You Stink

[Laurel]

What stinks?

Steven King's crassness, the eloquent mysogyny and antisemitism of Shakespeare. The tedius monotony of Vivaldi. Mario Puzo's repulsive glamorization of the Mafia.

I don't care how well you say it, or spell it. If you talk shit, it stinks.

hehe


Believe it or not, we do have standards - and we do reject a fair amount of what is submitted. We reject for content issues (underage, for example) but also for factors that inhibit readability (lack of paragraphing, extremely poor spelling, etc.)

But part of the purpose of Lit is to encourage people - ALL people - to write, as well as to help those who do write well reach a larger audience.

Another thing to remember is that for many of our authors, English is not their native tongue. Many are just learning the language, and write erotica as a fun way of practicing their written English skills, as well as to share their culture with the rest of us. This is something to keep in mind when reading.

Also, while some come to Lit to read a well-written, well-told tale, others come here to find a writer who can bring THEIR specific fantasy to life. If they've always imagined being tied to a tree while their husband drips honey on their elbows, and they happen to find a story with that very fantasy here at lit, they're not going to necessarily quibble about split infinitives or passive verb usage.

Obviously, the better-written story will always appeal to readers - so long as it's well-told. Perfect grammar and spelling does not guarantee reader accolades. As has been pointed out on the forum before, Mein Kampf is very well-written technically, but a hideously boring and rather nasty read. Spelling and grammar rules are there to ease communication between an author and a reader, but they don't substitute for plot. If you read a story which shows the writer to be a good storyteller, but find there are technical problems that muddy it, drop the author a note. "Hi, read your story, you're a great storyteller but your grammar and/or spelling could use improvement, check out the links in the Writer's Resources."

I know what stories I like, what stories I find to be worthy. My list will differ from yours. Literotica isn't for just for me, or for you - it's for all of us. The wider variety of stories that are posted, the larger the audience your particular stories will have. And ALL readers are important. Books do not get on the NYT best seller list because only "literate" or "important" people read them.

The best way to improve Literotica is to give criticism. When you read a story with mangled grammar, take a moment to write the author a brief constructive letter - "Hi, I read your story, would've enjoyed it much more if your punctuation wasn't off. Try the links in the Writer's Resources" or something like that.

Constructive feedback from readers can and will improve a writer.

As we speak, I'm working to totally automate the Editor's Program. Once that's in place (won't be for a month or so), writers will have little excuse for poor writing. For now, have patience with the young'uns, and give them all the encouragement and help you can spare. Thanks for listening to me babble.

 

[Guest]

To quote Laurel.....

"As we speak, I'm working to totally automate the Editor's Program. Once that's in place (won't be for a month or so), writers will have little excuse for poor writing. For now, have patience with the young'uns, and give them all the encouragement and help you can spare. Thanks for listening to me babble."

Wow Laurel! I for one will be excited to take advantage of that!


I remain,

 

[Rusher]

Dr. M:

What ever happened to the Golden Rule? You shouldn't say something to someone in feedback that you wouldn't want them to say to you.

I've given feedback to people on stories I didn't think were that good, but I could always find something positive to say about it. Is it really that hard to give some sort of encouragement? Personally, I think a person deserves a pat on the back just for the attempt, even if it isn't great.

Besides, how can you (or anyone) know that the person you're saying doesn't have a clue won't be the next Faulkner if they keep at it and work hard?

 

[Whispersecret]

Is it really that hard to give some sort of encouragement?

Actually, sometimes it is. I've read stories that really had no redeeming quality. I suppose it all boils down to what Laurel said. The purpose of the site is not to provide readers with excellent erotic literature, but to provide writers a training ground. Whatever standards we'd like established aren't really relevant.

Still, I'd love to have the power of the "L." Who was it that suggested that? Oh, the power.

 

[PaulX35]

Whatever standards we'd like established aren't really relevant.

As a former student with anarchist sympathies, I still don't tend to agree with rule-obeying views all that easily

As Laurel said, this is a training ground, but isn't it us, the community of feedbackers that can - however slowly - start off stressing the importance of proper grammar, punctuation etc.?
We are already doing that, we are discussing the matter here. New posters will see that too, and maybe it will make them think, and think again, and eventually something may change.

I don't have kids, so I really lost contact with the way languages are being taught at schools nowadays. Furthermore, I assume these will differ between the many countries represented here. But judging from the bunch of replies to this thread I'd say this is a matter that is close to the hearts of all people who love and believe in the beauty of language as an important means of communication between minds.

I'd say that's a thing worth stressing, and worth feedbacking to people who may never have developed the awareness and importance of proper spelling.

I have decided to keep a shortlist of those new writers who I found lacked badly in careful spelling etc. My idea is to feedback that once, then see if they bothered at all. If a next story shows they didn't, then I won't bother to give them a second feedback.

I have the feeling that'll work for me. Any comments?

In the meantime, please keep feedbacking me on my English

Paul

 

[Laurel]

I don't think that providing a forum for writers to grow and satisfying readers with quality stories are mutually exclusive. If they were, I doubt we'd have 300,000+ readers daily.

As for what's worthless - that is, to a large degree, a subjective decision. People can make that decision themselves with the back button.

I've seen sites that only post stories that the webmaster enjoys. That's great for them - that's their decision. Such sites tend to have a much smaller readership, so the writers featured there - however talented - are given a much smaller audience.

I think it's our job to get writers an audience. I don't think limiting the appeal of the selection to what I personally like does the readers or the writers any favors. It may make ME personally happier because the site is full of stuff I like, but I'm not running Lit for myself.

All that said, that's just my opinion. There's as many ways to run a site as there are sites on the web. That's what makes the web (and the world) such a great place - diversity of opinion.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'm rather astonished at how I've been misunderstood (poor me). I'm not talking about the writer who needs some work on grammar or punctuation.

I'm talking about the author who posts something so execrable that you really don't know where to start in your criticism. Having received erotic story submissions on my own site, I know that there are people who believe that all they have to do is write down their favorite fantasy and they've written erotica. These people are so ignorant of the ways of literature that they have no idea of the awfulness of what they've written.

Analogy: I'd like to play center field for the Yankees. But if you saw me stumbling over my own feet on the field, are you going to give me pointers on hitting a slider or breaking up a double play?No. You're going to tell me to forget it. And as for Rusher's question "how do you know I won't be the next Babe Ruth"? Well, I guess you could make an educated guess.

And as for the golden rule: Yes, if I went out and made a fool of myself trying to play for the yankees, I would hope someone would come up to me and tell me that I stunk and was an embarrassment to myself and to the game.

That all being said, Laurel has made it clear that the rule here is to be constructive criticism, and I will adhere to that rule. So if I can't say anything good, I just won't say anything at all.


---dr.M.

 

[tim2uk]

As a newbie poster (although I've dipped in to the site over a period of years) I feel rather nervous proffering an opinion. However, may I relate this topic to my own experience?

I have enjoyed reading many of the stories posted here. Until recently, I was unaware that behind all the submissions there was a community discussing, editing, revising, criticising and improving the stories. This is due to my ignorance. Because I did not know about this community, if I found a story that was badly written, I simply hit the back button, as has been said.

If individuals are making a sincere attempt to write material that has literary merit, then criticism, good or bad, is obviously useful. Like dr_mabeuse's example - if someone is trying out for a professional team, be it baseball, football, rugby or whatever, and they simply can't cut it, then the MOST honest advice they can receive is to forget about it. If, however, they are writing as a hobby, a release or for fun, then I would opt for the "there are parts that could do with some work," approach. Making them feel small would seem, to me at least, to have little point.

That having been said, I am not fully aware of the purpose and aims of this site. If it is a place for people who aspire to be published and make a living from their writing, then dr_mabeuse is correct - if they are truly awful, then telling them is an act of kindness. If the site exists as an outlet for people's fantasies then I would be kinder to them.

If I may, here is an example. I am a regular on a board that hosts music. The songs are written and, for the most part, played by the members. Some put it up for criticism. The ones who are not very good, either as writers or musicians, tend to get the odd comment such as, "I like the overall feel, but the guitar sounds muddy and I would use a different snare sound." However, the guys who are REALLY professional and are trying to make a living out of their songs get really in-depth, extremely detailed criticism on every aspect of their work. This is because the members KNOW they are good and that the constructive criticism will only help to make them better. There is nothing worse than posting a song you have spent weeks on, only to receive comments such as, "I love it man - it's great!" Equally, "Your song sucks", doesn't help matters.

I get the feeling that it's the same here. The good writers ask for and accept detailed analysis of their work, knowing that it will improve their output. It may be kinder to hold back comment on the ones that "stink" unless they think they are going to make a living out of writing. I guess that's where I would draw the distinction.

My apologies for going off topic in the middle of my post, but I felt the analogy would aid my explanation. I also hope I have not been presumptuous as a newbie to get involved with a topic that is obviously key to long standing members of this group.

Cheers,

Tim.

 

[BigTexan]

So if I can't say anything good, I just won't say anything at all.

Dr. M.

That is the approach I have started taking. I read most of the requests for feedback, but if it stinks too bad, I just keep my mouth shut. Someone else will come along to give them good lip service or no one will and they'll get the message (they may not understand it though).

BigTexan

 

[Whispersecret]

As Laurel said, this is a training ground, but isn't it us, the community of feedbackers that can - however slowly - start off stressing the importance of proper grammar, punctuation etc.?
We are already doing that, we are discussing the matter here. New posters will see that too, and maybe it will make them think, and think again, and eventually something may change.

Oh, I think I've been misunderstood. I can't see myself withholding honest criticism from someone who asks for it, even if their stuff stinks. I will NEVER say, "You stink" or "Your stuff stinks." I could never be that harsh, unless the person was an asshole. (And even then, I've been known to curb my tongue in an effort to take the higher ground.)

So, even if Laurel wants to create an erotic Petrie dish for writers, I am not obligated to share that philosophy or even foster it. (No offense, Laurel. You know I like you tons.)

I am one of those people who believes that the proper use of English is mandatory, and if you don't care to get a grasp on that, you have no business submitting stories. It's a slap in the face of your audience not to make an effort to clear your story of errors.

I will never really understand why people will blithely shrug off mistakes as unimportant or not worth the bother. Is it denial?

 

[Moyds_jewel]

shuddering in sympathy

Everyone here has said it better or more thoroughly than I. So..I'll just second the ranting re: poor grammar and spelling.
About the only thing that ruins a story more for me is poor formatting.
And I blush to admit that, after carefully formatting my first story in word and uploading, it was all for naught. (I do NOT understand java and did not find these boards until after posting.) mea culpa.

I offered to edit for an author once because I liked the way he wrote but shuddered over his spelling. He wrote back a very polite note to the effect that all editors were demons from hell and I could go f*** myself.

Here's hoping he's ''impailed hisself on a danglin' participal.'' heh.

 

[Laurel]

That all being said, Laurel has made it clear that the rule here is to be constructive criticism, and I will adhere to that rule. So if I can't say anything good, I just won't say anything at all.

lol! No, no. I didn't mean you can't tell authors they suck. You have total and complete freedom to do and say whatever you like short of libel. If you can deal with the flaming responses, go for it. Sometimes it makes you feel better to express yourself.

 

[Rusher]

Dr. M:

Your analogy about CF for the Yankees is just so ridiculously out of place that I hardly know where to begin deconstructing it.

Suffice it to say: if someone saw you were a lousy outfiedler, would you want them to say you suck, you're hopeless, go home? Or would you rather they say, here's how you can improve, and maybe baseball isn't for you. They could point you to another sport, or another position, but encourage you to keep trying. You probably wouldn't be CF for the Yankees, but maybe you'd end up being happy being a really good 2B for your local softball team.

But that's not even the point. We're talking about writing, not athletics. What you need to be a good writer is an idea and a voice, and you can find those right up to the point where they pry the pencil from your cold dead hand. That's why I'm in favor of providing some sort of encouragement to writers. You just never know when the light bulb will go on inside the head of a writer and they'll find their voice. But if some tinhorn editor-wannabe tells them early on they're hopeless, they won't keep trying, and that would really suck.

And last but not least, I read a couple of your stories. You suck.

 

[Rusher]

A question Dr. M:

I see some of the people who post their photos on this site, and I think to myself this person is really fat and unattractive... Should I post a reply saying "you fat ugly galute, quit posting and hide your head in shame"?

 

[Guest]

two cents

Welcome, Tim!

No need to apologize for going "off topic". Perhaps I'm ADD, but I appreciated the analogy.

Over on the Authors' Hangout BB we went around about "non-authorial" threads at the Authors' Hangout. It got a little warm.

Whose standards should be held? Who should decide what is appropriate and what should be moved to the General BB?

I think that we are having a similar discussion here. So, I will recycle my thoughts... I am sooo environmentally conscientious.

Let the market decide. Threads (or bad stories) that don't belong, in the majority opinion, will just be ignored. They will drop off the bottom of the page quickly enough if left unanswered.

The spam posting today regarding some novel was irritating, but what was more irritating to me was that people's responses kept it floating at the top of the page.

"But wait! What about the soft-hearted souls who give feedback to anyone who asks for it? They'll keep crappy stuff around forever."

Not that I've noticed.

And those soft-hearted souls are the ones who have kept this BB going and made it a safe enough place where more timorous new writers aren't too intimidated to post.

Besides, no one is making anyone read anything here.

b

 

[jadeserenade]

"Would you step up to the microphone if you've never carried a tune in a wheelbarrow?"

Obviously, you've never been to a karaoke bar....

 

[PaulX35]

A reply from...

I see some of the people who post their photos on this site, and I think to myself this person is really fat and unattractive... Should I post a reply saying "you fat ugly galute, quit posting and hide your head in shame"?

I don't think you should, and I also think the parallel is slightly inadequate: you can't change how you look, but you can change how well you write, and that was part of the issue, I think.

I think most points of view have been exchanged meanwhile. I liked the remark on "let the market decide". Many of us have ambitions, and some couldn't really care what a bunch of - in their eyes - overaged and overzealous people (not offending anyone! think are necessities for a good story.

So, let's get writing again, and enjoying good feedback

Paul

 

[Rusher]

You can't change how you look?

It's called diet and exercise. Look into it.

 

[SlickTony]

I am one of those people who believes that the proper use of English is mandatory, and if you don't care to get a grasp on that, you have no business submitting stories. It's a slap in the face of your audience not to make an effort to clear your story of errors.

I will never really understand why people will blithely shrug off mistakes as unimportant or not worth the bother. Is it denial?

It's purely amazing where you will find this POV. About 13 years ago I was working for a small publishing company in Natchez, MS. My job started out consisting of typing classifieds for a tabloid from forms people sent in, but I ended doing all sorts of stuff later on, like layout, ad copy, fillers and even some articles. My bosses thought I was being weird and anal for caring about spelling and proper English. I thought their attitude was a damned strange one for people getting their living by the print medium

Laurel, I've got a technical question for you--since I've seen you post in here, I'm figuring you'll read it and be able to answer it.

My latest submission, "Encore," had some formatting foulups. Large blocks of it were in italics that shouldn't have been, and I figure that this was the result of submitting it as a Microsoft Word document, and that someone had to go and put html code where all my italics went. The problem looked exactly like the sort of thing that results from putting <i> at the beginning of something and not putting in </i> at the end of the phrase. I have posted to several bulletin boards besides this one and I have done it myself. Fortunately I have usually been able to get in and edit my posts (many of the BBs I've posted to give you a half-hour limit to edit, and after that it's irrevocable).

My question is, would it make it easier on you guys--the formatting people, that is--if I submitted everything in plain text and put in the html code myself?

 

[emesangels]

wow after reading some of these posted replies to a commentary about telling authors they suck, I must say I am little ashamed to think I have writing ability (albeit, I had great teachers and have a knowledge of writing style). I have let others not on this site read my stories and I have used their feedback (fairly close friends of mine) to tweak my stories somewhat.

I must say that there are some good points on this post and then there are some rather ridiculous points as well, comparing sports to writing is a ridiculous point.

We are all novices at some point and had to get criticism from someone who was not a novice and thereby, more experienced and qualified to give the criticism. I am sure that everyone who posted their first story somewhere was nervous about how it would be accepted.

I was when I wrote my first story. I do not consider myself an expert in any means. I do know that most stories have a voting section on them and if you do not like the story, vote it as a poor story or don't vote at all. If you like the story, vote it at the higher end of the scale.

In all the responses to the original post, I can see where everyone is saying the same thing. If the person truly sucks and has no ability whatsoever to convey a storyline, then yes they should be told point blank, but they also should be given pointers on where to look for help or even what was so atrocious about his/her story. If the story totally does not make sense, then the writer needs to know this - it doesn't flow, it jumps around too much, it is too wordy, et cetera. If the story has any potential at all, then I think the writer should be given a chance to improve on his skills, fine tune himself or tweak his stories to be more acceptable in the writing realm of this site.

I would encourage all upcoming authors to use all available sites to help them in any way possible. Use the editors before posting a story and get feedback, ask your friends to read the stories for you (asking them to be critical enough to help you out), and of course please use common sense. If your only goal is to jerk off to some written words, you can do that to Playboy or Hustler; but if your goal is to really tantalize the erotic being in us, then utilize your sources (there are many sites on the web that can direct a writer, even if not towards erotica). Perhaps write a story that is nonerotica first and then move to erotica. But whatever the means you chose to writing any story and getting it "published" or posted, please remember to use your common sense about it.

To all the newbies (myself included) keep your heads up and don't let a few bad words deter you from perhaps achieving a goal in your life. To all the experienced writers out, I applaud you for having the courage to start somewhere and take the criticism and run with it to make it to where you are now. Without writers, the world would be pretty dull.

Hope my stories get the criticism they need and deserve but that they are also of the right material to hopefully be published one day. - To all of you - happy writing

 

[emesangels]

you suck!!

okay one more thought on this topic - I want honest criticism of my stories not just to be told that I suck. Any criticism that is constructive is welcome. Any criticism that just says I have no potential or that I suck is not welcome because that is not constructive. It is also not honest. Obviously wannabe writers are here for a reason to see if they really have what it takes to be a writer. So if any of you read my stories and criticize, please be honest with the criticism, as I try to be with others who have posted stories here -


http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=72175

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=72174

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=72176

 

[ladyphoenix]

when the dr. is in

*throws dr. m a kiss and a supportive smile*

 

[gauchecritic]

I've said this in another thread and I'm going to repeat it here just to make a point.

One of the best, raunchiest and involving stories I have ever read on this site was also one of the most poorly written, the title and author escapes me (as do all titles and authors).

It was an incest story, it was short (always frustrating) it had quite a few spelling errors and the grammar was coloquial to put it mildly.

But I felt, as I read it, that it had happened, that I was witnessing a voyeurs dream, having proxy sex.

Maybe it's because it was presented in an 'honest' fashion it stayed in my memory, no pretentions to art, no literary 'gimmicks' just a plain tale.

By way of contrast/comparison, one of the best s/f stories I have ever read is 'Flowers for Algernon', a diary type of affair where the author begins as an esn character who becomes, by means of surgery, a brilliant mind and then returns to a state lesser than his origins.

I very much doubt that the author of the first was as 'educated' as the author of the second but both stories held me enthralled.

So much for literary worth.

Gauche

PS I agree with Rusher