You ever discuss law...

[Summer_Jasmine]

Thanks for the reminder Red Sonya - - I am going through a custody battle right now and the ex found some of my old posts on here (under a different name) and is using them as fodder in the custody battle. It can happen and it does happen so be careful.

 

[Rrrosyn]

Yep. And, hey for anyone who might be divorced/divorcing/unmarried but still seeking custody of your kids... this sort of damages your chances of success in the U.S. at least. The view is that you've got to be defective somehow. So... do not reveal this to the homestudy person, kay???

Sad, but quite true.

Only have had one person outside of former sub/lovers and my mother who I told and was surprised he understood. My former psychologist. He, however, did not write it in my file. He actually stopped taking notes during those parts of the session and all the file states is a need for control during sex due to being raped. Current psych consult for my regular physician does not know.

You really have to feel-out (not feel-up) people who may need to know. Doctor's, legal people, family, friends... most don't need to know. So sad to keep something that is just "the way it is" for us a secret.

 

[Rrrosyn]

Thanks for the reminder Red Sonya - - I am going through a custody battle right now and the ex found some of my old posts on here (under a different name) and is using them as fodder in the custody battle. It can happen and it does happen so be careful.

i am sorry to hear you have been and are being put through such.

 

[chris9]

It's sad that they use BDSM against you in cases like custody of children and such. But maybe they do have a point there. I know if I had kids, divorcing my husband/their father and then finding out that he like to tie women up and hurt them, I sure as hell would not want my children to be staying with him. In this it really doesn't matter if the other partner is dom or sub. Either being violent (and spanking and flogging and such can most certainly be seen as pretty bad violence) or having someone else saying what is to be done, deciding, would make me fight even harder to keep my children.
So, yes, it's really unnice, and *I* do see it different by being interested in the whole thing, talking to people about it, noticing how they manage their kids. But I most certainly understand that a vanilla person who one is fighting with will use it against one.
At least here it would be about the same as having weapons in your house. It's not considered 'right' for the children, because there are some dangers, it's not as the majority lives in the given society, not what children are supposed to learn...

 

[FurryFury]

Now wait a minute. How is having a gun like having adult BDSM play?

I really don't see it.

Then again I don't see a problem with having a gun either.

You keep it properly locked and you teach the kids how much destruction it can cause so they don't think it's a damn toy to be played with!

BSDM, is an adult activity that you do not show the kids the implements of or discuss with them unless they bring it up.

Now if you ex were the type you didn't trust and thought might just beat the kids that is a whole 'nother issue there and really where I live the courts don't give a damn. Unless you have outside documentation of sever abuse and or neglect kids are considered property of the biological parents. It is also assumed that being with the biological parent and accepting them because they are "a part of you" is healthy by the damn courts these days.

A few years ago joint custody was all the rage here. You had kids literally living out of suit cases and spending a few nights a week with one parent then the next. That has, thank goodness cooled down now because it was a nightmare for the kids who need routines. There has been so much trouble with those arrangements the courts have move away from it.

Honestly it was counterintuitive all along.

The legal system here in the states does not take the kids best interest as a priority most of the time and when they do, they often fuck it up. *grr*

Sorry that just set me off.

When I was constantly being threatened with being sued I had to study all this very well. I know the courts mostly don't give a damn about anything but horrible abuse and neglect. However the paranoia of being constantly threaten can get to you after a while anyway.

Fury

 

[Rrrosyn]

It's sad that they use BDSM against you in cases like custody of children and such. But maybe they do have a point there. I know if I had kids, divorcing my husband/their father and then finding out that he like to tie women up and hurt them, I sure as hell would not want my children to be staying with him. In this it really doesn't matter if the other partner is dom or sub. Either being violent (and spanking and flogging and such can most certainly be seen as pretty bad violence) or having someone else saying what is to be done, deciding, would make me fight even harder to keep my children.
So, yes, it's really unnice, and *I* do see it different by being interested in the whole thing, talking to people about it, noticing how they manage their kids. But I most certainly understand that a vanilla person who one is fighting with will use it against one.
At least here it would be about the same as having weapons in your house. It's not considered 'right' for the children, because there are some dangers, it's not as the majority lives in the given society, not what children are supposed to learn...

I don't think it matters. I believe the law will see it as mattering, but I don't see it. Sis is in a vanilla abusive marriage. He has hit her, almost ran her over with his car, spanks the kids, ignores them when they are hungry to the point that the 4 yr old has turned the stove on and made shell-filled scrambled eggs to feed her younger siblings. These things only happen when he is in a temper and normally he is not, so people excuse it.

On the other hand you have me. I flog my fiance. I bite him. I sodomize him with plastic. I tie him up, blind fold him and pretend to leave the room (I read in the corner quietly).

The difference is I refuse to have kids so it won't be an issue. But the fact is if people knew what I did to subbie, I'd be in the same situation as her husband when it came to the custody of the kids.

Now if a sub left their spouse would they "out" themselves to get the kids? (Or are we still discussing neighbor interferance?

 

[Pyro Paul]

... or even know your State laws?

All I know is I live in California and we DO NOT have a law of consent. No matter how many years you've been flogging you submissive wife/husband if your neighbors report seeing bruises and call domestic services you get arrested. You may not go to jail if subbie testicifes and doesn't press charges, but you can be scarred in the community. Gods forbid your sub/spouse decides they want "revenge" for something.

A Dom met a sub in northern California and her neighbor reported it. When he returned the next day (and he'd left his toys) for another session he was arrested. Supposedly, she was too embarrassed to admit to being a masochist that he spent a few days in jail. She didn't press charges, but didn't own up to enjoying it either. His career and life were ruined enough that he had to move. This was a "meeting for a scene" instance, but it made me find out that we have no consent laws here... that I can be charged years down the road, if a nosy neighbor were to report me. I am willing to bet other places don't have consent laws either.

Does anyone keep marks strictly out of sight for this reason? I never mark sub in any area his work clothing won't cover. Not even a hickie.

Are you in the closet enough about your lifestyle? I know my mother knows, my sister (who used to be sub's boss) knew. But since I don't have many friends locally, no one else does, or will! (Munch group excluded.)

Here we are trying to educate people about the differences... how?

i only have advice of how to solve the orginal problem. Laws of Consent can be interpreted if you are Bound by contract. (if you and them sign a contract allowing formal consent of all actions discribed in the contract for X period of time) This can be presented to a court as substantal proof (as long as the person being the 'submissvie' was not under the influence or frauded into signing the contract) to drop all charges of such accusations.

Now in modern court there are some states that say, You can not Give consent to have Assult (bodly harm) exspeicaly Sexual Assult done to you. But still a binding contract saying 'Yes i here by agree to...' is usualy enough to keep what ever happens in the dark, in the dark.

this contract (if you wish to fully reserch it) would some what fall under the medical burden consent catagory. (the Laws that say, You have to sign a paper to have a docter do surgury or anything harmful to you as it may kill you and you have given the doctor consent to do so there by acknowledgin the risks and are willing to endure what ever may happen.)


i hope this helps a little. and i hope i didnt just repost this of what some one else said

Pyro~
~Paul

 

[Rrrosyn]

i only have advice of how to solve the orginal problem. Laws of Consent can be interpreted if you are Bound by contract. (if you and them sign a contract allowing formal consent of all actions discribed in the contract for X period of time) This can be presented to a court as substantal proof (as long as the person being the 'submissvie' was not under the influence or frauded into signing the contract) to drop all charges of such accusations.

Now in modern court there are some states that say, You can not Give consent to have Assult (bodly harm) exspeicaly Sexual Assult done to you. But still a binding contract saying 'Yes i here by agree to...' is usualy enough to keep what ever happens in the dark, in the dark.

this contract (if you wish to fully reserch it) would some what fall under the medical burden consent catagory. (the Laws that say, You have to sign a paper to have a docter do surgury or anything harmful to you as it may kill you and you have given the doctor consent to do so there by acknowledgin the risks and are willing to endure what ever may happen.)


i hope this helps a little. and i hope i didnt just repost this of what some one else said

Pyro~
~Paul

From what I understood talking to a lawyer here in Cali. There is no allowance to consent to being harmed by another, especially in a sexual manner. You cannot consent to rape. Anyway he said the paperwork would be only a buffer and not a security against the law tossing me in jail.

 

[chris9]

Now wait a minute. How is having a gun like having adult BDSM play?

I really don't see it.

Then again I don't see a problem with having a gun either.

You keep it properly locked and you teach the kids how much destruction it can cause so they don't think it's a damn toy to be played with!

BSDM, is an adult activity that you do not show the kids the implements of or discuss with them unless they bring it up.

Now if you ex were the type you didn't trust and thought might just beat the kids that is a whole 'nother issue there and really where I live the courts don't give a damn. Unless you have outside documentation of sever abuse and or neglect kids are considered property of the biological parents. It is also assumed that being with the biological parent and accepting them because they are "a part of you" is healthy by the damn courts these days.

A few years ago joint custody was all the rage here. You had kids literally living out of suit cases and spending a few nights a week with one parent then the next. That has, thank goodness cooled down now because it was a nightmare for the kids who need routines. There has been so much trouble with those arrangements the courts have move away from it.

Honestly it was counterintuitive all along.

The legal system here in the states does not take the kids best interest as a priority most of the time and when they do, they often fuck it up. *grr*

Sorry that just set me off.

When I was constantly being threatened with being sued I had to study all this very well. I know the courts mostly don't give a damn about anything but horrible abuse and neglect. However the paranoia of being constantly threaten can get to you after a while anyway.

Fury

I did not say (or at least I really didn't mean) that I think that having a gun is like adult BDSM play. I just said that when you are fighting your ex-partner to keep your children, you will try to make him/her look uncapable of caring for them, providing them a home to grow up in safe and sane. And from the outside, if you don't know anything about BDSM, it does look scary and most certainly not right in a surrounding with children.
At least around here it may actually lessen your chances of getting the children when you have a new partner. And this IMO shows that if some sexual practices outside the norm come up, it will be used against you!
The reason I chose guns as a comparison was that it was the only thing that I could think of at that moment, and that having guns at home here is considered as something like a taboo (plus it's very difficult to obtain a license).

I agree that most times courts screw up about the best interest of the children. I know of a family where the mother got the children even though she doesn't care one bit for them (not even basic needs like food, clean clothing...), because the father works 12 hours plus a day and doesn't have the time to care for them. They wanted to stay with their dad, but court decided, since the mother doesn't work, she gets to have them.

I also agree that it's not right to talk about children like goods ('getting' and 'keeping' them). But first, right now I can't think of a better way to put it, and second, I know that many parents fight about their children like they are.

 

[chris9]

I don't think it matters. I believe the law will see it as mattering, but I don't see it.

The difference is I refuse to have kids so it won't be an issue. But the fact is if people knew what I did to subbie, I'd be in the same situation as her husband when it came to the custody of the kids.

Now if a sub left their spouse would they "out" themselves to get the kids? (Or are we still discussing neighbor interferance?

The first point is precisely what I was trying to say, only I wasn't able to put it in so few words

I think I was mostly thinking about a vanilla relationship that breaks where one partner is interested in BDSM. It was in a sort of answer to Summer_Jasmine, where her ex-partner found her stuff from Lit and uses it against her. I don't know anything about that relationship, but in my mind there came the scenario of one vanilla and one BDSM splitting.
I'm not sure if 'outing' would work as a sub. As a judge I think I would be more apprehensive of the children's well-being when the parent they are staying with gets involved in a relationship where the other partner has all the control. I guess if I had to make the choice I would rather give the custody to the dominant partner.
Those questions around custody/divorce and such are something I hope I don't have to have anything to do with when working...

 

[chris9]

From what I understood talking to a lawyer here in Cali. There is no allowance to consent to being harmed by another, especially in a sexual manner. You cannot consent to rape. Anyway he said the paperwork would be only a buffer and not a security against the law tossing me in jail.

I think I posted this before (not sure on what thread). In Germany the law about rape is that included into the definition is that it's without consent. So here consential rape cannot exist. There still is the proof problem, but that can most certainly be solved by a contract.
Seems to me quite logical, starting from the POV of the protected good, which is sexual self-determination. So if you determine your sexuality to include violence, that's fine, but no rape.

 

[FurryFury]

I did not say (or at least I really didn't mean) that I think that having a gun is like adult BDSM play. I just said that when you are fighting your ex-partner to keep your children, you will try to make him/her look uncapable of caring for them, providing them a home to grow up in safe and sane. And from the outside, if you don't know anything about BDSM, it does look scary and most certainly not right in a surrounding with children.
At least around here it may actually lessen your chances of getting the children when you have a new partner. And this IMO shows that if some sexual practices outside the norm come up, it will be used against you!
The reason I chose guns as a comparison was that it was the only thing that I could think of at that moment, and that having guns at home here is considered as something like a taboo (plus it's very difficult to obtain a license).

I agree that most times courts screw up about the best interest of the children. I know of a family where the mother got the children even though she doesn't care one bit for them (not even basic needs like food, clean clothing...), because the father works 12 hours plus a day and doesn't have the time to care for them. They wanted to stay with their dad, but court decided, since the mother doesn't work, she gets to have them.

I also agree that it's not right to talk about children like goods ('getting' and 'keeping' them). But first, right now I can't think of a better way to put it, and second, I know that many parents fight about their children like they are.

Okay I see where you are coming from. You know what I was thinking though Chris 9? I think here in America, women would be penalized more for BDSM in custody issues than men. Just an opinion, I'd have to study up on it more but my guess is women in general are more likely to be seen as unfit over things that many people wouldn't blink an eye at if a man were doing.

In most states custody still goes to the woman first. I like that because you'd have to pry my kids from my cold dead hands! LOL! However I have known some women who shouldn't have custody of their kids. When I hear about women who don't, I want to ask why? Did you let your kids go? Did you have things documented against you? Did your husband and his lawyer have unfair advantages. Yeah, I know there is a little judgement there and lack of tolerance that isn't characteristic of me but I'm human and complex. I just can't imagine not wanting and fighting for my kids.

*shrugs*

I saw something the other day. I forget who said it but it went something like this. Women will have equality when incompetent women are elected to office just as often as incompetent men. LOL! Right now women have to be much better to even be considered in most cases.

Wow! I am really spouting on some things today. *looks around for the duct tape to tape own mouth* I don't know what's gotten into me!

Fury

 

[Rrrosyn]

I think I posted this before (not sure on what thread). In Germany the law about rape is that included into the definition is that it's without consent. So here consential rape cannot exist. There still is the proof problem, but that can most certainly be solved by a contract.
Seems to me quite logical, starting from the POV of the protected good, which is sexual self-determination. So if you determine your sexuality to include violence, that's fine, but no rape.

Aye. Rape laws vary state to state here. But cannot be consented to. Just age and intoxication making it non-consensual. The fuzzy line is whether you can rape your spouse. Some small town judges here ignore the possibility, stating that marriage is consent to sex. Small town law-people can sometimes have too much power and the victims don't always know they can take things to a higher court.

 

[chris9]

Okay I see where you are coming from. You know what I was thinking though Chris 9? I think here in America, women would be penalized more for BDSM in custody issues than men. Just an opinion, I'd have to study up on it more but my guess is women in general are more likely to be seen as unfit over things that many people wouldn't blink an eye at if a man were doing.

I don't really know how it would be handled here. I don't think though that BDSM would be held more against a woman than a man. Especially if the man is dom, thus liking violence, thus not being safe for children. (I know that this isn't true, but would most likely be seen like that by court.)
I do think that there are some things a woman can do that a man can't. I'm mainly thinking of nuditiy and touching/kissing in public. At least around here, a man who walks around his house naked when neighbors can see will get into trouble, whereas a woman most likely won't. And guys hugging or even kissing in public, even if it's only the 'cheek-to-cheek' southern Europe way of saying hi, are immediatly thought of as gay, while women can walk hand-in-hand and noone blinks an eye or thinks anything.

In Germany it's usually the mother who keeps the children, too. I guess that's mostly because women are still seen as more likely to stay at home, and even when they work usually don't work as long and don't make as much money as the men. I'm glad for it, I couldn't imagine having kids and then someone taking them away from me...

 

[FurryFury]

I don't really know how it would be handled here. I don't think though that BDSM would be held more against a woman than a man. Especially if the man is dom, thus liking violence, thus not being safe for children. (I know that this isn't true, but would most likely be seen like that by court.)
I do think that there are some things a woman can do that a man can't. I'm mainly thinking of nuditiy and touching/kissing in public. At least around here, a man who walks around his house naked when neighbors can see will get into trouble, whereas a woman most likely won't. And guys hugging or even kissing in public, even if it's only the 'cheek-to-cheek' southern Europe way of saying hi, are immediatly thought of as gay, while women can walk hand-in-hand and noone blinks an eye or thinks anything.

In Germany it's usually the mother who keeps the children, too. I guess that's mostly because women are still seen as more likely to stay at home, and even when they work usually don't work as long and don't make as much money as the men. I'm glad for it, I couldn't imagine having kids and then someone taking them away from me...

Yeah I usually like it when the courts favor the mother.

I figure I grew them in my body. I fed them with my body. Gave up my sleep and well, mostly my life, for them, until they were older. You are NOT fucking going to take them away from me! LOL!

They'll leave soon enough on their own able to take care of their own place, cars, school and work.

Fury

 

[Summer_Jasmine]

Sorry that I kind of disappeared from the thread after I posted.

The odd thing about my marriage is while I earned the money he worked about 60+ hours a week for his family. Now that he finds out I am a "kinky bitch" he is ready to try to grab the kids away from me. It sucks that any judge would allow this to be a basis for custody of children.

Right now the arrangement is 50/50 and yes the kids go back and forth almost every night. We do try to keep things stable, they only cart back and forth a small bag with their lovies and blankies for sleeping and any shoes they'll need but damnit they are my kids. I have raised them.

 

[FurryFury]

Sorry that I kind of disappeared from the thread after I posted.

The odd thing about my marriage is while I earned the money he worked about 60+ hours a week for his family. Now that he finds out I am a "kinky bitch" he is ready to try to grab the kids away from me. It sucks that any judge would allow this to be a basis for custody of children.

Right now the arrangement is 50/50 and yes the kids go back and forth almost every night. We do try to keep things stable, they only cart back and forth a small bag with their lovies and blankies for sleeping and any shoes they'll need but damnit they are my kids. I have raised them.

That's so hard, not just on the kids but on you too.

I'm sorry to hear it.

*hugs*

Fury

 

[mdiaz451]

consent to battery - MA law

In Massachusetts, consensual battery is illegal. You cannot consent to let somebody do something illegal to/with you.

If I leave a mark on a sub, I can go to jail for it, if for some reason a cop wanders into my bedroom or hers... AND the sub does not have to testify one way or the other. I beleive there are mandatory arrest laws in place statewide.

I deplore domestic violence. It's terribly destructive, especially to children.

However, if I want to cane a nice womans ass (any volunteers in Boston?? Please?) and somebody calls the cops, I go to jail if they see "signs of domestc violence".

There are some good web pages with BDSM and the Law around - please read them - you might save yoruself a night (or 30 days) in the cooler and thousands of dollars in legal expenses.

 

[chris9]

There are some good web pages with BDSM and the Law around - please read them - you might save yoruself a night (or 30 days) in the cooler and thousands of dollars in legal expenses.

Saving money in legal expenses is NOT a good idea!
Yesterday we learned about some laws by the EU that are so very confusing that I got a headache. BUT good think, because everyone concerned will NEED a lawyer!

 

[.exposure]

Weird Sex Laws . com
I'm not postive as to how correct these ones are.

UTAH Laws
All sex with anyone but your spouse it outlawed.

Adultery, oral and anal sex, masturbation are considered sodomy and can lead to imprisonment.

Sex with an animal - unless performed for profit - however is NOT considered sodomy.

Polygamy - provided only the missionary position has been applied - is only a misdemeanor.

 

[m wisdom]

Weird Sex Laws . com
I'm not postive as to how correct these ones are.

...

Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA
A man is legally entitled to beat his wife with a leather belt or strap, but the belt can't be wider than 2 inches, unless he has his wife's consent to beat her with a wider strap. Consent should be given prior to the event, as is carefully stipulated.

 

[Rrrosyn]

Sorry that I kind of disappeared from the thread after I posted.

The odd thing about my marriage is while I earned the money he worked about 60+ hours a week for his family. Now that he finds out I am a "kinky bitch" he is ready to try to grab the kids away from me. It sucks that any judge would allow this to be a basis for custody of children.

Right now the arrangement is 50/50 and yes the kids go back and forth almost every night. We do try to keep things stable, they only cart back and forth a small bag with their lovies and blankies for sleeping and any shoes they'll need but damnit they are my kids. I have raised them.

RL definately comes first. That you did vanish after posting is a sign that you're more focused on your kids than kink.

Such a hard arrangement for you all. Good luck for you and the wee ones.

 

[Rrrosyn]

Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA
A man is legally entitled to beat his wife with a leather belt or strap, but the belt can't be wider than 2 inches, unless he has his wife's consent to beat her with a wider strap. Consent should be given prior to the event, as is carefully stipulated.

Now you have me wondering if city or state law would take priority.

 

[shy slave]

I have never thought about the law issue...I've got no idea what the law is in respect of BDSM in England...perhaps I'd best get studying

BDSM is a mix of things (as far as I can tell) in England, Wales (Scotland have different laws for some things).
As I understand it anal sex between gay men is ok, but not husband/wife or hetro couples.
There have been articles of people who make BDSM furniture as a side line being classed as perverted and losing their jobs, but they were not arrested.

In terms of bruising I think different police forces take a differing views.
My ex had been in the Met and he said as long as it was clearly consenting adults it was ok. But the social stigma is a different issue.

Bearing in mind we have the Criminal Record Bureau and a list is now kept by the Home office of people considered 'unsafe' but are not currently under arrest; it makes you wonder just how much 'Big Brother' is watching.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

BDSM, what's legal, what's not....

In the US, we have so many levels of jurisdictions that determining what's legal and illegal is a very dicey proposition. There is Federal law, each state has it's own laws, counties, cities and towns will have their own ordinances. Each jurisdiction may have some say in what we can, and cannot do.

I can speak a little bit about South Carolina law since I spent 17 years as a police officer here. For instance:

Battery is defined as an un-consented touching. If your bottom consents, it's not "assault and battery".

However, after years and years and bazillions of dropped A&B charges because the abused spouses would refuse to prosecute, SC passed a Domestic Violence Act, making an arrest by officers MANDATORY if there is any evidence of a violent act. Bruises, blood, damaged furniture or other items, etc. The victim's cooperation is not need and is frequently not expected. However, you have to be married, or divorced, or currently co-habitating, or share a child together, or be a close blood relative. Therefore, if you are boyfriend/girlfriend, not related by blood, have seperate residences, and no children in common, you cannot be charged with Criminal Domestic Violence.

As far as sex goes, if your partner is not your spouse, it's illegal.
If it isn't missionary position, it's illegal.
If you do it any place other than in your conjugal bedroom, behind closed curtains and a closed door, it's illegal.

And don't EVEN get me started on our obscenity statutes. Pretty much EVERYTHING you can think of kinkwise is obscene according to SC statute. Technically, disseminating information about this thing that we do (like at a munch or demo) is prosecutable. However, because our groups and events are generally not open to the general public, law enforcement doesn't really care about enforcing the obscenity laws.

When it comes to divorce, custody and visitation rights in SC, BDSM involvement CAN be considered by the judge. In my own case, the BDSM was part of the issue behind the divorce. The judge was pretty cool about it though. The divorce case was pretty tame as far as it goes. I didn't contest anything, gave the ex- pretty much everything (including the house I pretty much considered my home since my early teens since it was my mom's place before it was mine). I got unlimited, unrestricted visitation, so long as I didn't expose my minor children to my lifestyle. How cool is that?

My ex knew I wouldn't expose my kids to this so it wasn't bad, but I kept my scene involvement pretty low key because I did NOT want to get hauled back in court and have the judge yank away my visitation. Of course, now that the youngest is 18 and Family Court can't say diddley about my kids visiting their old man, or vice-versa, I'm OUT. Wooo-hooo!

Off-topic personal aside: What's funny is the ex and I get along better divorced than we did the last several years of our marriage. We were not in a lifestyle relationship, though I tried for a long time to get her to explore this with me. She was actually open to bottoming for a bit of kinky sex now and then, but the D/s thing just was not going anywhere. Two Dominant types trying to run things just doesn't work, ya know? I could have dealt with it if things were pretty well discussed and compromises were reached, but dayum, her idea of compromise was her way. *lol* And she wouldn't let me have a sub on the side, even for a strictly service oriented relationship and no-sex SM play.... *grins & shrugs*

Anyway, we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.