rather than assumed ) I don't mind or resent it, I just find it *really* interesting.


As for your point about how we feel when people abondon authority I think it's spot on. I still think it's generally seen as *worse* when a man does it.

So very true Netzach, and as I have said before, you are the exception I think I at this point in my journey I could feel comfortable with and trust, but then think we all know you are kinda special.

Catalina

 

[MechaBlade]

Why don't male submissives get the same respect that female submissives do? Many of the attitudes I've heard expressed about male submissives would incite a riot if only the gender were reveresed.

We don't accuse female submissives of being weak. We don't accuse female Dominants of being unnatural. (Unless we don't mind looking like complete asshats)

Is it just ingrained sexism rearing its ugly head or is it something more?


-B

I've never really seen anyone disresprect male subs myself. My only problem with them is that they are massively overrpresented in media depictions of the BDSM scene.

That, and male subs are ruining America.

 

[alice_underneath]

my point here is that some males 'submission' is seemingly of the 'my submission is better than yours' variety. the ole' male competitiveness lives on, but in another form.

I'm not so sure it is fair to pin this phenomenon on male subs.

Again, my sample size is quite limited, but my observation is that the few subs who display that tendency here are female.

 

[Pure]

incidentally,

i agree with Netzach based on my limited sample at Lit, and limited cyber interactions: the self-said MDom is far more likely, IMO, a) to grate on the nerves and b) [in some cases] to be a possible danger. It seems hard-- as with males generally-- to find the middle ground between extreme macho and radical sensitivity. There are, IMO, only a few successes, characterized by quiet, nonboastful confidence, at least in terms of my perceptions.

The thread devoted to 'topping' was set up to have an area of drastically reduced 'domliness.'

the MSub that doesn't quite have it, is more a simple nuisance in his trolling. the MDom will soon find a gull, and next thing ya know, he has the latter posting encomia to him.

 

[Recidiva]

I think it also has to do with being "outside the group" and how prejudice works.

For instance, I wouldn't even know there were "Yankee" jokes unless my cousin clued me in how much hatred there is for some part of me I can't help being.

The people who truly hate me generally won't tell me to my face. It's done with a group that is assumed to share the hatred. You might not hear the hatred directed to your group, at least the most virulent forms.

Of course, if you're not going to fight back...that also makes you the Amish. Easy target for the cruel.

So the insular nature of hatred along with the public nature of submissiveness conspire here.

There's enough hatred to go around, but in this case it bottoms out, at least in public perception. Females being submissive is a culturally accepted practice, at least to an extent. They have that in their favor, at least the most bigoted and crude will consider that "fitting."

Men don't have the natural cultural protections from attack and they're going to get it the worst.

 

[alice_underneath]

LOL, Pure.

That reminds me of post #2 on this thread:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=392247

 

[Proudsubinatl]

My 2 cents

Thanks

 

[FurryFury]

I have no such disdain. If fact I love em, just as I love most.

Fury

 

[bridgeburner]

There are those who simply cannot handle the confrontation of emotions submission arouses in them, usually based on an inability or failure to deal with their own deepset issues which finds an outlet in discriminating against submissives who trigger them. Many posts on this forum alone will reflect a belief, either jokingly or not, that submission is inferior and weak, even to the point of some submissives nurturing that view by their words and/or behaviour.

I've often heard female submissives vehemently insist that even though they're submissives they're Alpha Subs --- they rule every aspect of their lives in all ways except when it comes to pleasing their Masters. The protestation seems to be a way of making up for the fact that they're sexually submissive --- as if it truly isn't okay to be such unless you can claim power in all other areas. I can understand why people outside the BDSM world would feel that way, but to feel that way about yourself? To somewhere, deep down believe that there really is something wrong with you because you don't like to be in charge?

Or to feel that sexually submissive somehow indicates that you are a wimpy personality in all situations able to be steamrolled and pushed aside and dismissed? What kind of fucked up hangup have we bought into?

But if that is the case then the attitude toward male subs makes more sense. If nobody really, truly believes that you can be sexually submissive and not be a dishrag even though the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, then, as Recidiva points out, it's far less culturally accepted for a man to be submissive than for a woman.

Gawd, please tell me that made some sense. I know what I'm trying to say but for some reason I can't get it out my fingers this morning. I need more caffeine.


-B

 

[Ariel797]

I do know some doms who have apparently been in one too many AOL chatrooms, or have gotten the idea that all males "should" be doms. And I think those have further gotten the idea that any male who is NOT a dom is "weak."

I'd like to see a dom hang weights from his balls without squealing like a girl or crying, and then use the words "weak" and "male subs" in the same sentence. If I ever have to go to war, I want a row of male subs behind me. I could conquer the world.

Personally, there is something so erotic for me about a male willingly handing over to me his body, his will, that is sexual in and of itself. That takes tremendous courage, male or female. I have never understood why there is a difference made. Again, I think some of this has to do with an online perception by some men of what a man "should" be, and yet again, I'd challenge them to have a few weights or wear a Gates of Hell for awhile. Then come back to me and see if they would use the word "weakness."

 

[bridgeburner]

BTW,------I was prompted to begin this thread by comments I read here in the forum yesterday on another thread that I can't now remember the name of.

Just wanted to remind folks not to be like California --- always pointing to the Southeast when talk of racism arises. The Rodney King and Watts Riots didn't happen in Alabama.

 

[Netzach]

So, femsubs --

when evaluating a potential SO in a BDSM club/mixed society type atmosphere do you subscribe to the "how does he treat the waiter" kind of thing?

I was always very observant of how a switchable potential Top partner or a very alpha bottom reacted to subs.

If I were in the market for a male Dom, I think I'd be really interested in his reactions to male subs. I always asked people I was interested in as a Top if they were a bottom or not to see if the reaction was "nah" or "ew, are you KIDDING?"

the latter was immediate disqualification from ever topping me or being taken seriously again.

 

[graceanne]

So, femsubs --

when evaluating a potential SO in a BDSM club/mixed society type atmosphere do you subscribe to the "how does he treat the waiter" kind of thing?

I was always very observant of how a switchable potential Top partner or a very alpha bottom reacted to subs.

If I were in the market for a male Dom, I think I'd be really interested in his reactions to male subs. I always asked people I was interested in as a Top if they were a bottom or not to see if the reaction was "nah" or "ew, are you KIDDING?"

the latter was immediate disqualification from ever topping me or being taken seriously again.

Not that I see myself on the market anytime soon, but that's a really smart question. If I ever am I'm going to remember that.

 

[alice_underneath]

I've often heard female submissives vehemently insist that even though they're submissives they're Alpha Subs --- they rule every aspect of their lives in all ways except when it comes to pleasing their Masters. The protestation seems to be a way of making up for the fact that they're sexually submissive --- as if it truly isn't okay to be such unless you can claim power in all other areas. I can understand why people outside the BDSM world would feel that way, but to feel that way about yourself? To somewhere, deep down believe that there really is something wrong with you because you don't like to be in charge?

You are making a good point here, B, but that's not the only way I've seen female submissives degrade the position in general.

The uber-masochistic slave who alternates between flaunting her own toughness and openly insulting simple TIH-style submission is doing the very same thing.

 

[alice_underneath]

I do know some doms who have apparently been in one too many AOL chatrooms, or have gotten the idea that all males "should" be doms. And I think those have further gotten the idea that any male who is NOT a dom is "weak."

I'd like to see a dom hang weights from his balls without squealing like a girl or crying, and then use the words "weak" and "male subs" in the same sentence. If I ever have to go to war, I want a row of male subs behind me. I could conquer the world.

Personally, there is something so erotic for me about a male willingly handing over to me his body, his will, that is sexual in and of itself. That takes tremendous courage, male or female. I have never understood why there is a difference made. Again, I think some of this has to do with an online perception by some men of what a man "should" be, and yet again, I'd challenge them to have a few weights or wear a Gates of Hell for awhile. Then come back to me and see if they would use the word "weakness."

I understand your point here, that male subs can be just as tough as the most macho hey-I-can-take-anything kinduva guy.

But what about a male sub who is not a masochist? Should this guy have to hang weights from his bits to prove he's not the wimp that the nasty Doms declare him to be? I realize that's not what you said, but I am asking the question to address B's fundamental point here.

What's so inherently wrong about not wanting to be in charge in an intimate relationship? Why does anybody, male or female, feel they have to compensate for making this simple choice?

I think Netzach is right. The problem is -

Men are supposed to be whatever they're supposed to be according to the rule book and that's in charge.

Everything else is details.

 

[Netzach]

You are making a good point here, B, but that's not the only way I've seen female submissives degrade the position in general.

The uber-masochistic slave who alternates between flaunting her own toughness and openly insulting simple TIH-style submission is doing the very same thing.

I don't see that and I don't agree.

I think the world at large is very comfy and cozy with "simple TIH style" female submission - it's pretty much analogous to beinng a good wife with some spanking sprinkles.

I don't think that it is with female masochism or enslavement. I expect that the outside world would want such things "not flaunted" but if you can't handle that in the BDSM community kitchen well you know the rest. The masochistic female is not being validated anywhere else. The woman who likes her men strong and sexually overpowering and a gent in public is validated all over the place - to the point of anyone else being made out to be a freak.

 

[alice_underneath]

I think the world at large is very comfy and cozy with "simple TIH style" female submission - it's pretty much analogous to beinng a good wife with some spanking sprinkles.

We had this conversation before, Netzach, on the Dom training thread.

I don't expect you to agree with me. I'll simply note that there is clearly a profound difference between cultural attitudes in different communities of the US.

TIH-style submission gets you contempt and/or a recommendation for a good therapist where I live.

 

[Proudsubinatl]

It's too bad

Thanks