Your Degree?
- Thread starter Pure
- Start date
SpectreT said:
so how do you define humiliation Spectre? Its one of my limits too I think, in that I hate to be made to look a fool - certian positions I find intensely foolish and therefore unerotic and uncomfortable. On the other hand being embarrassed or slightly humiliated in a sexual fashion is erotic for me.
I guess what I'm saying is that for me there is a difference between humiliation that is derived from a non-sexual act or position - being dressed down in public by my partner or boss is one example; and then humiliation that is purely sexual - being told off for being a dirty little slut during playtime would be an example of that!
hope that made sense!
G
Guest
Guest
Limits stated and unstated.
Here's to Lilredwolph! (applause).
[LRW]
I have to ask why when somebody says I have/had "No Limits" do people assume that a Dom/me will lose their mind and start asking things like, will you kill for me? will you die for me? will you rob a bank for me? A sub having limits is not the only thing that keeps a Dom/me sane.
[snipped]
Just because a sub drops their need to have limits doesn't mean a Dom/me will drop their need to be sane. SS&C are still in affect just because somebody says "no limits" doesn't mean all bets are off and anything goes.
Sorry for going on about this but it really bothers me when anyone just assumes my Dom would ask me something so screwed up just because I have no limits set, he is a highly sadistic Dom but he is not a psycho.
[end/]
Cym seems close to agreeing, partly, in stressing the need for choosing a master. Yet even she appears worried about being asked certain things, that might, she thinks, happen without her setting/stating limits.
Lilred correctly, IMO, stresses the relationship. Further, though some couples like to write everything down in a pre-nup, including sex and who's on top, most of us don't function that way
(though when a divorce comes, we sometime regret it).
Adopting Lilred's approach makes the 'limits' issue 90% very simple, though the threads go on and on. The simple point are:
1) Everyone, esp. a woman, should take precautions when meeting strangers, esp. if sex is involved; this includes 'safe calls', double dates, etc. and letting the stranger know 'limits' ('not up the ass with that nightstick, thank you'). This also applies to those whom one has met but doesn't know well.
2) Everyone, esp. a vulnerable person, does best to get to know their sexual/erotic partner, so that he or she, not being a 'psycho' knows where to tread lightly or not at all.
NONE of this has any particular relation to bdsm, despite the endless postings. These points cover most of the ground, though there are loose ends.
On the 'results' so far; very honest it seems.
THANKS ALL!
If I may give an opinion:
The commonness of the 6th degree is, i think, tied up with this limits problem, since that degree, imo marks one's having one's toe in the door of deeper submission. (I'm not getting into, 'what's 'true' submission?' and semantics debates.)
At the most mundane, the 6th degree sub is saying, "This Friday,
9-12 pm, so my SO isn't suspicious, and you are not to ...[use fire, cut me, pierce with large bore needles, choke, use a knife, or bring in any barnyard creatures]"
We might ask, 'who's calling the shots, here?'
But clearly the limits do, in one respect, make perfect sense, IF the person is a stranger or somewhat unknown. Yet one might ask,
Is this 'sub' perhaps a bit of a 'danger' freak, of the 'Looking for Mr. Goodbar' sort? Why is s/he putting her safety on the line, like this? (And if she wants danger, telling her 'rules' isn't going to have much effect. Like telling a rebellious teen to 'call mommy' if there's trouble.)
Lilredwolph's approach, of which Cym is quite aware, is to say, "What's the state of the relationship. Get to know the person very well." In that case, of course there is likely a de facto limit:
no nipples will be burnt off. BUT there is no *limit-setting* or *limit stating* by the sub, as so many posters go on and on about. Every partnership/marriage has these 'limits in practice' and it's not primarily to do with bdsm.
End of speech.
J.
__________________
Limits, Stated and Unstated, and Why care
Here's to Lilredwolph! (applause).
[LRW]
I have to ask why when somebody says I have/had "No Limits" do people assume that a Dom/me will lose their mind and start asking things like, will you kill for me? will you die for me? will you rob a bank for me? A sub having limits is not the only thing that keeps a Dom/me sane.
[snipped]
Just because a sub drops their need to have limits doesn't mean a Dom/me will drop their need to be sane. SS&C are still in affect just because somebody says "no limits" doesn't mean all bets are off and anything goes.
Sorry for going on about this but it really bothers me when anyone just assumes my Dom would ask me something so screwed up just because I have no limits set, he is a highly sadistic Dom but he is not a psycho.
[end/]
Cym seems close to agreeing, partly, in stressing the need for choosing a master. Yet even she appears worried about being asked certain things, that might, she thinks, happen without her setting/stating limits.
Lilred correctly, IMO, stresses the relationship. Further, though some couples like to write everything down in a pre-nup, including sex and who's on top, most of us don't function that way
(though when a divorce comes, we sometime regret it).
Adopting Lilred's approach makes the 'limits' issue 90% very simple, though the threads go on and on. The simple point are:
1) Everyone, esp. a woman, should take precautions when meeting strangers, esp. if sex is involved; this includes 'safe calls', double dates, etc. and letting the stranger know 'limits' ('not up the ass with that nightstick, thank you'). This also applies to those whom one has met but doesn't know well.
2) Everyone, esp. a vulnerable person, does best to get to know their sexual/erotic partner, so that he or she, not being a 'psycho' knows where to tread lightly or not at all.
NONE of this has any particular relation to bdsm, despite the endless postings. These points cover most of the ground, though there are loose ends.
On the 'results' so far; very honest it seems.
THANKS ALL!
If I may give an opinion:
The commonness of the 6th degree is, i think, tied up with this limits problem, since that degree, imo marks one's having one's toe in the door of deeper submission. (I'm not getting into, 'what's 'true' submission?' and semantics debates.)
At the most mundane, the 6th degree sub is saying, "This Friday,
9-12 pm, so my SO isn't suspicious, and you are not to ...[use fire, cut me, pierce with large bore needles, choke, use a knife, or bring in any barnyard creatures]"
We might ask, 'who's calling the shots, here?'
But clearly the limits do, in one respect, make perfect sense, IF the person is a stranger or somewhat unknown. Yet one might ask,
Is this 'sub' perhaps a bit of a 'danger' freak, of the 'Looking for Mr. Goodbar' sort? Why is s/he putting her safety on the line, like this? (And if she wants danger, telling her 'rules' isn't going to have much effect. Like telling a rebellious teen to 'call mommy' if there's trouble.)
Lilredwolph's approach, of which Cym is quite aware, is to say, "What's the state of the relationship. Get to know the person very well." In that case, of course there is likely a de facto limit:
no nipples will be burnt off. BUT there is no *limit-setting* or *limit stating* by the sub, as so many posters go on and on about. Every partnership/marriage has these 'limits in practice' and it's not primarily to do with bdsm.
End of speech.
J.
__________________
Limits, Stated and Unstated, and Why care
Sandia
Very Experienced
- Joined
- May 24, 2002
- Posts
- 6,461
Pure said:
Thank you for starting this thread, Pure. (I'm bumping it back up on purpose.)
My answer: 5., maybe 6.
5. True submissive PLAY sub
Really gives up control (though only temporarily; only during brief "scenes" and within limits) and gets his/her main satisfaction from serving and being used by the dominant - but only for FUN purposes, usually erotic. (May or may not be into pain, but if so, is turned on by pain *indirectly*, ie: enjoys being the objects of one's partner's sadism, on which the submissive places few requirements or restrictions.)
6. Uncommitted short-term but more-than-play semi-slave
Really gives up control (though usually within limits); wants to serve and be used by the dominant; wants to provide practical/non-erotic as well as fun/ erotic services; but only when the "slave" is in the mood. May even act as a full-time slave for, say, several days at a time, but is free to quit at any time (or at the end of the agreed upon several days). May or may not have a long-term relationship with one's Mistress/Master, but, either way, the "slave" has the final say over when he or she will serve.
There is a difference between a "pure" slave, and two people who are "playing" at it for sexual and psychological reasons and fulfillment. And a difference between peeps who are doing for both psychological and sexual reasons, and those who are doing it purely as kinky sex.
IMHO.
As a practical matter, the slave always has the final say: as someone said, even the choice not to make choices is a choice.
I hope there'll be more responses on this.
Thanks again, Pure.
Sandia.
Degrees/Levels
Pure
First let me say thanks for posting this. I am fairly new to this side of sex and this was helpful in determining to what level/degree I am. I would say I rate from #2 through #5. Since all of the things we explore fall in these levels. Now the degree of pleasure/pain I'll take is a whole different thing and most definitely MUST be discussed prior to even beginning to explore this side of sex. Of course the degree you are willing to go to is one of the top things that needs to be talked about and agreed to prior to. Its a bit tough to just kind of wing it as you go along in my opinion. This could lead to some bad experiences and eventually turn a person off from exploring this side. In other words: Discuss-Communicate-Talk!!!!
Pure
First let me say thanks for posting this. I am fairly new to this side of sex and this was helpful in determining to what level/degree I am. I would say I rate from #2 through #5. Since all of the things we explore fall in these levels. Now the degree of pleasure/pain I'll take is a whole different thing and most definitely MUST be discussed prior to even beginning to explore this side of sex. Of course the degree you are willing to go to is one of the top things that needs to be talked about and agreed to prior to. Its a bit tough to just kind of wing it as you go along in my opinion. This could lead to some bad experiences and eventually turn a person off from exploring this side. In other words: Discuss-Communicate-Talk!!!!
SubbieHubbie
Experienced
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2002
- Posts
- 40
I'm throwing up my hands in despair at trying to work out a number and risking being flambeed by the whole group. I don't know whether to talk general situation, absolute situation, triggered-by-memories-of-abuse-so-unable-to-respond situation, religious commitment situation (we both performed binding ceremonies and pledged to obey), health-inspired-necessity situation or what.
Frankly, depending on what hat I put on to answer the question, I could be anything from an absolute master to an absolute slave. *sigh* It all depends. Boy do you guys ask some difficult questions.
Frankly, depending on what hat I put on to answer the question, I could be anything from an absolute master to an absolute slave. *sigh* It all depends. Boy do you guys ask some difficult questions.
Sandia
Very Experienced
- Joined
- May 24, 2002
- Posts
- 6,461
Snazz, I think you're absolutely right, and
SH, I do hope you'll share some more on this. You brought up a lot of interesting sounding things. religious commitment, triggered by memories, health situation... I hope you'll tell more of what you're talking about. What does the "obey" part of your ceremony mean to you? Was it unusual to have it in both sets of vows?
Sandia.
SH, I do hope you'll share some more on this. You brought up a lot of interesting sounding things. religious commitment, triggered by memories, health situation... I hope you'll tell more of what you're talking about. What does the "obey" part of your ceremony mean to you? Was it unusual to have it in both sets of vows?
Sandia.
G
Guest
Guest
Snazz - to followup:
"Love, honor and obey" is traditionally the female vow - my understanding is that it actually dates back to when women were, legally, little more than chattel. The traditional male vow is "Love, honor and cherish." Indeed some people, on finding out, have questioned why we would do such a thing. It, in a large part, ties into the religious stuff, and has been used in a few cases, where, through various reasons, one of us is refusing to take adequate care of ourselves, and the other demands something be done. We obey. This, for that moment, gives the demander almost total power. Now, if one of us demanded the other take their lives, I'm not so sure we would obey (do not know). That being said, if my wife's health were to be damaged beyond repair, and she told me she didn't want to die alone, I would check with the God and Goddess, to see whether I was permitted to die with her. To conclude, what does obey mean to us? It gives the recognition that at certain times we BOTH have a better ability to judge what is good for the other and an acceptance of obeying such commands.
Religious Commitment: I do not ask ANYONE else to share my/our beliefs, but since asked for further information only ask not to question the accuracy of the belief for us (I have been called 'damned' and 'crazy' long enough thanks). We are pagan. We conducted binding rituals, asking that we be made a part of each other, connected to each other, in every way. In this sense, of soul mates in the truest sense of the word, there will always be the respect of equals. Did the binding work? Well, we believe so having had one or another of us sick at one time or another, and the other knowing about it because of feeling a minor form of the same problem at the same time.
Triggered by Memories: Both survivors of sexual and emotional child abuse, with severe physical child abuse for one of us too, there are a number of things we absolutely respect about each other without the need to set limits on them. Further, limits are absolutely respected for the same reason. Also, when something does happen to trigger emotional discord, whatever is being done is immediately stopped to support the one troubled. In this way, even when we do sub/dom, there is always the chance of the dom becoming subordinate for a time.
Health situation: Personality wise, I tend to be at least marginally subordinate/submissive to my wife. I yield more easily, go with the flow more easily, and am not as driven or decisive. That said, she has several chronic illnesses, two of which can be fatal, another of which can be crippling. That being the case, there are many situations where I have had to become dominant, either in the hospital (when ER nurses are yanking and tugging on her impatiently, I call my wolf totem, and have made them back down to treat her with respect with a single statement: normally "You're hurting her!" said in a voice which says "Don't!"), or in the home (there are only so many days you can swallow 20 pills without getting so sick of it you have to be ordered to take them).
Hopefully this explains why its difficult to say which area on the scale I fall. Depending on the situation, I am mildly submissive, fully commanding/controlling or fully submissive. Hopefully this didn't confuse or bore anyone too much.
"Love, honor and obey" is traditionally the female vow - my understanding is that it actually dates back to when women were, legally, little more than chattel. The traditional male vow is "Love, honor and cherish." Indeed some people, on finding out, have questioned why we would do such a thing. It, in a large part, ties into the religious stuff, and has been used in a few cases, where, through various reasons, one of us is refusing to take adequate care of ourselves, and the other demands something be done. We obey. This, for that moment, gives the demander almost total power. Now, if one of us demanded the other take their lives, I'm not so sure we would obey (do not know). That being said, if my wife's health were to be damaged beyond repair, and she told me she didn't want to die alone, I would check with the God and Goddess, to see whether I was permitted to die with her. To conclude, what does obey mean to us? It gives the recognition that at certain times we BOTH have a better ability to judge what is good for the other and an acceptance of obeying such commands.
Religious Commitment: I do not ask ANYONE else to share my/our beliefs, but since asked for further information only ask not to question the accuracy of the belief for us (I have been called 'damned' and 'crazy' long enough thanks). We are pagan. We conducted binding rituals, asking that we be made a part of each other, connected to each other, in every way. In this sense, of soul mates in the truest sense of the word, there will always be the respect of equals. Did the binding work? Well, we believe so having had one or another of us sick at one time or another, and the other knowing about it because of feeling a minor form of the same problem at the same time.
Triggered by Memories: Both survivors of sexual and emotional child abuse, with severe physical child abuse for one of us too, there are a number of things we absolutely respect about each other without the need to set limits on them. Further, limits are absolutely respected for the same reason. Also, when something does happen to trigger emotional discord, whatever is being done is immediately stopped to support the one troubled. In this way, even when we do sub/dom, there is always the chance of the dom becoming subordinate for a time.
Health situation: Personality wise, I tend to be at least marginally subordinate/submissive to my wife. I yield more easily, go with the flow more easily, and am not as driven or decisive. That said, she has several chronic illnesses, two of which can be fatal, another of which can be crippling. That being the case, there are many situations where I have had to become dominant, either in the hospital (when ER nurses are yanking and tugging on her impatiently, I call my wolf totem, and have made them back down to treat her with respect with a single statement: normally "You're hurting her!" said in a voice which says "Don't!"), or in the home (there are only so many days you can swallow 20 pills without getting so sick of it you have to be ordered to take them).
Hopefully this explains why its difficult to say which area on the scale I fall. Depending on the situation, I am mildly submissive, fully commanding/controlling or fully submissive. Hopefully this didn't confuse or bore anyone too much.
SubbieHubbie
Experienced
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2002
- Posts
- 40
The above is mine, apologies for lack of identity.
SubbieHubbie
Experienced
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2002
- Posts
- 40
Martini those questions... Any Time, Any Place, Anywhere... at least, with respect to privacy that is. You can ask me anything you want, I have the good sense and good manners to politely reject answering if I feel unable to.
