Writing, Writers, and Wordy Things

This made me think of Jeffrey Ford.

I'm going to disagree with some of this. A huge fund of experiences is helpful but there are authors who've penned brilliant, unforgettable stories who have lived unremarkable lives. The best writers, in my opinion, tend to be keen observers--they can create entire worlds form a few overheard conversations.

I'm curious about the sentence in bold. Can you elaborate?

. :)


The best writing always features a HOW TO/Resolution.

In THE WINTER OF OUR DISCONTENT (Steinbeck) One friend helps another friend drink himself to death, and inherits the dead friends wealth.

In THE COLONELS LADY by Elmore Leonard a VIP wife is captured by a renegade Apache and stabs him with his knife when he rapes her.

FAREWELL, MY LOVELY (Raymond Chandler) reveals how an ultra rich woman conceals her past.

WAR & PEACE details how Natasha progresses from child to decadent youth to maturity.

My latest scribble (ONE MANS TRASH) details how a powerful politician manipulates a younger lover to murder her crazy-violent son.
 
The best writing always features a HOW TO/Resolution.

In THE WINTER OF OUR DISCONTENT (Steinbeck) One friend helps another friend drink himself to death, and inherits the dead friends wealth.

In THE COLONELS LADY by Elmore Leonard a VIP wife is captured by a renegade Apache and stabs him with his knife when he rapes her.

FAREWELL, MY LOVELY (Raymond Chandler) reveals how an ultra rich woman conceals her past.

WAR & PEACE details how Natasha progresses from child to decadent youth to maturity.

My latest scribble (ONE MANS TRASH) details how a powerful politician manipulates a younger lover to murder her crazy-violent son.

you associate yourself with steinbeck? *snort* :rolleyes: you came to lit as a troll, jbj. you might have pretensions now, but you're a troll at heart.
 
you associate yourself with steinbeck? *snort* :rolleyes: you came to lit as a troll, jbj. you might have pretensions now, but you're a troll at heart.

And youre my Limey bitch Carny Man.

Okay, this is why I started this thread in the BDSM cafe, to avoid this sort of thing. Everyone is welcome here, as are all opinions and thoughts relevant to the topic. Name calling on either side is not welcome.

I realize I can't force anyone to do anything but I ask that out of respect for the other posters that you take any personal arguments to the Author Hangout. Thank you.
 
@Keroin: I dunno, it honestly just happened one day. :eek: I think it's because I was working on something at the time that I would have preferred to be a full-fledged animated series, but I didn't quite have access to a full animation studio and budget, so I went with the next best thing. :B

I love those kind of accidents! I'd say it's a great time to be a comics writer. The Internet has really opened up that avenue. It'll be interesting to see where you go with this!

The one thing grad school (and undergrad, too, really) taught me: How to bullshit, and bullshit well. :p

Money well spent, then. ;)

Also, not going to lie, as much as I hate my job some days, I love going through the search engines and finding all these sites that either belong to me or that I have done for other people ranking super-high for their keywords. :cool:

As you should. It's an awesome feeling to do something well and see tangible proof of your efforts. Good on you, BB.

a huge plus is that i picked up some paid work - a huge boost for confidence as well as bringing in a bit of money.

Congrats! That is fantastic.

as for improvement: all areas, in particular cutting out so many damnable commas!

Ah yes, the damned comma. I know it well. I'm always shocked to go back over work I've edited several times and still find wayward commas.

"I'm gonna write the hottest story fucken ever"

100k words and 2 sex scenes later

"What even is sex"

I think I'm at this weird point where non-sexual scenes written like sex scenes are more interesting to me? Maybe it's a phase. Though I'm sure everyone could stand to write better sex. :rolleyes:

HA! Agreed all around.

i'm able to write the kind of bland stuff i need to for work.

i'm able to write to carry on conversations in on-line places like this.

i'm able to write in support of my other hobby (the writing it requires is more like technical writing).

I'm so happy to hear you managed to overcome your fear, BrightlyGo. I won't pry, of course, but your hobby has me very curious. ;)

i still kinda hate it, its almost traumatic - but cathartic, i suppose

Cathartic is good. I think to some degree writing is about making sense of the world and of ourselves.

of my fiction writing: Dialogue. Also, i guess, being able to write when i want to, rather than when i need to, would be nice.

Writing compelling and believable dialogue is difficult. I find that dialogue is an area that benefits most from editing. Think of it in layers. Your first draft is where your characters say exactly what they're thinking. Second layer (draft) is when you look at the conversation and figure out what they wouldn't actually say for any number of reasons (history, relationship to the other character, setting, etc.) then you find ways for them to say it without saying it (facial expressions, body language, words with double meanings, etc). Third layer (draft), you hone that even more and focus on making sure the unique voice of the character comes through in their speech.

Yeah, complicated. :)

But consider -- how often do people say exactly what they mean or what they feel?

I've been ridiculously busy at work these last few months. One day a little over a month ago, I was home sick with a cold, and I suddenly started writing. I couldn't help it. It was cathartic. I wrote 8000 words that day. It was an amazing feeling. In the next couple of months, I will be between contracts with work, so I am hoping to devote more time to it. It's seriously all I can think of doing in my spare time. I don't care for watching TV or playing computer games, socialising, cleaning the house anymore. I just want to write, but I am too tired in the evenings after work!

I have never felt so obsessive about doing something before. I relish it.

Another vote for "cathartic"! Enjoy. It's a rare and beautiful thing when a story uses you to write itself. In the words of DH Lawrence: "Not I, not I, but the wind that blows through me!"

Science fiction. Right now I am tossing up whether to make it a graphic novel (my original intention), or perhaps an illustrated novel, such as light novels popular in Japan. I would just write a normal novel, but I think so visually, and I do also have artistic abilities.

As I mentioned to KoPilot, this is such a fantastic time to be a "visual writer". If you've got artistic abilities, go with it! (I am jealous ;))

I want to get better at painting a picture with words rather than just stating what is happening. "Show rather than tell", as my English teachers used to say.

Yep. One of the golden rules.

One of the tricks I use to put me "in" a scene I'm writing is to search for the sensory details. (This is particularly helpful when world building for sci-fi). What are the smells? Does your character have to cover their nose because of the stench? Is it cold? Do goosebumps rise on your character's flesh? Etc.

In any case, I am very much a novice, but I can learn!

The learning never stops. ;)

The best writing always features a HOW TO/Resolution.

In THE WINTER OF OUR DISCONTENT (Steinbeck) One friend helps another friend drink himself to death, and inherits the dead friends wealth.

In THE COLONELS LADY by Elmore Leonard a VIP wife is captured by a renegade Apache and stabs him with his knife when he rapes her.

FAREWELL, MY LOVELY (Raymond Chandler) reveals how an ultra rich woman conceals her past.

WAR & PEACE details how Natasha progresses from child to decadent youth to maturity.

My latest scribble (ONE MANS TRASH) details how a powerful politician manipulates a younger lover to murder her crazy-violent son.

This is interesting to consider. I'll try to see how this relates to the books I enjoy most.
 
I love Chuck Wendig's thoughts on writing. (Also, I just finished his novel Blackbirds, which was fantastic).

This is one of his recent posts on story you might find interesting. My favourite bit is the difference between story and plot.

"The story is the apple. The plot is the arrow through it."

Ten Thoughts on Story
 
Cathartic is good. I think to some degree writing is about making sense of the world and of ourselves.
Don't underestimate the power of writing as therapy, too.

As I mentioned to KoPilot, this is such a fantastic time to be a "visual writer". If you've got artistic abilities, go with it! (I am jealous ;))
Yes, do it if you can! Though keep in mind two things: 1. drawing a comic isn't like drawing anything else, not even storyboards, and 2. there is no money in comics. It's a rich man's hobby and a desperate man's comfort.
 
BrightlyGo. I won't pry, of course, but your hobby has me very curious. ;)
Whatever you're thinking is almost certainly more interesting than the reality. ;)


Edit: funny thing, another regular poster on here recently admitted to the same hobby that i'm keeping secret.

Writing compelling and believable dialogue is difficult. I find that dialogue is an area that benefits most from editing. Think of it in layers. Your first draft is where your characters say exactly what they're thinking. Second layer (draft) is when you look at the conversation and figure out what they wouldn't actually say for any number of reasons (history, relationship to the other character, setting, etc.) then you find ways for them to say it without saying it (facial expressions, body language, words with double meanings, etc). Third layer (draft), you hone that even more and focus on making sure the unique voice of the character comes through in their speech.

Yeah, complicated. :)
Wow. That sounds like a really good technique - i don't know if i'd be able to do it... hmm... maybe i could. Thanks.

But consider -- how often do people say exactly what they mean or what they feel?
Nod. Handling emotional states is also a problem for me. My characters seem to be unrealistically mercurial, cascading through emotions too quickly.
 
Last edited:
Time is the enemy, isn't it? I'm always impressed, and amazed, at authors who have small children and "real" jobs and still manage to publish novels. It boggles the mind.



See above. :)

Yep, time and practice. Natural talent is a thing, for sure, but time and practice is where the "magic" happens.

Pretty much. Talent just gets you in the door, it doesn't replace hard work. *shrugs* Having an attention span longer than a two year old is helpful, too. lol
 
Whatever you're thinking is almost certainly more interesting than the reality. ;)

Wow. That sounds like a really good technique - i don't know if i'd be able to do it... hmm... maybe i could. Thanks.

Nod. Handling emotional states is also a problem for me. My characters seem to be unrealistically mercurial, cascading through emotions too quickly.

George V.Higgins is reputed to be the best dialog writer there ever was. Elmore Leonard was a popular and successful author 20 years before Higgins published anything, and Leonard says Higgins taught him how to write dialog. I agree. Higgins says he learned dialog from John O'Hara.
 
Don't underestimate the power of writing as therapy, too.


Yes, do it if you can! Though keep in mind two things: 1. drawing a comic isn't like drawing anything else, not even storyboards, and 2. there is no money in comics. It's a rich man's hobby and a desperate man's comfort.

I have a day job, so I'm not worried about making money :)
In the end, if it's going to see the light of day, I'm thinking of just putting it up online, weekly webcomic style. I'll slap a PayPal donate button on it, and if it gets anywhere, fine, but if not, no harm done.
 
As I mentioned to KoPilot, this is such a fantastic time to be a "visual writer". If you've got artistic abilities, go with it! (I am jealous ;))

When I was younger, people always said I should be a cartoonist, but I was like "Nah, there's no money in being an artist. I'm gonna be a scientist!"

Famous last words.

Anyway, drawing a person is easy. Drawing the same person again from another angle with a different emotion, but still looking like the same person is hard! They say it just takes practice. I'm practicing, and it is slowly working.

My biggest worry about the whole thing is that my story is stupid.
 
Don't underestimate the power of writing as therapy, too.

Never!

Wow. That sounds like a really good technique - i don't know if i'd be able to do it... hmm... maybe i could. Thanks.

Give it a try. Another thing I love to do is eavesdrop on conversations. The more real life dialogue--where you're not involved--that you hear, the better your ear for it will become.

Nod. Handling emotional states is also a problem for me. My characters seem to be unrealistically mercurial, cascading through emotions too quickly.

Everything about character boils down to motivation. To know your characters' motivations, you have to really know your characters outside of the story. There are lots of techniques writers use for this - interviews, questionnaires, journaling "in character". The deeper you understand your characters, the more their emotions will unfold naturally in a scene.

Pretty much. Talent just gets you in the door, it doesn't replace hard work. *shrugs* Having an attention span longer than a two year old is helpful, too. lol

Ha! Yes, attention span is helpful.

Anyway, drawing a person is easy. Drawing the same person again from another angle with a different emotion, but still looking like the same person is hard! They say it just takes practice. I'm practicing, and it is slowly working.

Mine all look like stick people. :)

My biggest worry about the whole thing is that my story is stupid.

What specifically do you think is stupid about your story? Is it not interesting enough? Not believable? Characters not compelling?
 
I've never been brave enough to publicly share something I have written. My work feels so personal. I doubt I could ever conjure something that hasn't been done before, but it's still something I put my time and effort into and so I'm downright sentimental about it. I need to lighten up.
 
I've never been brave enough to publicly share something I have written. My work feels so personal. I doubt I could ever conjure something that hasn't been done before, but it's still something I put my time and effort into and so I'm downright sentimental about it. I need to lighten up.

I have that problem, too, when it comes to something that's not work stuff.

To be honest, I'm even kind of temperamental about my work stuff. My best customers are also friends, and they know how to ask for changes without wounding my massive ego :)D), but with people I don't know that well, I sometimes take it as a personal affront to me when they ask for changes. I never let on to them, of course, but that doesn't mean there's not some righteous indignation shouted at my laptop's monitor occasionally. ;)

Luckily, it doesn't happen that often. All my long-term customers are muy excelente. It's the drive-bys and the one-offs that drive me to drink sometimes.
 
Okay, this is why I started this thread in the BDSM cafe, to avoid this sort of thing. Everyone is welcome here, as are all opinions and thoughts relevant to the topic. Name calling on either side is not welcome.

I realize I can't force anyone to do anything but I ask that out of respect for the other posters that you take any personal arguments to the Author Hangout. Thank you.

ok. noted.
 
Mine all look like stick people. :)

that worked for Lowry! :D

I've never been brave enough to publicly share something I have written. My work feels so personal. I doubt I could ever conjure something that hasn't been done before, but it's still something I put my time and effort into and so I'm downright sentimental about it. I need to lighten up.

you're probably right about it having been done before, but you can always put your own slant on a subject; you can create your own characters and run wild. i started a fantasy piece the other day - a sniff of work that came to nothing - and created two characters that then, as the idea unfolded, led me into a whole new world. fantasy has never been something i've looked at, apart from reading neil gaiman, and i never thought i could be bothered with writing anything. but now, with an outline in mind...

okay, went of an bit of a 'me me me' tangent there. sorry.

why not put something up on lit and see how it goes? perhaps use another ID until you find your feet? be wary of Loving Wives though; if you're not familiar with the regular crowd the feedback can be a shocker!
 
I love writing, I've written stories and poems ever since I can remember (ie, I remember writing a 2-page story in 1st grade). I am not published and will probably never try; I write for me, and a lot of my novels end up a bit too personal for me to ever want to put out there to the world, even with a pen-name.

I've participated in National Novel Writing Month (I remember a few other people on here have as well) since 2003, and I've won 7 times. .... Which means I have 7 50k+ unfinished novels sitting around not being worked on, because I keep getting new ideas.

Last month, however, I passed what *I* personally feel is a big writing milestone, at least for me. Before my current novel, the longest thing I'd ever written was 71k. Last month I randomly checked the wordcount on my current novel and it's at 105k. I *never* thought I'd reached 100k with one novel!!

I write mostly adult stuff, most of my characters have at least a passing interest in bdsm and sometimes it's a large focus in the story. A recent story idea that I haven't gotten very far with is sort of a... non-fiction turned fiction? The first two chapters are pretty much word for word an incident that happened when I was in middle school, and then the story branches off into what I think could've or might've happened if my fears back then had come true.

With this current, 100k+ novel, it's.... complicated, lol. It deals a bit with alternate realities, when the main character realizes that the woman she just met is *supposed* to be just a character on a television show, and it turns out there's an alternate reality where almost all tv shows are actually real. But that's somewhat of a side-story, it's just one more thing that they have to deal with in their really-complicated relationship.

*ahem* As you can see, I have no trouble talking about my stories. As for anyone *reading* them, only my friends in a small online writing community ever get to read any of it.
 
What specifically do you think is stupid about your story? Is it not interesting enough? Not believable? Characters not compelling?

I think the characters are okay, and I'm really trying to create a rich, believable world (as believable as sci-fi can be). I worry more that the overall concept isn't any good or that some of it is cliche. Stupid was a bad word!

It's hard to tell what the overall quality is until I have some kind of mostly complete draft! Ideas floating around one's head and something actually written down are two different things!
 
Personality is 90% of writing or anything else.

I'm not the most audacious human that ever was but I'm right up there near the top. In grad school I took a variety of psychological tests (larval PhDs always need guinea pigs) and two traits brand me permanently: Only dead people are less anxious and fearful than me, and I'm uninhibited. JUST DO IT is my creed.

I put it out there and don't think twice about its reception. NOT because opinions and feelings aren't important to me, but it never occurs to me that I may ruffle feathers or hurt feelings. And fighting, for me, isn't combat, its sport. So I love the gladiators at LW because I'm a gladiator.

And I don't know how to teach others to put their stuff out there and feel okay with the feedback.
 
And I don't know how to teach others to put their stuff out there and feel okay with the feedback.

I think you just deal with it or you stop putting your stuff out there. Not everything has to be easy or even feel good in this world. Lots of writers and other folks who put their thoughts out there (comics, storytellers) have terrible self esteem, but the drive to tell their stories is stronger than their self-protective instincts. Or they're masochists. Wait, actually it's the second one. Ha.
 
Give it a try. Another thing I love to do is eavesdrop on conversations. The more real life dialogue--where you're not involved--that you hear, the better your ear for it will become.
In one sense i guess i do this a lot - i'm 'the quiet one' in most groups - but i put a lot of effort into trying to understand what people mean (it's not easy for me to 'read' people, so i have to go on what they say), but don't pay attention to how they say it or how conversations flow. Thanks.

Everything about character boils down to motivation. To know your characters' motivations, you have to really know your characters outside of the story. There are lots of techniques writers use for this - interviews, questionnaires, journaling "in character". The deeper you understand your characters, the more their emotions will unfold naturally in a scene.
i do tend to come up with a lot of 'backstory,' so motivations are there, feelings though, are mysterious things. ;)
 
Man, realizing that an enormously pivotal point of the story needs to get thrown out or completely replaced always hurts like the dickens.
 
I think you just deal with it or you stop putting your stuff out there. Not everything has to be easy or even feel good in this world. Lots of writers and other folks who put their thoughts out there (comics, storytellers) have terrible self esteem, but the drive to tell their stories is stronger than their self-protective instincts. Or they're masochists. Wait, actually it's the second one. Ha.

Anthony Weiner oughta train people.
 
Back
Top