Writing, Writers, and Wordy Things

[Keroin]

ok. noted.

Thanks for being considerate.

 

[marieR19]

Man, realizing that an enormously pivotal point of the story needs to get thrown out or completely replaced always hurts like the dickens.

Oh goodness yes. That's one of the main reasons I have such a hard time with the editing process... Finding entire scenes that just don't fit or need to be re-worked can be so disheartening.

In my current novel one of the biggest "secret that will change everything is revealed" story-arcs... I had it completely thought out in my head, knew exactly how each character should react and just how serious the fallout would be, and I really *like* the way I wrote it, there are paragraphs in there I am SO proud of.... But one of the characters has basically balked at it, and I realize now that there's a point where the storyline gets pretty out of character for her, and I'm going to have to re-write all of that... And I REALLY don't look forward to that.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

Oh goodness yes. That's one of the main reasons I have such a hard time with the editing process... Finding entire scenes that just don't fit or need to be re-worked can be so disheartening.

In my current novel one of the biggest "secret that will change everything is revealed" story-arcs... I had it completely thought out in my head, knew exactly how each character should react and just how serious the fallout would be, and I really *like* the way I wrote it, there are paragraphs in there I am SO proud of.... But one of the characters has basically balked at it, and I realize now that there's a point where the storyline gets pretty out of character for her, and I'm going to have to re-write all of that... And I REALLY don't look forward to that.

would it be possible to come up with a valid reason why she balks? some aversion of hers, an irrational fear or phobia that prevents her from doing whatever it is she's meant to do? if you could weave elements of this fear into the story it might save on re-writes. just an idea. probably useless.

good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[intothewoods]

Soo I've got some great characters, a few good scenes, some interesting themes...something is missing though...something...what is it...oh, yeah...PLOT.

 

[BiBunny]

Soo I've got some great characters, a few good scenes, some interesting themes...something is missing though...something...what is it...oh, yeah...PLOT.

And that's exactly why I can't write fiction.

 

[intothewoods]

And that's exactly why I can't write fiction.

Yes you can. You know what? I took part in something that forced me to have a particular work finished by a particular time (I'm vague-posting but go with it - point is it was public) and I actually got it done. There was a goddamn plot. And I will figure out this one too or I will go fucking bonkers. Ahem.

Anyhoo, just saying, we all need to figure out a way to break through our barriers.

Okay - got it - I think someone should come up with a plot for me.

 

[Keroin]

Okay - got it - I think someone should come up with a plot for me.

Done!

 

[KoPilot]

Soo I've got some great characters, a few good scenes, some interesting themes...something is missing though...something...what is it...oh, yeah...PLOT.

Story of my life!

Thought you all might appreciate this one:

 

[Keroin]

I think the characters are okay, and I'm really trying to create a rich, believable world (as believable as sci-fi can be). I worry more that the overall concept isn't any good or that some of it is cliche. Stupid was a bad word!

LOL, that's why I asked for specifics.

Characters are what drive stories, they're what make the reader turn pages and invest in the story. Of course world building is critical to sci-fi but I think that drum has been banged too loudly as of late. I like to start with characters and conflict. (Protag --> goal --> Obstacles). You can worldbuild from there. I think there's been too much emphasis on creating world first, then finding the story.

The other important thing I'd mention is that readers will overlook some worldbuilding sins, and will buy into your world quicker if the characters grip them.

Just my two cents, FWIW.

It's hard to tell what the overall quality is until I have some kind of mostly complete draft! Ideas floating around one's head and something actually written down are two different things!

You are NOT kidding there!

 

[Keroin]

So, one thing that you get from actually finishing and publishing your first novel: You know what craziness to expect with the others that follow.

I am at that phase where I have lost all objectivity about the manuscript. The structural editing is done, the copy editing is done, the final read through is done, and now the final polish goes on before we send off to the typesetter/formatter. I have read the manuscript 487 times. It all looks like a bunch of stupid words to me.

This is the "WHAT THE FUCK WAS I THINKING? THIS IS CRAP! PEOPLE WILL HATE IT!" phase of writing.

I have to say, it was worse the first time around.

Progress!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Story of my life!

Thought you all might appreciate this one:

I love this-- and some of those things are exactly exact quotes from my head right this minute.

 

[KoPilot]

So, one thing that you get from actually finishing and publishing your first novel: You know what craziness to expect with the others that follow.

I am at that phase where I have lost all objectivity about the manuscript. The structural editing is done, the copy editing is done, the final read through is done, and now the final polish goes on before we send off to the typesetter/formatter. I have read the manuscript 487 times. It all looks like a bunch of stupid words to me.

This is the "WHAT THE FUCK WAS I THINKING? THIS IS CRAP! PEOPLE WILL HATE IT!" phase of writing.

I have to say, it was worse the first time around.

Progress!

Man, working on comics is just like this. After spending 6 hours drawing a page, which translates to half page of script that you wrote 3 months prior, pacing and context basically lose all meaning...

 

[intothewoods]

Done!

LOVE it - and this: "The story starts when your protagonist meets someone from the internet. Another character is a runaway who is from the future." is almost my plot! LOL.
Almost, not quite.

KoPilot - LOVE THAT - hilarious.

So how do you all choose titles? I think I came up with a good one last night, but we shall see. I basically wrote down a bunch of the themes and stuff in the work, and then started free associating and then something catchy popped into my ahead.

 

[Keroin]

So how do you all choose titles? I think I came up with a good one last night, but we shall see. I basically wrote down a bunch of the themes and stuff in the work, and then started free associating and then something catchy popped into my ahead.

Some just come naturally, others I mess around with. Sometimes I'll ask beta readers for suggestions. Theme is a good place to start, though.

In the case of the recent novel, it was a working title. My writing partner and I kept putting off deciding on a "real" title but after more than two years, Warpworld had grown on us.

The title for the second book in the series came after weeks of brainstorming. We came up with some real stinkers in those weeks, lol. Good fun.

 

[midwestyankee]

Some just come naturally, others I mess around with. Sometimes I'll ask beta readers for suggestions. Theme is a good place to start, though.

In the case of the recent novel, it was a working title. My writing partner and I kept putting off deciding on a "real" title but after more than two years, Warpworld had grown on us.

The title for the second book in the series came after weeks of brainstorming. We came up with some real stinkers in those weeks, lol. Good fun.

In my limited experience, I usually have to force myself to generate some stinkers before the right one shows up.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm struggling with a "villain." I mean, not a classic villain, but in my mind this character represents a morally bankrupt philosophy and behaves in an unethical way. I can't get insider her head because I don't get what makes people cling to a philosophy of medical care that isn't supported by science. And there are plenty of people like that who are confronted with the evidence and just ignore it. No, refuse to believe it? Don't believe the source, perhaps, because it's "the man" or they suspect bias. I'm so on the other side of this at this point, that I don't have a good feel for this character, and she's crucial to the story. But she's flat.

ETA - okay...maybe I just need to really think of her as a sociopath. Or, um, psychopath? I always confuse those two. ANYHOO. Maybe she should just seem straight up OFF from the beginning.

Sorry, just thinking...strategizing...

 

[BrightlyGo]

I'm struggling with a "villain." I mean, not a classic villain, but in my mind this character represents a morally bankrupt philosophy and behaves in an unethical way. I can't get insider her head because I don't get what makes people cling to a philosophy of medical care that isn't supported by science. And there are plenty of people like that who are confronted with the evidence and just ignore it. No, refuse to believe it? Don't believe the source, perhaps, because it's "the man" or they suspect bias. I'm so on the other side of this at this point, that I don't have a good feel for this character, and she's crucial to the story. But she's flat.

A lot of things:

Faith: a religion or a mentor/hero tells her 'this is what works,' she believes, fervently, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

Guilt: Someone she cared died because of (in her mind 'in spite of') a decision she made, abandoning the philosophy she clings to would be admitting that fault, and the guilt would destroy her.

Ego: Her life's work and professional reputation are all based on the philosophy.

Paranoia: The lack of support from 'science' is the result of a conspiracy against her!

Greed: Her wealth and professional career are all based on the philosophy, she'd be ruined if it were completely discredited.

Morality: She believes that the alternative philosophy being 'supported by science' is unethical or immoral.

 

[intothewoods]

A lot of things:

Faith: a religion or a mentor/hero tells her 'this is what works,' she believes, fervently, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

Guilt: Someone she cared died because of (in her mind 'in spite of') a decision she made, abandoning the philosophy she clings to would be admitting that fault, and the guilt would destroy her.

Ego: Her life's work and professional reputation are all based on the philosophy.

Paranoia: The lack of support from 'science' is the result of a conspiracy against her!

Greed: Her wealth and professional career are all based on the philosophy, she'd be ruined if it were completely discredited.

Morality: She believes that the alternative philosophy being 'supported by science' is unethical or immoral.

Thank you - you know what's weird? I just needed to talk this out to get it but I think I wasn't committing to her as a villain. I kept trying to relate, as if she were going to be my friend. She's not a good person. I got her now.

 

[sunandshadow]

Soo I've got some great characters, a few good scenes, some interesting themes...something is missing though...something...what is it...oh, yeah...PLOT.

And that's exactly why I can't write fiction.

This, totally. *sigh* I enjoy reading How-To-Write books, but I've never yet found one that actually says: "Not sure what should happen in your story? Do these steps to figure out what your subconscious wants to happen." Even books that are supposedly about story structure, fixing plot holes, fixing writers' block, or getting in touch with your inner creative self have a very vexing tendency to skip right over this question like it doesn't exist.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This, totally. *sigh* I enjoy reading How-To-Write books, but I've never yet found one that actually says: "Not sure what should happen in your story? Do these steps to figure out what your subconscious wants to happen." Even books that are supposedly about story structure, fixing plot holes, fixing writers' block, or getting in touch with your inner creative self have a very vexing tendency to skip right over this question like it doesn't exist.

Amen

The missing links are CONFOUNDING, and the different meanings of words and actions. That is, Characters and Events aren't what they appear to be or characters aren't on the same page. I define CONFOUNDING as anything with multiple meanings or 'correct answers' or possible outcomes.

Here's a real life example of what I mean: My supervisor called me to her office to discuss whatever (I don't recall), and while we're talking she stands up, hikes her skirt above her waist, and adjusts her panties. Lotsa possible meanings in that.

So! The recipe is: Determine all the meanings and possible reactions, and let your subconscious pick what to go with.

 

[Keroin]

We are 99% ready to send EVERYTHING to our graphics and formatting guy. Manuscript, front and back matter, changes to the cover...everything. Literally just waiting on one email and then away it goes.

Whew. I really want a week to just breathe without my mind racing.

One cool thing we did that I'm really pleased about is a page for reader reviews of the first book. We decided that we need to fully embrace our indie-ness. So instead of trying to get "important" professional people to give us reviews, we chose to use pull quotes from reader reviews. I contacted all the reviewers we chose to get permission and every single one was THRILLED to be included.

I love this. I feel like a mini-revolutionary for bringing our readers into the fold. They should feel special. "Important" professional people review books because they're paid to do it. Joe Reader does it just because he LOVES books. I think there should be some recognition for that.

 

[midwestyankee]

We are 99% ready to send EVERYTHING to our graphics and formatting guy. Manuscript, front and back matter, changes to the cover...everything. Literally just waiting on one email and then away it goes.

Whew. I really want a week to just breathe without my mind racing.

One cool thing we did that I'm really pleased about is a page for reader reviews of the first book. We decided that we need to fully embrace our indie-ness. So instead of trying to get "important" professional people to give us reviews, we chose to use pull quotes from reader reviews. I contacted all the reviewers we chose to get permission and every single one was THRILLED to be included.

I love this. I feel like a mini-revolutionary for bringing our readers into the fold. They should feel special. "Important" professional people review books because they're paid to do it. Joe Reader does it just because he LOVES books. I think there should be some recognition for that.

Consider this idea borrowed.

 

[Keroin]

Consider this idea borrowed.

Happy to share. That's what I love about being indie, too - community.

 

[KoPilot]

Happy to share. That's what I love about being indie, too - community.

Have you ever run into anyone in the book world who seemed to think that "indie" was a bad word? It happens in webcomics all the time.

There's like... this category of web cartoonist who are generally older middle-class men, whose goal in life is to emulate the lifestyle of the 1960's syndicated newspaper strip cartoonist as much as possible, and it's like... you got to be kidding me. That world doesn't exist anymore. You can't be holding that idea up in front of young cartoonists' faces and be telling them "this is what you need to shoot for to consider yourself successful". "Indie" is a bad word to these guys.

 

[Keroin]

Have you ever run into anyone in the book world who seemed to think that "indie" was a bad word? It happens in webcomics all the time.

There's like... this category of web cartoonist who are generally older middle-class men, whose goal in life is to emulate the lifestyle of the 1960's syndicated newspaper strip cartoonist as much as possible, and it's like... you got to be kidding me. That world doesn't exist anymore. You can't be holding that idea up in front of young cartoonists' faces and be telling them "this is what you need to shoot for to consider yourself successful". "Indie" is a bad word to these guys.

Oh yeah, the stigma of "indie" is a loooooong way from gone. The scandal, started by John Locke, about puppet (paid) 5 star reviews set us back a lot, too. It helps that some big names have indie published or have chosen a hybrid route but you'll still get more derision than praise from the legacy publishing crowd if you're not a known quantity.

This is going to change. It's going to take some time, and there's always going to be a lot of bad indie books out there because epublishing is so "easy" (not easy if you do it correctly, as I'm sure you know), but more and more writers are going to start seeing the value of going indie.

Irony? The comment I hear most often from our readers is how much they love how "different" our story is, how it avoids the sci fi cliches. "Too different" aka "Not marketable" was the main reason given by the Big Six publishers who rejected us.

Anyway, I rant. Short story: yes. But what you describe in web comics is much the same in the book world. Legacy publishing has been snail slow to react to changes in the industry, which is why The Zon now rules supreme.