Writing in Second Person

[sr71plt]

I have story that I consider second person, but many would consider first person, simply because the "you" character doesn't appear to be a part of the action, simply a person that is addressed by the protagonist. However, because the you character is the antagonist, I think that qualifies the story as second person, even if it is a covertly epistolary style narrative. However, it would also fall in the POV idea of moving in and out of second person, depending on scene interpretation. http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=16218

Nope, your cited story is just about as first person as perspective can get. Everything is from the perspective of the narrator writing as "I."

Here's what your first paragraph would look like if it were written in second person:

The roses are blooming in the rather plain jar on your desk. It's a canning jar,[should be semicolon or a period, not a comma] it once held pickles[,] you think, like the jars that used to line the shelves in your kitchen. The florist thinks you're ridiculous for your regular purchase of three roses, one pale pink, two darker pink, but they remind you so much of Jason[or some other name]. Sometimes you sit here and stare at the sweet smelling flowers and wonder if you're obsessed. Even though you and Jason have several time zones and even more years between each other, you couldn't let him go.

I'd say one of the major problem in using second person is that many of those who think they know what it constitutes--don't.

Here's a quicky definition of second person:

http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/glossary/g/secondperson.htm

And a distinction between voices:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Writing-Styles-for-Fiction:-Which-Voice-to-Use&id=62233

 

[Penelope Street]

Good idea posting some links so we can all have a look at an ostensibly objective source.

In second person point of view, the narrator tells the story to another character using "you"; the story is being told through the addressee's point of view.

That first part, before the semicolon, is pretty much the definition I've heard since high school. That clarification after the semicolon is less clear, but I can see how this might be what Killer Muffin is talking about here:

What defines a second person narrative is how much play "you" gets.

Perhaps some simpler example might highlight exactly where any terminology disagreement begins.

I think we can all agree that I went to the movie is first person and You went to the movie is second person.

Issues of definition seem to arise when both an "I" and a "you" are in the mix.

So what about these?

You and I went to the movie.

I went to the movie with you.

You went to the movie with me.

You and I went to the movie and I enjoyed it.

You and I went to the movie and you enjoyed it.

You and I went to the movie with Jason and he enjoyed it.

 

[Firebrain]

Regardless of definition (and I believe that "second person" holds the consistent subject as "you,"), I think second person can work well for short pieces. I think it has a solid place in erotica for its ability to talk directly to the reader and is good practise for going on to the more difficult notion of using first person and breaking the third wall.

In longer pieces, it gets harder to sustain and tiresome to read.

 

[sr71plt]

So what about these?

You and I went to the movie.

I went to the movie with you.

You went to the movie with me.

You and I went to the movie and I enjoyed it.

You and I went to the movie and you enjoyed it.

You and I went to the movie with Jason and he enjoyed it.

Only the "You went to the movie with me" has the potential of being second person--depending on whose perspective the rest of the piece was written in.

Everything else here is being told from the first-person perspective.

Second person is quite restrictive--hence the problem of writing in it for any length of wordage without frustrating the reader.

 

[Penelope Street]

Only the "You went to the movie with me" has the potential of being second person--depending on whose perspective the rest of the piece was written in.

Everything else here is being told from the first-person perspective.

So in the context of a single sentence, your interpretation of the above definition is that the presence of "I" makes it first person regardless of anything else?

Edited to add:
What then would be the perspective of Jason went to the movie with me?

 

[sr71plt]

So in the context of a single sentence, your interpretation of the above definition is that the presence of "I" makes it first person regardless of anything else?

Edited to add:
What then would be the perspective of Jason went to the movie with me?

this is first-person perspective.

Person is determined by who is doing the perceiving (perceiving = perspective = person), not just by who is doing the action. It's still the "me" that is perceiving the action here. All this has done is push the sentence into the passive voice.

A second-person sentence would be "You loved the movie and wanted me to kiss you that way." Here its the "you" who is perceiving (loved the movie; wanted a kiss).

To get the second person, the narrator has to be thrown into the mind/body of the "you" and feed back what the "you" is perceiving.

If anyone can cite a reputable authority to indicate second person is broader than I said it was (citing sources), by all means do so. Otherwise, I'm the only one who has actually cited any sources on the issue.

 

[Penelope Street]

... I'm the only one who has actually cited any sources on the issue.

I appreciate that you took the time to attempt to explain your position and am especially thankful that you were thoughtful enough to cite a source.



I did some additional reading and found a few sites that appeared to support sr71pit's beliefs and others that seemed to support the opinions apparently held by others. Whether of not any of those sites constitute a reputable authority is another matter. Regardless, I believe the thread's original purpose has long since been served and I doubt rehashing this matter over and over can serve any additional purpose.

For those who wish to read a bit more on the topic, this was the most interesting article I stumbled upon, especially since the authors discuss stories in which they believe second person perspective works.

http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10375

* * *

In hindsight, I see closing this thread was inappropriate and regret having done so. We all make mistakes, and I hope those inconvenienced will forgive me for this one.

 

[thatpixie]

I generally skip stories that are told in second person. It tends to be annoying, and sometimes it's hard to imagine that I have a cock and I'm screwing some chick's brains out. Sooo...yeah. It's a "don't" for me.

 

[LizzyDark]

I think the major problems people run into with writing in second person are:

1.) The story would actually be better told in 1st or 3rd person (usually 1st).
2.) The character that is the "you" isn't distinct enough for the reader to not put themselves in the position.

My suggestion, if you have a second person story you like. Try shifting it to first person and see how it works. If it's better (and it usually will be) skip the second person.

My biggest pet peeve about second person stories is that the "you" is vague and intended to be the reader. A slew of people have already pointed out the problem with doing that so I won't go into it. If you have a character that is so distinct, so well-rounded, and so interesting that the reader won't be inclined to take the "you" as meaning the reader, then you should be fine. Of course, if you've created a character like that, you might need to try switching to third person limited, because it'll probably be better that way.

 

[yeti8080k]

Second person is actually used I think, most extensively (and effectively) in interactive story telling. There's a site affiliated with Literotica called Chyoo that's exactly that. Choose-your-own-adventure stories also used to be immensely popular when I was a kid, and those were all second person narration.

 

[SubTrainer]

Bright Lights, Big City

"Bright Lights, Big City" is the only recent book that comes to mind of second-person story telling that really caught an audience. Unfortunately, I think it is the exception that proves the rule: It's generally a verbal method, a highly esoteric way to write, and not generally advised.

I think it's even less likely to work in erotica because erotic stories need to create some kind of intimacy, and direct experience (first person), and observing (third person), are easier ways to do that.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Perhaps some simpler example might highlight exactly where any terminology disagreement begins.

I think we can all agree that I went to the movie is first person and You went to the movie is second person.

Issues of definition seem to arise when both an "I" and a "you" are in the mix.

So what about these?

You and I went to the movie. You and I = we (1st pers plural)

I went to the movie with you.
You went to the movie with me. ambiguous
You and I went to the movie and I enjoyed it. again, 1st pers plural

Quote:
Originally Posted by fictionwriting.about.com @ that website
In second person point of view, the narrator tells the story to another character using "you"; the story is being told through the addressee's point of view.

That first part, before the semicolon, is pretty much the definition I've heard since high school. That clarification after the semicolon is less clear, but I can see how this might be what Killer Muffin is talking about here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerMuffin
What defines a second person narrative is how much play "you" gets.

No, the narrator is a distinct person from the 'addressee': 'You came into the room' separates the two but the narration isn't direct, it's indirect. 'I saw you' is 1st POV but 'you saw the ugly man in the corner' is 2nd POV. The narrator is 'addressing' the protag personally.

The fallacy often expressed here is that letter style is 2nd person: it's not. Because 'you' is both a subject and object pronoun we get confused. You can't write 'me love he' but you can write 'I love you' and ' I hope you love me'. Letters are 1st person and, I must admit, I can't think of many 2nd person POV's I've seen on Lit.

KM and Glynndah wrote good stories but neither are remotely 2nd POV.

 

[braincum]

The reason one writes in the first person...

...is analogous to why we write in the active voice.

Unlike other iterations of fiction, the type of sensuous, extemporaneous actions we describe as we actively grasp, thrust, knead, lick, kiss and fondle must necessarily be stated so.

By using the passive voice, say, or the second person singular, serves only to take the reader a step or even two back from the action.

That's all I meant o say.

 

[bronzeage]

It is my personal opinion that second person is irritating the read after the second sentence. The narrator is in the reader's head, sitting behind his eyes. After a paragraph, schizophrenia sets in.

I think the source of most second person narratives is cyber sex chat logs, "You come into the bedroom and see me lying on the bed."

This only works with a limited and very appreciative audience.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

It is my personal opinion that second person is irritating the read after the second sentence. The narrator is in the reader's head, sitting behind his eyes. After a paragraph, schizophrenia sets in.

I think the source of most second person narratives is cyber sex chat logs, "You come into the bedroom and see me lying on the bed."

This only works with a limited and very appreciative audience.

I think, as sr says, that second person POV is misunderstood. Often 1st person is mistakenly interpreted as 2nd person. If you'd added a second sentence, " I see in your eyes that my nakedness is driving you crazy", then where are we?

Again, I go back to the point that having the subject and the object pronoun being the same frightens the bejasus out of us.

I hate I/you stories. I haven't got a twelve inch cock with balls that hang to my knees (difficult in pantyhose) so put a name to the antag.

I am not a fan of first person. It's usually done badly, but I can live with it.

Try;
"you came into the room. You thought you had been there before but when the naked girl appeared from behind the screen, your mind went blanck."

That's second person. The narrator puts the addressee into the POV -surely?

 

[elfin_odalisque]

It is my personal opinion that second person is irritating the read after the second sentence. The narrator is in the reader's head, sitting behind his eyes. After a paragraph, schizophrenia sets in.

I think the source of most second person narratives is cyber sex chat logs, "You come into the bedroom and see me lying on the bed."

This only works with a limited and very appreciative audience.

I think, as sr says, that second person POV is misunderstood. Often 1st person is mistakenly interpreted as 2nd person. If you'd added a second sentence, " I see in your eyes that my nakedness is driving you crazy", then where are we?

Again, I go back to the point that having the subject and the object pronoun being the same frightens the bejasus out of us.

I hate I/you stories. I haven't got a twelve inch cock with balls that hang to my knees (difficult in pantyhose) so put a name to the antag.

I am not a fan of first person. It's usually done badly, sr thinks it's emotional (true in really good writers) but here it is just used as a junior school trick, but I can live with it.

Try;
"you came into the room. You thought you had been there before but when the naked girl appeared from behind the screen, your mind went blank."

That's second person. The narrator puts the addressee into the POV -surely?

 

[roomfor1more]

Personally, I find stories written in the second person boring and difficult to follow. The reason why I feel this is because second person amounts to telling the reader how to behave or act. In some ways, I feel, it can be argued that second person is quite authoritarian in tone. Also I feel 2nd person disengages the reader and it does not bring the reader into the story. Third, I feel, second person is very limited and repetitive since the use of the word you is used a lot in 2nd person. Finally I feel 2nd person does has it applications in advertising or informing someone about a product. However I do not feel 2nd person is an effective way of writing a story.

 

[sr71plt]

Yep, all those reasons. Plus (as this thread has illustrated), very few even know how to write it. They fall out of it frequently into first or third person and make a hash of it all.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

To summarize: Almost no one does it well, and almost no one likes reading stories written in that voice. It would appear that writing in second person is an exercise in self-indulgence.

 

[lovecraft68]

It is my personal opinion that second person is irritating the read after the second sentence. The narrator is in the reader's head, sitting behind his eyes. After a paragraph, schizophrenia sets in.

I think the source of most second person narratives is cyber sex chat logs, "You come into the bedroom and see me lying on the bed."

This only works with a limited and very appreciative audience.

To me reading second person gives me the eerie feeling I am being put under.

You come through the door and I take your coat

I tell you to find a seat and get comfortable

You sit in the chair by the window and I sit across from you.

You seem very relaxed as we talk

Very relaxed, in fact so relaxed that you are getting sleepy, very, very sleepy...

 

[spotatl]

I'm new to this writing thing but here are my opinions about this. The first story I wrote definitely leaned heavily on the second person stuff just because I'm an auditory person and it was easier for me to get it down on paper as if I were talking dirty to someone. But the more I think about it, unless you are writing for a very specific audience then second person would get tiring quickly unless you have a story that is truly easy to get immersed in. Past that any little thing that you don't identify with in the narrative could jettison someone out and lose the stream. I put my first story to one of the volunteer editors but I have a feeling I'll be rewriting it to take that part out of it.