Women, Do you consider a handjob cheating or just being friendly ?

[SexyVita]

But are they just being assholes or is something else going on?

I blame Lifetime original movies.

 

[SlutAddicted]

Well yes. I agree with what you are saying on the surface. For example, I don't give any partner the right to say that I can't masturbate, that's a solo act of self-care as far as I'm concerned and no partner has the right to take that away any more than taking away my right to eat. I simply wouldn't be with a partner would made that a requirement of "staying faithful." If, however, I decided that I loved someone enough that I chose to forgo masturbation not to hurt them, that's my choice and I have to accept the consquences of that.

My original point was less about a definition of cheating as the perception of cheating. I don't really think there can be an objective definition for cheating, since it means so many different things to so many different people. But for all practical purposes inside the relationship, engaging in behavior your partner considers cheating causes the same harm to the relationship regardless of whether it might objectively be call cheating or not.

I think this still boils down to a case of "Is it better to be right, or loving?" In a situation like you descibe, my first reaction would be to validate my partner's feelings even if I disagree with their definition of cheating. I would say that I understand that they feel cheated on and that I'm very sorry that I made them feel that way. I don't have to admit to cheating, but can still recognize and accept that they feel cheated on and apologize for my part in causing them to feel that way.

After that comes the harder work of both healing the rift and trying to prevent a reoccurance of the same hurt, whether by accepting their definition as my guiding principle, or explaining my own point of view and feelings in the hopes that my partner understands and is willing to compromise. If none of that works, there is the even harder step of ending the relationship altogether, which while painful on both sides, is less painful than repeatedly hurting my partner with my behavior and my own feelings of guilt for doing so.

Obviously it is better to be loving, but that needs to be a two-way street. If you have done something that hurts your partner you should apologize and seek to address their feelings and repair the relationship. Their feelings should be treated as intrinsically valid.

But communication cannot proceed if one partner is clinging to the premise that "my feelings are hurt therefore I am the victim and you are the cheater....I am right and you are wrong." As Policywank noted that is an unproductive response that is just another variation on caring more about being right than being loving. Both partners need to seek to understand the other's point of view and accept the possibility that they aren't 100% correct. Claiming the role of victim shouldn't excuse one from holding up their end of that bargain.

I think you are correct that engaging in behaviour that your partner considers cheating is harmful regardless of whether it might objectively be called cheating - just because you didn't mean to hurt them doesn't mean it hurt them any less. But how we address their feelings and move that communication forward varies based upon the circumstance. If I am in a monogamous marriage and I fuck my wife's sister the fact pattern is that I hurt her badly and there is no way I didn't know that would be the result. I should be grovelling for forgiveness. But if my girlfriend who never told me she has an issue with masturbation catches me jerking off and has a similarly negative reaction my response is going to be different. I am going to say that I am sorry that I hurt your feelings and I want to work this out. But I am going to defend myself against accusations of cheating on the basis that I genuinely didn't know she felt that way and I genuinely don't see it as cheating. Expressing my perspective is not synonymous with diminishing hers if it is done tactfully and while ensuring that I am listening to and respecting her concerns.

We both get a say in what we see as cheating - to your point if my partner said I can't masturbate my response would be I don't accept that position. "I'm sorry we didn't discuss it sooner and I am sorry I hurt you. But I don't accept the premise that the circumstance we find ourselves in is all my fault simply because you feel hurt. Your view on the matter isn't more valid than mine and the responsibility to communicate about the things that are important to us is a shared responsibility." Productive communication not only allows but in fact requires that we give equal weight to all points of view, including our own. Fighting to be "right" isn't productive, but neither is falling over yourself to say that you are "wrong" just to assuage hurt feelings. neither approach is balanced and both will undermine effective communication.

 

[policywank]

I blame Lifetime original movies.

Lol. Well it might not be all their fault.

A few times I have recounted an experience I had with a close friend a few years ago. Her husband cheated on her. She was doing the rounds where I and all her friends express sympathy and condemn her husband for being a dirt bag. But something didn't add up for me. He had always seemed like such a great guy. The more I probed it turned out that they had not had any meaningful sex life for 20 years. She had a bunch of reasons that were all valid (and familiar to many women) on their own but strung together over 20 years they did not seem sufficient to me. Over time and through therapy it came out that she came to recognize that she had never really put in much of an effort to their sex life and took it for granted that it was his husbandly duty to just stick it out. Meanwhile he tried everything he could. He didn't push too hard and worked to overcome or rectify whatever most recent reason she offered up for their lack of sex life. Eventually he gave in to temptation. He confessed nearly right away and immediately wanted to make amends which is when she was doing the pity tour. His cheating was a betrayal. But it didn't happen in isolation of other factors. And it was the inclination to ignore those other factors that initially led her to a harsh conclusion and which had led to her longtime neglect of their sex life.

Now if Lifetime original movies have taught us anything it is that: a) a woman's reasons for not engaging with her husband sexually are always intrinsically valid; b) any attempt to question those reasons is evidence that he is a misogynist jerk; c) the right amount of sexual activity is defined by the wife in all circumstances; and d) any man who leaves his wife due to a lack of sex life or cheats on her is, by definition, an absolute piece of shit that doesn't deserve her heavenly presence. That all sort of adds up if the woman in question is an essentially good-hearted person who always puts other first, but is going through a bit of a tough time and must choose between her misogynist, douche bag, cheating lawyer boyfriend and her high school sweetheart who just lost his wife to cancer and is now raising their perfectly precocious children while he saves the hometown bookstore from financial ruin.

Sarcasm intended, lol. Those sort of absolutes encourage us to slot ourselves and those close to us into nice neat boxes where we don't have to consider the possibility that we are part of the problem. Eventually my friend accept her husband's apology and accepted the fact that her benign neglect was a contributing factor to how things played out. She has subsequently said outright that if she had actually embraced the premise that sex is part of marriage and it is part of her duty to her husband to invest in a grown up sex life everything would have been different. And over the years when she talked to other women about how her husband was trying to resuscitate their sex life they always gave her some platitude about men and their excessive sexual appetite. The first person that pushed back on that narrative was me when she was telling me how much of a piece of shit he was after he cheated. She didn't like it much when I told her that no partner man or woman should be expected to put up with no sex life for that long and that she had in fact violated that aspect of the marriage "contract" long before he cheated. A couple years later she said she wished I had said it sooner because it would have been a lot more useful than the absolutes, stereotypes and platitudes that helps and encouraged her to keep on her blinders.

 

[SexyVita]

Now if Lifetime original movies have taught us anything it is that: a) a woman's reasons for not engaging with her husband sexually are always intrinsically valid; b) any attempt to question those reasons is evidence that he is a misogynist jerk; c) the right amount of sexual activity is defined by the wife in all circumstances; and d) any man who leaves his wife due to a lack of sex life or cheats on her is, by definition, an absolute piece of shit that doesn't deserve her heavenly presence. That all sort of adds up if the woman in question is an essentially good-hearted person who always puts other first, but is going through a bit of a tough time and must choose between her misogynist, douche bag, cheating lawyer boyfriend and her high school sweetheart who just lost his wife to cancer and is now raising their perfectly precocious children while he saves the hometown bookstore from financial ruin.

And yet so it seems to be, in your own words no less!

And I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. I might even go so far as to say that a relationship with no sex that goes on for 20 years is abusive and that her husband is a saint for holding out that long! I mean even saints fuck up occasionally, and once in 20 years isn't a bad record!

 

[SexyVita]

Obviously it is better to be loving, but that needs to be a two-way street. If you have done something that hurts your partner you should apologize and seek to address their feelings and repair the relationship. Their feelings should be treated as intrinsically valid.

But communication cannot proceed if one partner is clinging to the premise that "my feelings are hurt therefore I am the victim and you are the cheater....I am right and you are wrong." As Policywank noted that is an unproductive response that is just another variation on caring more about being right than being loving. Both partners need to seek to understand the other's point of view and accept the possibility that they aren't 100% correct. Claiming the role of victim shouldn't excuse one from holding up their end of that bargain.

I think you are correct that engaging in behaviour that your partner considers cheating is harmful regardless of whether it might objectively be called cheating - just because you didn't mean to hurt them doesn't mean it hurt them any less. But how we address their feelings and move that communication forward varies based upon the circumstance. If I am in a monogamous marriage and I fuck my wife's sister the fact pattern is that I hurt her badly and there is no way I didn't know that would be the result. I should be grovelling for forgiveness. But if my girlfriend who never told me she has an issue with masturbation catches me jerking off and has a similarly negative reaction my response is going to be different. I am going to say that I am sorry that I hurt your feelings and I want to work this out. But I am going to defend myself against accusations of cheating on the basis that I genuinely didn't know she felt that way and I genuinely don't see it as cheating. Expressing my perspective is not synonymous with diminishing hers if it is done tactfully and while ensuring that I am listening to and respecting her concerns.

We both get a say in what we see as cheating - to your point if my partner said I can't masturbate my response would be I don't accept that position. "I'm sorry we didn't discuss it sooner and I am sorry I hurt you. But I don't accept the premise that the circumstance we find ourselves in is all my fault simply because you feel hurt. Your view on the matter isn't more valid than mine and the responsibility to communicate about the things that are important to us is a shared responsibility." Productive communication not only allows but in fact requires that we give equal weight to all points of view, including our own. Fighting to be "right" isn't productive, but neither is falling over yourself to say that you are "wrong" just to assuage hurt feelings. neither approach is balanced and both will undermine effective communication.

Of course, each circumstance is different and the way we handle it needs to change to match. In my experience though, and I think we generally agree on this, the focus should be on validation, apology for real or perceived hurts, forgiveness, mending the relationship, and preventing a repeation of the hurt. Both parties need to be invested in that process or it will not make it all the way through. In any case proving that one partner is right and the other wrong, should never enter into the equation, that's just a quagmire and fuel for future hurt, resentment, and shame.

 

[SlutAddicted]

Of course, each circumstance is different and the way we handle it needs to change to match. In my experience though, and I think we generally agree on this, the focus should be on validation, apology for real or perceived hurts, forgiveness, mending the relationship, and preventing a repeation of the hurt. Both parties need to be invested in that process or it will not make it all the way through. In any case proving that one partner is right and the other wrong, should never enter into the equation, that's just a quagmire and fuel for future hurt, resentment, and shame.

Agreed. Navigating that communication dynamic is especially challenging if your partner approaches it on the basis that they are right. Our knee-jerk reaction is usually to refute it, which takes us down that path. My wife is very good about approaching things with an open mind. Although I can't say that for everyone else I encounter in life. Lol. Over time I have learned that the more effective response is just to say something along the lines of "I have a different point of view. I am not saying that my point of view is right or that yours is wrong. I'd just like us to understand one another's perspective."

Years ago a friend of mine made a comment about feelings that really stuck with me. I was going through a tough time and sort of questioning my own feelings. And he made the point that all of our feelings are intrinsically valid. They are an involuntary reaction to our circumstance. They aren't contrived so how can they not be valid. Someone trying to invalidate your emotional feelings is no more valid than someone trying to tell you that you aren't feeling physical pain. Each of us knows what we are feeling. It isn't up for debate or challenge. It is ok to talk about why you feel that way and revisit what it is that hurt you. But it should not come from place of trying to invalidate. I try to treat others that way and if others don't treat me that way the discussion starts with the premise that my feelings are valid. Now let's fill in the blanks and explore how we got to where we are and share different points of view but don't be dismissive.

In some ways that seems to be more difficult to do these days. With the polarization of society aided by politicians and social media we seem to be ever more inclined to not want to consider alternative view points. Meanwhile, as much as I am wary of absolutes sometimes there are things that are more objective than others and the ability of some more extreme voices to just make up their own facts is rather concerning. Anyway, that is another topic.

 

[policywank]

And yet so it seems to be, in your own words no less!

And I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. I might even go so far as to say that a relationship with no sex that goes on for 20 years is abusive and that her husband is a saint for holding out that long! I mean even saints fuck up occasionally, and once in 20 years isn't a bad record!

Yes. I don't know if there is ever a complete reason or excuse for cheating. But in the case of my friend's husband it was certainly understandable. And as the wife who had neglected their sex life she had to accept that she was part of the problem that led them down that road.

 

[sexyhelene]

ivwanked off my daddy's friend. He said it was fine

 

[Bettytheboo]

I was married for five years, at the end of our marriage I'd gone without sex for a year, while I don't think it's right or justified, I had three affairs while married. It was just for sex.

 

[sexyhelene]

Yeah I fucked my husband's brother last year .. I needed it

 

[womaneater58]

Whether you want to cheat or be friendly, I'm available to help out and would make a great friend.

 

[Nellie60]

Yeah I fucked my husband's brother last year .. I needed it

Are you for real?

 

[Shaglus_Ziegler]

I know this thread was started as a bit of a joke following a similar one about blow jobs, but the responses have gotten me thinking about why I run into so many guys who are ready to try anything outside of their marriage.

I think one of the several reasons why so many married men, especially older ones, engage in mutual masturbation with other men outside of their marriage is that it is way they can break out of pervasively rigid monogamy rules without endangering the health of their spouse. I have met and have read the accounts of so many married men who love their wives, but feel stifled by zero tolerance issues regarding any perceived violation of exclusivity.

I've known married guys who were shamed for masturbating on their own or for watching soft porn on cable TV late at night when they thought their wives were sleeping. I have known men who were admonished for admitting that they thought about having sex with another person. These were good guys who just happened to be married to women who have a very strict set of rules.

The downside of having very strict rules about cheating is that it may end up cutting off all communication about sexual fantasies and provide an incentive for a husband to find another outlet for that part of his psyche. Hand jobs are a way they can do this with very low risk of contracting a disease, especially if they find another married "buddy" who provides exclusivity. These guys are not out looking for another LTR They want to continue in the one that they have committed to.

With all the CDC information on the web, most rational guys understand that casual blow jobs carry a higher disease transmission risk than casual hand jobs. I see a lot of discussion on lit about guys who say they do a lot of casual blow jobs or anal sex. These are not the men I am talking about. I am talking about rational men who care about their wives but feel they need more than what their wives will allow.

Nice breakdown. Your understanding of many men is impressive! Cheers

 

[Beachsyrf]

Texting my GF:

Me: “So, .... you giving a guy a hand job isn’t cheating?”

Her: “No.”

Me: “And what about sucking someone’s cock, is that cheating?”

Her: “Nope ... “

Me: “How come?” ‍

Her: “No penetration. No penetration, no cheating.”

Me thinking about her “not cheating” ....

 

[Beachsyrf]

I'm not certain about the handjob thing .... but I KNOW my gf ... she gets VERY wet when she's sucking cock. If she sucks a guys cock, she's fucking him.

 

[BehindBluEyes]

Does it matter if he cums on your hand?

Yeah, if it has not been discussed then you're crossing the cheating line.

 

[Nellie60]

I'm not certain about the handjob thing .... but I KNOW my gf ... she gets VERY wet when she's sucking cock. If she sucks a guys cock, she's fucking him.

Incredible....any form of intimacy especially physical is definitely in most (99%) people's book cheating. Time to get rid of her (1%) if not already done!

 

[LizVegas79]

Now that I'm married I do consider it cheating - unless we're at a party where that kind of thing is encouraged and expected.

When I was single though I considered it just being friendly.

 

[ShaneoD]

Now that I'm married I do consider it cheating - unless we're at a party where that kind of thing is encouraged and expected.

When I was single though I considered it just being friendly.

I can't resist the urge to ask, most common place to give one?

 

[Nellie60]

Now that I'm married I do consider it cheating - unless we're at a party where that kind of thing is encouraged and expected.

When I was single though I considered it just being friendly.

Yes of course if you are single. But just imagined if you gave another man a handjob he probably wouldn't care but if you were married or in a relationship that would be carnal sin.

 

[SPARTAN047]

Fingering your wife's friends and their daughters is being friendly as long as it's legal age.

 

[CuriousinPennsylvania]

Now that I'm married I do consider it cheating - unless we're at a party where that kind of thing is encouraged and expected.

When I was single though I considered it just being friendly.

Unfortunately, none of the parties I've been invited to have encouraged or expected that giving handjobs was the proper protocol. I've been going to the wrong parties.

It gives the idea of a friendly handshake a whole new appeal. I imagine going through a receiving line with my hard cock sticking out and one after the other they grab and shake it. I probably couldn't make it through before the call goes out for "clean up at the receiving line".

 

[Kim34DD]

I agree. Unfortunately it's cheating lol