Why the disdain for male submissives?
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Shankara20
Well, that is lovely
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Proudsubinatl said:
Do not give up, only know what it can e like and take care of yourself. To keep myself from going craze when I enter into a new sexual oriented community I tell myself "once again I am that dreaded unattached male". In time people come to see me for who I am, that I am safe, that I am sincere, that I help set-up and clean-up, and that I keep coming back. Works every time. Heck, some here ever post to my threads now after me having started about 10 that died as soon I set them up and a whole bunch that died with me being that last poster. It just takes time and a willingness to learn a little about fitting into a community you want to be part of - and that part is true of any new community, not just a perv group.
DO NOT GIVE UP!
catalina_francisco
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I find it disturbing that people outside the BDSM community as such, IOW interested bystanders who discuss BDSM, have become experts in this and are telling it like it is but which in our experience it is not. Female submissives might differentiate when and how they submit because it is often mistaken that to be submissive means you are a dimwit and need someone to tell you what to do, not to mention a lot think it means you are an easy lay...IME it has nothing to do with being ashamed of being sexually submissive or submissive fullstop, especially as has often been pointed out by those of us who are submissive, it is not all about sex, often it is not sexual at all.
I also am still finding it difficult to catch this drift that a male sub is persecuted against and has to prove he is still a man. Sheesh, we have not met any male subs who have had that experience, nor do we treat our boys that way. We play with ones who want to be sissified and as such they are happy in that role, and we play with ones who do not want anything at all to do with sissification because that is not what rocks their boat, so we don't go there...and we also are talking to some prospectives who are not masoichistic but still are not expected to become so to prove anything. They prove their submission, which is the main point, through their mindset and desire to submit, not by some masculinity test. Perhaps it is a cultural variation.
Catalina
I also am still finding it difficult to catch this drift that a male sub is persecuted against and has to prove he is still a man. Sheesh, we have not met any male subs who have had that experience, nor do we treat our boys that way. We play with ones who want to be sissified and as such they are happy in that role, and we play with ones who do not want anything at all to do with sissification because that is not what rocks their boat, so we don't go there...and we also are talking to some prospectives who are not masoichistic but still are not expected to become so to prove anything. They prove their submission, which is the main point, through their mindset and desire to submit, not by some masculinity test. Perhaps it is a cultural variation.
Catalina
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Proudsubinatl said:
This really tore at my heart when I read this, seriously. I really doubt that at a munch, anybody made fun of you or any other sub or dom or anyone who went there. I'm sure it happens occasionally just because there's always some goofballs in every group in every society, but the majority of people in bdsm offline are, I have found, extremely conscientious, very nice, more than willing to discuss and help. And they are more than willing to help in ways other than just how to use a clamp or tie a knot. Some of the dearest people in the world, the kindest and most loving, are people involved incidentally in BDSM. "Incidentally" because bdsm is a part of our lives and not THE part of our lives.
I know that a lot of people are saying in this thread that they've never had this kind of experience or run into it; some have, others have not. It could be the region of the country or a particular cultural aspect that causes some to run into this more than others. And again, in any group, in any country, you're going to have some twits, but the majority of people in any group, and I know this sounds naive but I believe it, are good.
I have run into very little of this approach towards male subs offline. The two times I did come across it offline, both people were very quickly told by subs, dom/mes, switches, didn't matter, people are people, people have their interests and desires and in other words, back off buddy.
I have run into this more online, and I think that is because there's gotten to be a misconception among a certain type of personality that men "should" be this or that, when in reality, most of those goobers who walk into a chat room wouldn't know which end of a rope to tie if it came up and smacked them in the face. And I just realized I have let that kind of attitude affect what I write for fun because I got so little response and such negativity about the one time I ventured into what is my personal venue, femdomme/malesub, that I just dropped it and focused on that offline and wrote about other stuff online. So I fell into the trap myself.
Anyway. This really did bother me and I really am sorry you got this impression.
I think the majority of the people involved in bdsm, who do it for real, who have it as a part of their personal make-up i.e., it's not something they put on and take off just for show, it's as much a part of them as whether or not their hair is red or their skin is blue or whatever - I think the majority of those people don't give a rip one way or the other if somebody is sub or dom/me except in regards to, "I'm looking for this person to fit into my life and desires." The very very tiny minority of people who have a "problem" with male subs or for that matter, female dommes, are going to have a problem males or females or whether or not Oreos have enough creme filling or you name it; they are going to have problems in life if there was never bdsm.
I really, truly hope you and others don't get the impression that there is a huge disdain out there for male subs.
I think online has done good things for bdsm as far as getting the word out and giving people a venue for discussing and learning about it. And I hope most of all that people learn that those "into" bdsm are people first and foremost. They have mortgages, cut their lawns, pay their bills, love their children and want them to go to good schools, worry about taxes, etc. and only as a part of themselves, do they have bdsm as part of themselves, and their lives.
The tiny minority, or this is what I've run into personally, who have certain pre-set notions about who should or should not be doing whatever, are going to have pre-set notions about others whether there was ever bdsm or not. That's my feeling on it, anyway.
It is out there. But it is not a large group of people.
And those who make the effort to go to a munch, set it up, participate in it - they are not the type of people, 99.9% of the time, to make fun of others. Especially when those of us who do have bdsm as part of our emotional make-up are persecuted elsewhere. I've always thought that was rather bizarre - people who get into a group that is persecuted or thought ill of to begin with ("Oh. You people like whips and chains." No. Not everybody likes whips and chains. Not everybody likes pain. Not everybody does or likes the bondage part, and it's still bdsm, or what it is we do) and then go about setting up parameters to persecute. It's weird.
BUT.
Those are rare exceptions, and my point is, they are going to be the trouble-makers in any group, no matter what. Some people are never going to be satisfied unless they have something or someone else to gripe about.
Makes 'em feel good about themselves. rolling eyesAnd my bet is again, people who take the time and effort to go to a munch, are NOT going to be the type of people to make fun of others who likewise took the time and effort to go to a munch.
That's my take on it, anyway.
catalina_francisco said:They prove their submission, which is the main point, through their mindset and desire to submit, not by some masculinity test. Perhaps it is a cultural variation.
Catalina
I only quoted part of your excellent post, but I think that is an excellent summarization re: "their mindset and desire to submit." I do think there is a cultural variation at work that affects perception. I do think the Net has had some negative influence, as well, but it has to a larger degree had a positive aspect, letting people know more. I have run into a couple of males who have had this experience, but I do think there is, as you say, a cultural variation at work. Further, some of the males I've run into on and offline (More online) who have the idea of how they are "supposed" to act seem to have a common theme of a lot of chat room experience and as I've said, probably wouldn't know which end of a rope to tie if it bit them. On the other hand, it appeals to me to just turn my back to them and ignore them.
I thought you had some very good points in your post.
alice_underneath said:I understand your point here, that male subs can be just as tough as the most macho hey-I-can-take-anything kinduva guy.
But what about a male sub who is not a masochist? Should this guy have to hang weights from his bits to prove he's not the wimp that the nasty Doms declare him to be?
Just quoted a part of your post since you were replying in part to mine - good point. I used the weights as one example, but I should have clarified. I used bondage as one aspect because "weakness" was mentioned, and the weights seems to be about as opposite of weak as one could get!
Netzach
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I would say to the post a few posts back that you should not worry, this is not a view that's espoused hugely widely, but it is out there it is something you may bump up against -- because I hate to break it to you, but you are correct in fearing that the BDSM community is not more enlightened than the world-at-large. I'm not trying to crap in your wheaties, but you will save yourself some disappointment (I speak from experience) in staying as alert and being as critical in evaluating people as you are anywhere else -- just because we're all kinky in here doesn't mean we're all cool. Find the people who nourish you and cherish them. You don't have to be paranoid, but you should be paying attention.
Proudsubinatl
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Thanks
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Proudsubinatl said:
I don't think your experiences are atypical. I know that the discussion of why do people feel a certain way about male subs, or female subs, or female doms, or fill-in-the-blank, tends to come up in various online bdsm groups at times because it's an interesting topic, at the least.
My own point is that we are all going to run into some disdain or prejudice in our lives somewhere along the way, but I think it's because those who do the disdaining (!) are going to be looking for somebody or something to pick on anyway; they would probably gripe about weeds in the flower bed if they couldn't find anything else to complain about. There are people who don't think that women should be dominant. People who feel that men shouldn't be this or that, or women should not be this or that.
I don't think your experiences are atypical, though. There are some jerks out there, sure, but there are a few jerks in all groups, in all the world. But the majority of people are really, truly, good at heart. I know I'm coming off as Pollyanna here but I believe this. Some of my friends who incidentally are involved in bdsm have been and are some of the most loving, generous, wonderful people I have ever known in my life.
Temptress_lee
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I think everyone made some great points. If some of you hadn't said it earlier I would have brought it up. Usually when I watch porn that involves a female dominating a male. Alot of the male subs that are into it usually request alot of this behavior from his Mistress or Female dom. It's not like she woke up one day and decided to treat her sub badly. And i'm sure there are female subs who desire the same treatment. But alot of them don't really request it. Alot of them just desire the strength, and power that a male dom asserts.
And if it doesn't say she's into verbal humilation in the contract then the male dom doesn't usually treat her that way. And even if he does a little bit there's usually a safe word thats developed were if the sub is uncomfortable at any time they can use it.
I guess people just don't understand male subs because there willing to put the female needs, before his own. It's something that people might consider weak or unatural but in my opinion it's anything but unatural. People all desire different things. Like with the verbal humilation, and making a man feel weak, or useless is a desire. He wants to be treated this way and it motivates him to do better in the future. He does just about everything in his power to insure that he's the best slave that he can be because it makes HIM feel good. Yeah maybe the female dom gets some sort of sick twisted pleasure out of punishing her subs, but with every punishment there comes a reward.
Even if a guy did want me to verbally humilate him in the bedroom. I still wouldn't think he was weird for thinking this way. If anything I believe that it takes alot of guts to give up your power, your ego, and just about everything you stand for just so you can make your Dom, or femdom happy.
If anything it's kindof sexy.
And if it doesn't say she's into verbal humilation in the contract then the male dom doesn't usually treat her that way. And even if he does a little bit there's usually a safe word thats developed were if the sub is uncomfortable at any time they can use it.
I guess people just don't understand male subs because there willing to put the female needs, before his own. It's something that people might consider weak or unatural but in my opinion it's anything but unatural. People all desire different things. Like with the verbal humilation, and making a man feel weak, or useless is a desire. He wants to be treated this way and it motivates him to do better in the future. He does just about everything in his power to insure that he's the best slave that he can be because it makes HIM feel good. Yeah maybe the female dom gets some sort of sick twisted pleasure out of punishing her subs, but with every punishment there comes a reward.
Even if a guy did want me to verbally humilate him in the bedroom. I still wouldn't think he was weird for thinking this way. If anything I believe that it takes alot of guts to give up your power, your ego, and just about everything you stand for just so you can make your Dom, or femdom happy.
If anything it's kindof sexy.
ammre
ani and griselda's child
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gender norms [box].
The masculine gender box involves dominance, power, control, strength.
The feminine gender box involves submissiveness, lack of control, weakness, helplessness.
we know that people don't ACTUALLY fit into those boxes but even the heroines we sometimes have come to love have these qualities or something else that excuses the qualities, and the men who show weakness have an excuse or are beat up.
Homophobia comes about almost as a "genderphobia" being terrified by someone who breaks out of those boxes... people are called things like "fag" dyke" etc when they exhibit qualities of the other gender, they don't even have to be homosexual to recive those insults. A homosexual couple defies gender norms becasue a couple is considered to haeva dominant and submissive partner (again, it's not really how it happens but you always see the pictures on the romance novels, the big burly man holding the woman tightly in his arms as she looks helpless, hello.) and when you have a male and female dominance and submission are assumed, but when you have two males or two females, people start to wonder who is the dominant partner? how could a woman possibly be a dominant partner? how could a man be a submissive partner?
and so too you reach the idea of a male submissive being totally outside the gender norm. The outside world of course looks on with disdain, because it confuses them. All of us, having been raised in this society, even if we don't want to admit it, probably had a slight weird feeling at first about it, maybe even still.
Even some feminists/ gender advocates i know won't do it becasue the verbal humiliation or what not could be largely gender based "sissy" "pussy" and that's repeating the behavior. I know that i probably woulnd't be able to do it. Of course after facing my own struggle with being a feminist and loving when someone smacks me and calls me a whore, i've learned that if it makes you happy and dosne't harm others then all is good and well...
can we tell i'm studying women's studies with a concentration in gender issues... i've even taken a psychology of men class, yes it's as important as psychology of women... I'm also a queer (transgender) youth, and a chapter member of the gender public advocacy coalition.
Oh and i'm sure due to the psyche of male subs there's probably some other things going on that put women off.
Regarding care of submissives, i once saw this woman screw up whacking this guy with a ruler like thing, and she smacked him clear across the bottom of the spine. It was horrible. I worry that male submissives arne't being pickey enough about the women they let top or domme them so they don't discern between a good domme and a bad domme
Also intrestingly enough, i dind't reald the WHOLE thread so far becasue i havea big mouth and big ideas about this stuff, but form what i read we never touched on male subs with male doms...
The masculine gender box involves dominance, power, control, strength.
The feminine gender box involves submissiveness, lack of control, weakness, helplessness.
we know that people don't ACTUALLY fit into those boxes but even the heroines we sometimes have come to love have these qualities or something else that excuses the qualities, and the men who show weakness have an excuse or are beat up.
Homophobia comes about almost as a "genderphobia" being terrified by someone who breaks out of those boxes... people are called things like "fag" dyke" etc when they exhibit qualities of the other gender, they don't even have to be homosexual to recive those insults. A homosexual couple defies gender norms becasue a couple is considered to haeva dominant and submissive partner (again, it's not really how it happens but you always see the pictures on the romance novels, the big burly man holding the woman tightly in his arms as she looks helpless, hello.) and when you have a male and female dominance and submission are assumed, but when you have two males or two females, people start to wonder who is the dominant partner? how could a woman possibly be a dominant partner? how could a man be a submissive partner?
and so too you reach the idea of a male submissive being totally outside the gender norm. The outside world of course looks on with disdain, because it confuses them. All of us, having been raised in this society, even if we don't want to admit it, probably had a slight weird feeling at first about it, maybe even still.
Even some feminists/ gender advocates i know won't do it becasue the verbal humiliation or what not could be largely gender based "sissy" "pussy" and that's repeating the behavior. I know that i probably woulnd't be able to do it. Of course after facing my own struggle with being a feminist and loving when someone smacks me and calls me a whore, i've learned that if it makes you happy and dosne't harm others then all is good and well...
can we tell i'm studying women's studies with a concentration in gender issues... i've even taken a psychology of men class, yes it's as important as psychology of women... I'm also a queer (transgender) youth, and a chapter member of the gender public advocacy coalition.
Oh and i'm sure due to the psyche of male subs there's probably some other things going on that put women off.
Regarding care of submissives, i once saw this woman screw up whacking this guy with a ruler like thing, and she smacked him clear across the bottom of the spine. It was horrible. I worry that male submissives arne't being pickey enough about the women they let top or domme them so they don't discern between a good domme and a bad domme
Also intrestingly enough, i dind't reald the WHOLE thread so far becasue i havea big mouth and big ideas about this stuff, but form what i read we never touched on male subs with male doms...
catalina_francisco
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ammre said:
LOL, I did in the context of our playing with them.
Catalina
snowy ciara
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And another bump, for discussion
snowy ciara
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Because in the "showing arousal" thread started by Wrad, there was kind of a side discussion about male subs going on. Several newer members weighed in on it, and I thought they had not seen earlier threads, so in order to facilitate discussion and not hijack Wrad's thread further, I bumped them. I understand that bumping old threads to flood the boards and disrupt conversation is wrong, but that wasn't my intent.
My apologies to those who were offended, no offense was intended.
Edited because I forgot to spell-check.
My apologies to those who were offended, no offense was intended.
Edited because I forgot to spell-check.
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catalina_francisco
Happily insatiable always
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snowy ciara said:Because in the "showing arousal" thread started by Wrad, there was kind of a side discussion about male subs going on. Several newer members weighed in on it, and I thought they had not seen earlier threads, so in order to facilitate discussion and not hijack Wrad's thread further, I bumped them. I understand that bumping old threads to flood the boards and disrupt conversation is wrong, but that wasn't my intent.
My apologies to those who were offended, no offense was intended.
Edited because I forgot to spell-check.
You offend? Never!! Nice to see you back around these parts.
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